Let 5 at the back die.

We dont' have a shit team.

We could sign the best 2 players from every other team in the world and then pick an 11 from that, and redcafe would still think they were all shit or "deadwood" if we put a poor manager in charge of them.

And I don't think our team is actually all that, but we certainly have better players and resources than some teams who are both better and play better football than us.

We were also a better team before Amorim took charge than we are now imo. Or at best about the same. Despite the general consensus being our signings since then have been good. Something there doesn't add up. Either the tactics are bad or the manager is taking players and making them worse (or imo both one and the same thing).
 
I agree with Amorim when he says it's not the system. We've seen good performances and bad performances with this formation. The good performances coincide with high effort and intensity from the players, the poor performances coincide with low effort and intensity from the players.

We were 0-1 down at home to 10 man Everton and the players did not press at all like I've seen them do in other games recently. They didn't want to be there, they gave up and that's the real problem.
 
We could sign the best 2 players from every other team in the world and then pick an 11 from that, and redcafe would still think they were all shit or "deadwood" if we put a poor manager in charge of them.

And I don't think our team is actually all that, but we certainly have better players and resources than some teams who are both better and play better football than us.

We were also a better team before Amorim took charge than we are now imo. Or at best about the same. Despite the general consensus being our signings since then have been good. Something there doesn't add up. Either the tactics are bad or the manager is taking players and making them worse (or imo both one and the same thing).
Our squad is at minimum very decent, top 6 or better. What we have lacked for several seasons is a capable manager, one who used the squad to its strengths
No pity for the players who are paid a fortune, but they haven't had a good manager for years.
 
Our squad is at minimum very decent, top 6 or better. What we have lacked for several seasons is a capable manager, one who used the squad to its strengths
No pity for the players who are paid a fortune, but they haven't had a good manager for years.

Yep. I mean I would be harsher and say competing for top 6 is the squad's level, but even then, Amorim has it nowhere near that

...and I actually think it's hard and actually quite pointless to judge the squads real level/potential when our best players are misused and others who are clearly useful frozen out entirely.

When you have Bruno as a CM, right footed fullbacks as left wingbacks, wingers as wingbacks or no10s etc. you aren't finding out what the squad can do, you are just finding out what you already know it can't do. Like trying to use a spoon to cut a steak and then judging how good a spoon it is based on the outcome. You already know your answer, which is that you don't know how to use a spoon.

Mourinho's quote that if you die by your ideas your are stupid couldn't more perfectly sum up where I think we are under Amorim
 
If that’s a suggested back 4, why is Dalot anywhere near it?
 
Yep. I mean I would be harsher and say competing for top 6 is the squad's level, but even then, Amorim has it nowhere near that

...and I actually think it's hard and actually quite pointless to judge the squads real level/potential when our best players are misused and others who are clearly useful frozen out entirely.

When you have Bruno as a CM, right footed fullbacks as left wingbacks, wingers as wingbacks or no10s etc. you aren't finding out what the squad can do, you are just finding out what you already know it can't do. Like trying to use a spoon to cut a steak and then judging how good a spoon it is based on the outcome. You already know your answer, which is that you don't know how to use a spoon.

Mourinho's quote that if you die by your ideas your are stupid couldn't more perfectly sum up where I think we are under Amorim
Absolutely. Imagine getting the chance to manage Manchester United at such a young age and then throwing it all away because you refuse to change your formation to adapt to the squad.
Everyone can see we didn't and don't have the squad for his preferred way, but he continues to try and force a square piece down a round hole.
 
Absolutely. Imagine getting the chance to manage Manchester United at such a young age and then throwing it all away because you refuse to change your formation to adapt to the squad.
Everyone can see we didn't and don't have the squad for his preferred way, but he continues to try and force a square piece down a round hole.
I think, you and many others are putting too much focus on the formation rather than the system. I mean, I get it, it is intertwined but it isn't the same and it isn't as if the formation suddenly made very good players look bad. The majority of players sucked long before - all in 4atb formations. Our fullback options were poor even though United fans were creaming themselves over Shaw than Dalot for "having great technique" or "being good athletes" despite those players never contributing in attack at all. Same goes for the midfield options - don't get me wrong, putting Bruno in the centre next to Casemiro is a different kind of stupid but lets not act as if those two suddenly become great with either Ugarte or Mainoo added on top - their weaknesses don't just go away. Our inexperienced young striker issue is also not in connection with the formation.
I also don't see it as a back 5 - it is a back-3 with wingbacks, so if those wingbacks focus too much on defense, the execution is bad. And additionally, I don't think it should be looked at as 3 CBs - fairly sure the idea is to have one player with a tradition CB skillset while the others are more FB-CB hybrids, comfortable in big spaces and comfortable in pushing up. It isn't this exotic thing only Amorim does - 3-2 or 2-3 defensive shape when out of the ball is very common, I'd say almost the current default.

It looks as if we made the decision to be pragmatic this season, not care about possession or control, just be somewhat compact and then try to hit hard and quick. It is a solid plan and it has shown us some results. But it will struggle against packed defenses. Knowing our soft underbelly it was a decent bet to assume not many teams would go down that route against us but the red card almost forced Everton to do so. Before, they were on top of us which wasn't a great look, BUT it would have opened up space for us to attack into. And the scene that resulted in the red card is proof of that.

The formation isn't inherently bad. It's just a shape, starting positions. But just as any other system out there it requires the players to fulfill their roles and if they don't do that, a mere change of shape won't change much. For the last like 8 years there is one constant at United - being uncomfortable on the ball so trying to get rid of it as soon as possible, hectic, rushed gamestyle without nuance to it. Thats the demon we have to engage, not a fecking shape.
 
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I agree with Amorim when he says it's not the system. We've seen good performances and bad performances with this formation. The good performances coincide with high effort and intensity from the players, the poor performances coincide with low effort and intensity from the players.

We were 0-1 down at home to 10 man Everton and the players did not press at all like I've seen them do in other games recently. They didn't want to be there, they gave up and that's the real problem.
Bingo
 
Unless you are into low block counter attack ball. Forget a back 4 system that will make Casemiro viablecwith our current defence. Unless you into torturing yourself watching him pair Ugarte.
There's absolutely more ways to skin a cat, you can make a very decent midfield with Casemiro, Mainoo and Bruno if you pick from what we have available to us right now.
Ten Hag practiced chaos ball leaving Case exposed alone with no chance to cover the midfield.
 
Thank you for avoiding the confusion, as I got scared.

I don't think the formation is very bad, though. But the execution isn't very consistent. It improved before the international break, so for that alone I'd be willing to wait a bit for them to "get warmed up" again. But overall I'm not entirely sold on the execution and durability of the tactic.

When the team is close to 50-60%, maybe even 40-60%, it generally stands a good chance, but any below turns into too much pressure on the back 3 to 7, while anything over 60% puts too much emphasis on lacking elements of this squad in this setup.

The tactic seems to try to overwhelm the opposition with a lot of players at once, while having a decent cover for counters against aided by the midfielders and wingbacks running back, but as a sort of back-and-forth game with a slight possesion-dominance or a relatively comfortable counter based situation, it seems pretty potent, but even if i.e. the City goals were moments of mental absence/mistakes, it does seem tactically prone to any mistake made with no Plan B ready (enough) to cover for any mistake. Perhaps City is a bad example, especially when Haaland and the passers are in good form, but I'm not sure if the signs are there that it was just mistakes vs good side being fatal, instead of a tactical deficiency. But with the current state of United it might be okay to consider the team not ready for survival against the strongest oppositions.

Which is okay. But when you're against the bus parkers, it becomes a little too apparent that it's relatively safe to let United try to figure out how to get past or around it, and you notice that the formation doesn't allow for that much creative variance. Players like Bruno, Amad, Cunha, Mount, Mbeumo, possibly Dorgu, Zirkzee, Mainoo when in form, can individually create something, but when only one, maybe even two, are in some kind of form, I don't know if it's enough to fall back on besides maybe a lucky break or mistake from the opposition (+ the sharpness to punish it like Haaland did)

Some games it does look really good and since the uprise only just began to show how it looks when it does in fact "tick", so to consider it a lost cause rather than something needing (different) tweaks and adjustments, is a little premature, I think, but I hope it get addressed to a degree that it's not just crying whenever Cunha or something isn't able to join, or that moving Amad out of RWB makes most of your 'plan' impossible. Of course level of the player, especially the level they match your tactics, matters, but I think it would be naive, imo.

Sometimes naive is a positive stubbornness, and it's lead various managers to (often initially surprising) great successes, but that doesn't mean it always leads to success in the same way and under every single type of circumstance. Sometimes I'm surprised how club cultures and even the managers (or others involved) switch the success of a creative solution that came from a specific change to the exact shape of that particular solution, rather than the creative and adaptive of it all.

Like how Ajax became (to the fanbase) the 4-3-3 club and that being the only way to succeed with possession-based football, instead of total football with creative or technically well rounded players. I think ETH is a little better at adapting than Amorim, but they are both a bit attracting danger with their respective ways of stubborn decisions and behaviours. Both of them succeeded with sticking to a philosophy or analysis of current football demands and their squads' assets.

Did Amorim even begin at Sporting with this formation? Because the way he decided on it, could be the "way" to go, instead of just blindly aiming for the "it" (just exaggerating to clarify, as he does make adjustments to his tactics now and then). ETH had multiple set ups at Ajax, all 4-3-3 on paper, but rather something like 4-2-1-3 and 3-4-3 in practice, both tactics that were shaky and had ETH be deemed "past it" or "overrated" until they overpowered various sides without it being lucky overperformances against strong sides from the best leagues.

I think he started out that way at United, too, similarly in his second season, but I think him sending back Reguilon was a big example of his approach-shift around that time. He had a tactic seemingly built on his best XI, and workarounds to create something between that best plan and the make-do plan B to make it at least okay until the players improved/adapted/returned/were replaced, but Reguilon was sent back because Malacia and Shaw were deemed almost ready by the medical staff. We all know how that ended. So many players out injured, players who didn't end up joining, and other plans either just didn't come to fruition at all. But from then on ETH just kinda stuck to that tactic that really only worked a few times when they brought other teams down to chaos with them, to beat them with experience, and that was obviously inconsistent. In his interviews you noticed the shifts as well, he was always a bit weird and direct, but now it was a bit more volatile, and a lot less cute or charming.

Start of this season we heard that shift in tone from Amorim as well, so the better run of form later might be just in time for him to at least believe in himself and the squad, but it also shows the cracks are there and could show a vulnerability to it all. And one thing that is worse than an overly stubborn manager (or player, or anyone really) is an overly stubborn manager that doesn't really believe in what he's stubborn about. So while he stays, I hope he does at least believe in what he preaches, especially if he's willing to defend it with his life.

Perhaps the 5 at the back could be less of an issue if an Amad-less wings approach doesn't leave those positions with the same importance. Maybe start out with someone like Mainoo (or Mount?) instead of Casemiro, or just change players' responsibilities and priorities when circumstances, availabilities, oppositions and their weak spots change.

Eventually Mount got on for Maz and Amad moved to the right, while Mainoo replaced Casemiro later, too, but with Zirkzee and Mainoo with so little minutes in their legs, it's kind of naive to expect such a change to have a definitive success, even if you expect less from them than you generally do Sesko/Cunha and Casemiro/Bruno/Mount. And that is without even diving deeper into how substitutes are a great tool, but a changing of tactics asks quite a lot of adaptions that goes beyond just the players who came on. In that sense even the Maguire for Yoro sub we saw earlier was one of the better ones, as this shift is one most of the (starting) players know, so they also know more easilty what this change generally asks of them.

Mount for Amad was sensical beforehand as Mount as an option made a lot of sense due to his personal flexibility, but if Amad started on the right and Mount in L10, the formation's major change would be Zirkzee for Sesko. Both for Zirkzee, Amad, and everybody who is used to some interplays developed during the season, I think their times would have been better. Now they started kinda 5-2-3 and moved to 3-4-3 or 3-4-1-2 (or kinda 4-4-2/4-3-3ish) in the second half. With the amount of subs, and some missing elements that are usually a part of earlier similar adaptations like this, I think it isn't that weird that a lot of people looked worse than just a few weeks ago.

I think it could be good to have the option of the wingbacks being actual wingbacks/offensive fullbacks vs wide midfielders/extra wingers with more stamina-demands, there, and it should be useful to have a type of security option there, but then the team should be able to adapt beyond just those particular wingbacks of the day adapting to the responsibilities of a wingback vs fullback or winger or 10, etc. But I think the changes for the Everton game were a bit too many than what seemed before, and it's not really surprising it looked worse.

It was way worse than that even, and I'm not trying to defend anyone, but I think this might have been Amorim falling for the trap he laid for himself and sees the core of his tactic being putting people in the positions he wrote down for his 3-4-2-1 formation, without (fully?) realizing that placing Mazraoui there instead of Amad, and then put Amad there again, means the creation of two different positions in practice. Even at his most offensive, Mazraoui vs Amad in the same place would be like a RWB or RMF (if simplifying the small but significant change to highlight through exaggeration again), instead of just having two different options for the same position. The option is great, but we've seen that the practice really isn't there (yet). If it makes the comparison easier, it's the same when replacing Mbeumo with Mount. Sure, it could work, but if you ask them to replicate the other's main tasks and think it's a faster version with a better finish vs a better passer who turns more easily (idk), you know you missed the fact that one will be more of a midfielder and one more of a forward.

Zirkzee could be a clear misfit or not good enough or anything, but it's too easy to single him out and forget the fact that you also need to work around the actual possibilities. He is a different type of player, let alone striker, than Sesko, but his best games is when other players were close to him and he isn't an isolated forward. He can hold up and when warmed up his passes are pretty good, too, but especially when he's got 1-2 options, etc. Especially when he hasn't played much, why make it even harder to use his best assets and skills than would have been the case if all he had to do was replace Sesko (and even both Sesko and Cunha)? Why make things harder for yourself and your players, all to have Mount on the bench and preserve your precious little formation (on paper)?

Again, I get the decision, but I think in this case keeping the option of Mount on the bench wasn't a good one, as it meant even more changes to the whole team's approach than just replacing the ones out injured. Think even starting Mainoo (or Bruno) at 10 would have been the better choice here if you wanted Mount's flexibility for the second half. I also understand Mazraoui covers Dorgu better when they want to shift to a 4 at the back as they often do when one of the wingbacks is higher up the pitch, but it really was a bit overly optimistic to have a (practically) 5-2-2-1 on the field when to of your starting forwards are out for the game. He really could have done more to make his lesser (talented or in-form doesn't even matter) players look better than what happened this weekend.

Hindsight is easier, and analysis isn't objective here, so I do think it's important to not bash and judge Amorim or even his ideas here, but,

[TLDR] While 5 (or 3) at the back is totally fine as at least an option, the stubbornness of Amorim could really break him if all he's willing to defend is the set up on paper and not the problem-solving in game. Hope this game helps to at least realize some of the players' and overall squad's vulnerabilities, and to better gauge how changes to the XI affect the players beyond the literal individual replacements and their respective independent forms.
 
There's absolutely more ways to skin a cat, you can make a very decent midfield with Casemiro, Mainoo and Bruno if you pick from what we have available to us right now.
Ten Hag practiced chaos ball leaving Case exposed alone with no chance to cover the midfield.
Casemiro can't carry Mainoo, + Bruno will not support them enough. We already saw that experiment fail under Ten hag. People just want to keep deluding themselves it was just ''ETH methodology". The ONLY way it would be viable is playing low block, slow possesion or counter attack ball. Which our fan base would still bemoan.
 
I think, you and many others are putting too much focus on the formation rather than the system. I mean, I get it, it is intertwined but it isn't the same and it isn't as if the formation suddenly made very good players look bad. The majority of players sucked long before - all in 4atb formations. Our fullback options were poor even though United fans were creaming themselves over Shaw than Dalot for "having great technique" or "being good athletes" despite those players never contributing in attack at all. Same goes for the midfield options - don't get me wrong, putting Bruno in the centre next to Casemiro is a different kind of stupid but lets not act as if those two suddenly become great with either Ugarte or Mainoo added on top - their weaknesses don't just go away. Our inexperienced young striker issue is also not in connection with the formation.
I also don't see it as a back 5 - it is a back-3 with wingbacks, so if those wingbacks focus too much on defense, the execution is bad. And additionally, I don't think it should be looked at as 3 CBs - fairly sure the idea is to have one player with a tradition CB skillset while the others are more FB-CB hybrids, comfortable in big spaces and comfortable in pushing up. It isn't this exotic thing only Amorim does - 3-2 or 2-3 defensive shape when out of the ball is very common, I'd say almost the current default.

It looks as if we made the decision to be pragmatic this season, not care about possession or control, just be somewhat compact and then try to hit hard and quick. It is a solid plan and it has shown us some results. But it will struggle against packed defenses. Knowing our soft underbelly it was a decent bet to assume not many teams would go down that route against us but the red card almost forced Everton to do so. Before, they were on top of us which wasn't a great look, BUT it would have opened up space for us to attack into. And the scene that resulted in the red card is proof of that.

The formation isn't inherently bad. It's just a shape, starting positions. But just as any other system out there it requires the players to fulfill their roles and if they don't do that, a mere change of shape won't change much. For the last like 8 years there is one constant at United - being uncomfortable on the ball so trying to get rid of it as soon as possible, hectic, rushed gamestyle without nuance to it. Thats the demon we have to engage, not a fecking shape.
The players made themselves look bad all on their lone some with lack of intensity, purpose and concentration in their play. It had zero to do with how they were set up. They did every single basic in the book wrong. Rendering any set up and system instructions utterly moot
 
This thread was inevitable really, as no one really likes a back three and want to do away with it at the first opportunity. That probably includes some of the players.

What's weird is if you want to play 6 and your fullbacks to overlap, then you end up with the same bloody formation, but apparently that's ok.
 
I agree with Amorim when he says it's not the system. We've seen good performances and bad performances with this formation. The good performances coincide with high effort and intensity from the players, the poor performances coincide with low effort and intensity from the players.

We were 0-1 down at home to 10 man Everton and the players did not press at all like I've seen them do in other games recently. They didn't want to be there, they gave up and that's the real problem.
Have to agree with this, I don’t like the system we play as it doesn’t suit the players we have at all, but you are correct, we have two types of game days, one where they decide to put in the extra effort and ones were they simply can’t be arsed.

You can tell for minute one what your going to get from us, we very rarely have it in us to change our mindset once the game starts.
 
I agree with Amorim when he says it's not the system. We've seen good performances and bad performances with this formation. The good performances coincide with high effort and intensity from the players, the poor performances coincide with low effort and intensity from the players.

We were 0-1 down at home to 10 man Everton and the players did not press at all like I've seen them do in other games recently. They didn't want to be there, they gave up and that's the real problem.

The system is a problem when there is a commitment to only ever using one system irrespective of what players are available, form, the opposition and every other variable.

We play a system that places huge emphasis on wingbacks and we only have one who is any good. That’s clearly a huge problem and it’s one the manager created and compounds.
 
The only justification for 3 at the back is getting Amad and Mbeumo on the pitch at the same time. We've looked decent down the right with those 2, and Amad actually does the offensive work of a WB, rather than just a RB.

Most coaches would have the flexibility to change their tactic based on the available players and game state. Not Amorim.

We could have 5 CBs injured in a must win home game against Wolves, and he'd still play a back 3 with Casemiro and Mainoo as CBs.

No coach has ever frustrated me the way Amorim does
 
I agree with Amorim when he says it's not the system. We've seen good performances and bad performances with this formation. The good performances coincide with high effort and intensity from the players, the poor performances coincide with low effort and intensity from the players.

We were 0-1 down at home to 10 man Everton and the players did not press at all like I've seen them do in other games recently. They didn't want to be there, they gave up and that's the real problem.

30+ points from 30+ games prove otherwise.

Anyway, if it's not the system, he's the coach that have been coaching the team for 1 year. Also, we've spent 250m during his tenure. So if he can't get these players to play into the system for ONE fecking year that he called is not the issue, then HE IS the issue. One or two players playing shite is understandable. But if the whole team giving lethargic performance, only idiot won't place the blame on the manager.


A 4-4-2 under Sir Alex Ferguson will be different than a 4-4-2 under Simeone.
 
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It’s never “back 5”. It sounded so defensive. It’s actually back 3 with 2 wingbacks and it’s a very attacking pressing shape that can be solid when defending .(If done correctly with the right type of players that is). We are living in the past if we want 442 back.
 
Which is okay. But when you're against the bus parkers, it becomes a little too apparent that it's relatively safe to let United try to figure out how to get past or around it, and you notice that the formation doesn't allow for that much creative variance. Players like Bruno, Amad, Cunha, Mount, Mbeumo, possibly Dorgu, Zirkzee, Mainoo when in form, can individually create something, but when only one, maybe even two, are in some kind of form, I don't know if it's enough to fall back on besides maybe a lucky break or mistake from the opposition (+ the sharpness to punish it like Haaland did)
While I agree with the observation, it has to be said that this applies to every formation under the sun, not just to 3atb systems, Amorims specific 3atb system or Amorims attempt to have United play such a system. Every formation will suffer when players are either out of form or for other reasons incapable of not fulfilling the roles they have based on the instructions. We won't be able to find a system that guarantees good form forever.
Like how Ajax became (to the fanbase) the 4-3-3 club and that being the only way to succeed with possession-based football, instead of total football with creative or technically well rounded players. I think ETH is a little better at adapting than Amorim, but they are both a bit attracting danger with their respective ways of stubborn decisions and behaviours. Both of them succeeded with sticking to a philosophy or analysis of current football demands and their squads' assets.
I wouldn't agree with this. ETHs adaptation was throwing away his ideas after the first two defeats. One might say he put his ideas to the backburner and played a style that was fairly similar to Ole ball in his first season. In his 2nd season, he tried to force it though, making a few daring decisions like putting more focus on press, keeping his winger wide and play with two nominal 10s. A very difficult challenge, made even worse by bad luck with injuries. I don't think there is much between ETH and Amorim when it comes to adaptability - I would have agreed 7-8 weeks ago that Amorim is a little more stern but it turned out, he seems to have put his ideas of control on the back burner as well. The only difference is that Amorim is associated with a back-3, a thing that even the most clueless fan is able to see and which is probably the reason, why he is considered so adverse to change.

Casemiro can't carry Mainoo, + Bruno will not support them enough. We already saw that experiment fail under Ten hag. People just want to keep deluding themselves it was just ''ETH methodology". The ONLY way it would be viable is playing low block, slow possesion or counter attack ball. Which our fan base would still bemoan.
The players made themselves look bad all on their lone some with lack of intensity, purpose and concentration in their play. It had zero to do with how they were set up. They did every single basic in the book wrong. Rendering any set up and system instructions utterly moot
Completely agree

The system is a problem when there is a commitment to only ever using one system irrespective of what players are available, form, the opposition and every other variable.

We play a system that places huge emphasis on wingbacks and we only have one who is any good. That’s clearly a huge problem and it’s one the manager created and compounds.
The current system has nobody out on the wing but those two players - that means there are more than enough players between the centre and the half spaces that should be able to do something. I can see why people are frustrated when the see Dalot, Maz and Dorgu out there - but thats a personal issue, not a formation or style one. Those players wouldn't be great as fullbacks either, and who thinks that this wouldn't be much of an issue has a fairly big blind spot of the football developments of the last 20 years.

Anyway, if it's not the system, he's the coach that have been coaching the team for 1 year. Also, we've spent 250m during his tenure. So if he can't get these players to play into the system for ONE fecking year that he called is not the issue, then HE IS the issue. One or two players playing shite is understandable. But if the whole team giving lethargic performance, only idiot won't place the blame on the manager.
He might be the issue. But I think it is important to be precise when trying to define a problem because it has big influence on the possible solutions. System, Formation and Manager are put together in here and thats not a good thing. Be critical about the manager, be critical about how the players execute the system and be critical about how Amorim potentially isn't able to get his ideas across.
But thats a different debate than "Lets please play a back-4"
 
I agree with Amorim when he says it's not the system. We've seen good performances and bad performances with this formation.

Amorim has managed, what, 38 league games now? Are we really saying that unless all 38 out of 38 were terrible performances, then the system can't be an issue?

There's variance, there's individual quality, there's the fact we're a professional football team, that means we'll sometimes play well.

The system is just sub-optimal, particularly for the squad we have. We have some good players who will make it work occasionally, but I'm convinced we could be better than this under a standard 4231.
 
Amorim is too rigid as a coach and cannot adapt to changes in the game or to opposition changes. He started off with 5 at the back and finished the game with the same formation against 10 men. We conceded (yet again) from a midfield overload where no one tracked the movement of the opposition player. Consistently even with 10 men, Everton were a threat again through the middle. Amorim decides to replace like for like by hooking off Dorgu and Maz, shifting Amad to WB and bringing on Mount and Dalot. Still we short in the midfield but then he takes of Case and leaves Mainoo (short of minutes) and Bruno (positionally indisciplined) to control the midfield. We also left with Dalot at LWB who has to cut back to his stronger right foot and a way below sorts in Shaw who refuses to go forward anymore and chooses the safe passing options backwards or sidewards. Really we were too predictable and all Everton had to do against us was to force the play to the left and let Shaw and Dalot decide who was going to play the ball back or across the park. When Amad or Mbuemo got the ball Everton just had to mark Zirkzee in the box and frustrate us into taking shots outside the box. Buildup was too slow and we had no dynamic player upfront to play intricate touches and passes to break the Everton backline. I understand our attacking options were limited but in a situation like this perhaps taking off one of Shaw or Yoro and keeping Case, Mainoo and Bruno in midfield would have troubled Everton more. Case always comes up with goals for us so taking him off with more than 30 min to play was a little mind boggling.
 
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Oh by the way I am still trying to figure out why we started out so defensively with 5 at the back against Everton at home and not with Amad at RWB. Perhaps playing Bruno as one of the 10s (or even Mount) and starting with Mainoo next to Case would have been the way to go.
 
It looks more like 5-2-2-1 half the time. Vile stuff on the eye.
 
Casemiro can't carry Mainoo, + Bruno will not support them enough. We already saw that experiment fail under Ten hag. People just want to keep deluding themselves it was just ''ETH methodology". The ONLY way it would be viable is playing low block, slow possesion or counter attack ball. Which our fan base would still bemoan.
It's not a delusion though, Ten Hags way of playing kept leaving a single midfielder exposed. Of course it's possible to play a midfield of 3 that will suit us.
 
It’s never “back 5”. It sounded so defensive. It’s actually back 3 with 2 wingbacks and it’s a very attacking pressing shape that can be solid when defending .(If done correctly with the right type of players that is). We are living in the past if we want 442 back.
What we played against Tottenham and Everton was a back 5. Clear back 5.
 
I agree with Amorim when he says it's not the system. We've seen good performances and bad performances with this formation. The good performances coincide with high effort and intensity from the players, the poor performances coincide with low effort and intensity from the players.

We were 0-1 down at home to 10 man Everton and the players did not press at all like I've seen them do in other games recently. They didn't want to be there, they gave up and that's the real problem.
I’m afraid that clear instructions and motivating your team is a key component of a managers job. If the players are playing like they don’t want to be there then that’s on the manager ultimately
 
It's not a delusion though, Ten Hags way of playing kept leaving a single midfielder exposed. Of course it's possible to play a midfield of 3 that will suit us.
It is most certainly a persistent delusion. Because folks constantly refuse to take into account the kind of players United has available as midfielders right now! Casemiro is our only sound postional DM and his legs are gone. Mainoo floats around too much to be a good partner for him and isn't robust enough defensively to help him out. Bruno who IS remains too attack minded and roam prone to make the midfield a 3. Let alone pair him infront of a 4. Ugarte who could pair Casemiro with the right defensive and physical protection is not a progressive passer and is in the worst form of his career.

Yet the delusion we'd "suddenly be better " In a 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 persists:lol:
 
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Oh by the way I am still trying to figure out why we started out so defensively with 5 at the back against Everton at home and not with Amad at RWB. Perhaps playing Bruno as one of the 10s (or even Mount) and starting with Mainoo next to Case would have been the way to go.
We became "a back 5" because our players did not do the basics hence there was no intensity, purpose, collective nor movement in their play. They played like 11 individuals on a pre season kick about. Carrying out zero tactical instruction.

One can't compare the Brighton game at home vs the Everton one, for example and actually believe it was tactical instruction that was the problem.
 
I think a lot of that is down to personnel. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of times at Sporting Amorim played wingers in the wingback positions (ala Amad) against weaker opponents. He doesnt really have that option at United because we dont really have any wingers outside of Amad. We have a ton of 10s or wide forward type of players like Cunha, Bruno, Mbuemo, etc. But you couldnt play any of them as a wingback.

I keep bringing up personnel because its our biggest problem with this system. I dont think the system in inherently bad or that it wont work in this league. But our current squad doesnt have players with the right attributes or flexibility to play this formation. We need a much different type of player in midfield. We need higher quality wingbacks. And we wide wide attackers that can play in the 10 roles at times and wingback roles in other situations, depending on the opponent. We need another good summer window to address a lot of this and Im not confident Amorim will be here or have the backing by that time.
Yeah, but that is part of my point too. If you don't have the personnel, don't try to shoehorn them into this nonsense. Especially when it's been made clear repeatedly over a year that most of the time it doesn't work.

Based on their performance vs Everton, I would gladly get rid of most of them, but since this isn't FM, it has to happen more gradually. And in order not to get relegated, sacked or "lose the lockerroom" as the Americans say, then you have to try to play a system / formation / set of instructions that the players currently playing for the club are able to execute with a certain degree of success.
 
(as a tactic, not the 5 themselves for avoidance of any confusion).

Lammens

Dalot De Ligt Yoro Dorgu

Casemiro Mount

Mbeumo Fernandes Cunha

Sesko

All but 3 or 4 replaceable of course, but the 5 at the back thing is driving me nuts. Dalot and Dorgu can stay as full backs and shouldn't be often anywhere near the penalty area, so useless are they in the attacking third.

I'm fed up with "recycling" the fecking ball around the back 5 too. Get it asap to Mbeumo Fernandes or Cunha and drive forward. At every fecking opportunity. With urgency too please. And if someone can't hack it, sub them off after 60, latest.
Except it's not really 5 at the back is it. The case against the formation/system can be made without misrepresenting it.
 
Casemiro can't carry Mainoo, + Bruno will not support them enough. We already saw that experiment fail under Ten hag. People just want to keep deluding themselves it was just ''ETH methodology". The ONLY way it would be viable is playing low block, slow possesion or counter attack ball. Which our fan base would still bemoan.

Casemiro can't cover Bruno and Mainoo but spends his time basically covering for Bruno in a 2? Where nearly every game we are overrun in midfield interesting take
 
I agree with Amorim when he says it's not the system. We've seen good performances and bad performances with this formation. The good performances coincide with high effort and intensity from the players, the poor performances coincide with low effort and intensity from the players.

We were 0-1 down at home to 10 man Everton and the players did not press at all like I've seen them do in other games recently. They didn't want to be there, they gave up and that's the real problem.

The question is, does the system, in any way shape or form, get the very best out of our best and most productive players, while covering for some of the deficiencies in the team?

Isn't that the point of any system? Emphasise the strengths and cover the weaknesses. Amorim is doing the opposite.

This is the crux of this. We are weak in the wing back possition, yet we are playing a system that relies on having two productive wing backs. We don't have one specialist wing back.

We are also weak at center mid and this system removes a body from there. We have one player in Case who is on the slide, playing with Bruno who is uncomfortable in there.

The only player i think this system helps is Luke Shaw, due to the fact he has lost his legs and wouldn't get in the side at left back in a back four.
 
Please, can someone mercilessly kill the idiot 343 tactics once and for all? It asks far too much of footballer to be converted into wingbacks to excel in defense and attack. Once in a blue moon you'll find unicorn footballers who excel at both but more often than not you have to settle for Amad, who excels in attack but not defense and Dalot and Dorgu who excel at neither. If you can find one who excels at both, you've hit the jackpot, but it's next to impossible to find two who excel. And even then, injuries are inevitable so you really need three, if not four, who excel at a position almost no one is developed for as a youth player.