Let's bust some myths about Manchester United

[Jezpeza]

Indeed and the idea anyone compares the time we gave Fergie to the 8 years we're wasted under Moyes, Van Gaal, Mourinho and now Ole because we thought other clubs would be impressed we were 'different' is a joke.

Ferguson was one of the most sought after managers in the game. He'd broken the Old Firm strange-hold in Scotland and had European success with lowly Aberdeen. He got time because before he stepped foot in the door his CV demanded it. He was an exceptional manager before he even got here. How the feck that's been turned into this idea that anyone with a pro-licence and a boiled egg could turn up and must be given three or four years because 'look at Fergie' is as hilarious as it is disrespectful.

I agree to some of that. He took Aberdeen from nowhere to the league and european cup. Watching his documentary they trained in the local park! I think this more than proved his acumen, as well as proving he wasnt afraid of trying to build something up. Its is Worth noting though that Scotland wasnt where football died in those days and the following year Dundee made the semis in the european cup.

At the time he took us over we had done nothing for most of the 70’s and 80’s. I think that we knew we needed to give him time.

The difference between him and Moyes, LVG, JM, OGS is they already had a decent platform to build on. Moyes had title winners and champions league football. I dont think until this season we have had a squad with the quality to win the league but failures to get top 4 and lack of cup silverware etc has been an abject failure from all mentioned. OGS should have two UEFA cups, no debate. The squad is brilliant now, maybe needs a bit of attention at cm.

I can see a bit of a Lampard situation here - he built a bloody good squad but couldnt manage it. Tuchel came in, made one signing and they have been totally clinical.

 

[Gordon Godot]

I agree to some of that. He took Aberdeen from nowhere to the league and european cup. Watching his documentary they trained in the local park! I think this more than proved his acumen, as well as proving he wasnt afraid of trying to build something up. Its is Worth noting though that Scotland wasnt where football died in those days and the following year Dundee made the semis in the european cup.

At the time he took us over we had done nothing for most of the 70’s and 80’s. I think that we knew we needed to give him time.

The difference between him and Moyes, LVG, JM, OGS is they already had a decent platform to build on. Moyes had title winners and champions league football. I dont think until this season we have had a squad with the quality to win the league but failures to get top 4 and lack of cup silverware etc has been an abject failure from all mentioned. OGS should have two UEFA cups, no debate. The squad is brilliant now, maybe needs a bit of attention at cm.

I can see a bit of a Lampard situation here - he built a bloody good squad but couldnt manage it. Tuchel came in, made one signing and they have been totally clinical.

If you agree with 'some of that' not sure what you disagree with. Its spot on, the whole post Fergie mantra that we as a club give managers time is not true. We had been through plenty of managers in the past, the fact was the club hierarchy knew that the club neede rebuilding from bottom up and also that Fergie was the most promising manager of his generation. What he achieved at Aberdeen was phenemonal, but more importantly showed he was a winner. Something that Moyes and Ole never was or will be, and for LVG and Mou their glory days were well behind them. The problem we have is the club hierarchy is clueless, well shown by Murtough smiling and waving as he arrived today. Even more depressing is that Fergie was at Carrington today and is backign Ole. Why? We need to start looking forward and bring in a VDS or similar who understand modern football. Its pathetic from top to bottom.

 

[Jezpeza]

If you agree with 'some of that' not sure what you disagree with. Its spot on, the whole post Fergie mantra that we as a club give managers time is not true. We had been through plenty of managers in the past, the fact was the club hierarchy knew that the club neede rebuilding from bottom up and also that Fergie was the most promising manager of his generation. What he achieved at Aberdeen was phenemonal, but more importantly showed he was a winner. Something that Moyes and Ole never was or will be, and for LVG and Mou their glory days were well behind them. The problem we have is the club hierarchy is clueless, well shown by Murtough smiling and waving as he arrived today. Even more depressing is that Fergie was at Carrington today and is backign Ole. Why? We need to start looking forward and bring in a VDS or similar who understand modern football. Its pathetic from top to bottom.

What I think needs discussion is the time aspect. When you employ a big name big cv manager there is a shift in expectation. That they deliver straight away. So if someone comes here like that they could be gone again in 12/18 months. Also, look at LVG and his transfer dealings - sold some good young players for peanuts like Chicaroto, Rafael, Evans, almost for the sake of it. I would say his time here was the most destructive to the club. We’d need to avoid that happening again

 

[FootyGirl88]

This is very unpopular opinion, but I'm going to type it anyway even though I will get dogs abuse because of it:

The current problems at Manchester Utd. FC can be pretty much laid at the door of one man: Sir Alex Ferguson.

There are some (older) people on here who can't read any criticism of the man - but I sense younger fans are beginning to realise the truth: that if you build up an empire, but structure it in such a way that when you leave, it all falls apart - especially if you keep meddling in that empire - then there comes a point when questions should be asked. We are at that point now.

Who brought the Glazers to Utd? (due to a dispute over a blinking racehorse) 20 years ago.

Who made a phonecall in August, to Ronaldo, to get him to reject Man City and rejoin Utd. even though it has totally messed up Ole's project?

These two events bookend numerous other 'mistakes' from the great man: anointing Moyes as his successor, running down the clubs playing staff in the last 7-8 years of his reign and worst of all undermining the current manager week in, week out. Has the club learnt nothing from history? because this has happened before. Who sits in the stand waiting for the cameras to find him, shaking his head at 0-4 down, 'look at me, look at me - this wouldn't have happened in my day'? Well back in his day Utd. really only had one or two rivals, Arsenal & Chelsea and all the money to buy anyone they wanted and if he tried to manage a Club in 2021 the way he did back then, he'd soon be done for work-place bullying. People keep saying Ole is too nice to be successful, but in this day and age it doesn't work like that - the players have too much power for a start, but the poor guy has been undermined - he was actually making really good progress evolving the squad and then this Ronaldo thing has cocked that up and he will likely lose his job because of it.

Man Utd. should have thanked Sir Alex for his amazing success, but when he resigned, that should have been it. Think about other walks of life, once the head of any big business (and Utd. are a business) leaves, then the new people take control. To continue to go back to the previous leader, causes all sorts of issues and these are plain to see, when you look at Man Utd, today.

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[devilish]

This is very unpopular opinion, but I'm going to type it anyway even though I will get dogs abuse because of it:

The current problems at Manchester Utd. FC can be pretty much laid at the door of one man: Sir Alex Ferguson.

There are some (older) people on here who can't read any criticism of the man - but I sense younger fans are beginning to realise the truth: that if you build up an empire, but structure it in such a way that when you leave, it all falls apart - especially if you keep meddling in that empire - then there comes a point when questions should be asked. We are at that point now.

Who brought the Glazers to Utd? (due to a dispute over a blinking racehorse) 20 years ago.

Who made a phonecall in August, to Ronaldo, to get him to reject Man City and rejoin Utd. even though it has totally messed up Ole's project?

These two events bookend numerous other 'mistakes' from the great man: anointing Moyes as his successor, running down the clubs playing staff in the last 7-8 years of his reign and worst of all undermining the current manager week in, week out. Has the club learnt nothing from history? because this has happened before. Who sits in the stand waiting for the cameras to find him, shaking his head at 0-4 down, 'look at me, look at me - this wouldn't have happened in my day'? Well back in his day Utd. really only had one or two rivals, Arsenal & Chelsea and all the money to buy anyone they wanted and if he tried to manage a Club in 2021 the way he did back then, he'd soon be done for work-place bullying. People keep saying Ole is too nice to be successful, but in this day and age it doesn't work like that - the players have too much power for a start, but the poor guy has been undermined - he was actually making really good progress evolving the squad and then this Ronaldo thing has cocked that up and he will likely lose his job because of it.

Man Utd. should have thanked Sir Alex for his amazing success, but when he resigned, that should have been it. Think about other walks of life, once the head of any big business (and Utd. are a business) leaves, then the new people take control. To continue to go back to the previous leader, causes all sorts of issues and these are plain to see, when you look at Man Utd, today.

I never hesitated in criticizing SAF when it was due even when the man was his prime. I would certainly not shy in doing it now. In my opinion, once a manager retires then he should leave the club. The reason being that football change, generations change, tactics change and coaching change. Unless one is doing the job week in week out then he simply can't catch up of what's going on.

However I followed and met SAF enough to be 100% sure that he would NEVER put a good word for us with Ronaldo unless Ole told him to do so. SAF spent decades saying that the manager is the most important person his football and he dismantled top sides at their prime out of fear of losing the dressing room. When Moyes dismantled his coaching staff, the same people that had bled with him through god know how many successes SAF resisted the urge to undermine him. There's no chance that the old man would pull such fast one at Ole and if he did then Ole should have resigned immediately.

In my opinion, Ole was already struggling before Ronaldo came. Our tactics weren't working and we've been grinding results for months. Ole tried to counter that in the way he always did ie bringing in top players whose individual brilliance could bail him out. In doing so he unsettled the balance of the team making things even worse.

 

[telstar96]

In the 1970s, Bob Paisley had to ban Bill Shankly from coming to the training ground after he took over the Liverpool job, as Shankly would often interfere with training sessions, players would still call him boss and it would overall undermine Paisley’s authority over the players. Part of forging your own success is not feeling burdened by past achievements.

I feel like for United the issues aren’t just with SAF, the former players have a part to play as well. For example, Gary Neville suggesting that United can’t work with a ‘hitman’, as he described Jose and LvG, is primarily influenced by the fact his manager was there throughout his whole playing career. The arguments he makes have no relevance in the modern game, and I feel this is a recurring theme for a lot of ex players.

 

[Noc-Z]

Yeah the big myth I would bust is that we have this great squad - we don't. It should obviously be performing better than losing 5-0 to Liverpool and Ole has to go so someone can come in and get us at least functioning again, bit it's not as good as most would have you believe. Of course, it's hard to tell how many of these players would be good enough given a clear role, proper instructions in a functioning tactical unit! I thought Shaw was starting to look a player again, but defensively his positional sense has been atrocious. Maguire doesn't look confident enough he's full of silly mistakes and is no captain. AWB as we know offers nothing going forward all his crosses hit the first man. The midfield is the engine of a team and we have none. Our midfield is mid-table or worse. And I'm mainly talking Fred and McT. Pogba can't even claim a spot in that team, that's how bad he is. He is slow, clumsy, lethargic and cumbersome. Bruno is playing like a school kid, running around wherever he fancies with no discipline, and people say you have to take risks in that position, and you do, but maybe a little more calculated risk - a lot of what he does gives the ball back to the opponent. He's the main one I think can perform so much better with clear instruction and some coaching and discipline. Other than maybe Sancho, we have no creative wingers. We have wide forwards. Or even prospective strikers shoehorned into a wing position. Cavani and Ronaldo are towards the end of their careers, Greenwood should be developed as a striker, not constantly played on the RW. And we all know the the problems with Ronaldo, he is an out-and-out goal scorer now. And that can be OK but we need to set-up to get the most out of him and we don't seem to have either the squad or system in place to do that. Yeah, this squad needs a lot of work. The prospects have had all this time wasted under Ole. They haven't developed because no one experienced or competent enough is around to develop them. The main area to be addressed ASAP is midfield as a matter of urgency, but it feels like that's been the case for years, even dating back to bringing Scholes out of retirement, where has our midfield been? When did we last have a worthy midfield?!

 

[Jezpeza]

Yeah the big myth I would bust is that we have this great squad - we don't. It should obviously be performing better than losing 5-0 to Liverpool and Ole has to go so someone can come in and get us at least functioning again, bit it's not as good as most would have you believe. Of course, it's hard to tell how many of these players would be good enough given a clear role, proper instructions in a functioning tactical unit! I thought Shaw was starting to look a player again, but defensively his positional sense has been atrocious. Maguire doesn't look confident enough he's full of silly mistakes and is no captain. AWB as we know offers nothing going forward all his crosses hit the first man. The midfield is the engine of a team and we have none. Our midfield is mid-table or worse. And I'm mainly talking Fred and McT. Pogba can't even claim a spot in that team, that's how bad he is. He is slow, clumsy, lethargic and cumbersome. Bruno is playing like a school kid, running around wherever he fancies with no discipline, and people say you have to take risks in that position, and you do, but maybe a little more calculated risk - a lot of what he does gives the ball back to the opponent. He's the main one I think can perform so much better with clear instruction and some coaching and discipline. Other than maybe Sancho, we have no creative wingers. We have wide forwards. Or even prospective strikers shoehorned into a wing position. Cavani and Ronaldo are towards the end of their careers, Greenwood should be developed as a striker, not constantly played on the RW. And we all know the the problems with Ronaldo, he is an out-and-out goal scorer now. And that can be OK but we need to set-up to get the most out of him and we don't seem to have either the squad or system in place to do that. Yeah, this squad needs a lot of work. The prospects have had all this time wasted under Ole. They haven't developed because no one experienced or competent enough is around to develop them. The main area to be addressed ASAP is midfield as a matter of urgency, but it feels like that's been the case for years, even dating back to bringing Scholes out of retirement, where has our midfield been? When did we last have a worthy midfield?!

I agree with the midfield part. You win and lose a game in midfield. I like what Bruno does but hes not a die cast traditional midfielder. I feel like its him or Pogba in the 11, they dont work together. Behind him its fred, mctominay, matic. The engine room isnt good enough. Should be good enough to beat southampton and young boys etc mind but not good enough for sustained success.

I dont think that the rest of the squad is that bad. Maguire gets roasted on his like of pace - did you see that affect Chiellini and Bonucci? They were awesome. It depends how your team plays.

I think people have started to use TAA’s crazy season at liverpool as a yardstick for a fullbacks attacking contributions. AWB had 2 goals and 6 assists last season which is okay. I dont think he is great at attacking but hes not as bad as we make out. Besides which, if we were coached to play to our strengths then Shaw could be the fullback going forward and AWB could drop back into a back 3 (hes rapid and a great one on one tackler) whilst our right cm moved to support the right winger. I thought buying sancho would mean we had a right footed player hugging the right side to keep the width there but he doesnt get off the bench.

Our problem is that we just dont play to the strengths of the players we have and i dont think we know what system we want to play to fit those players into. Its fine to have wide forwards. I can see us Playing greenwood and rashford as inverted wide forwards. We have seen the opposition push up to stop Ronaldo getting near the box this season, then Ronaldo can play false 9 and play them into the space behind. Or if they sit deep we can play to him in the box. But theres been no organised thought on it. We Just get pogba, ronaldo, fernandes and greenwood on the pitch somehow and see what happens. Our defending, workrate and shape off the ball is awful. Our 4231 should become a 451 as soon as we lose the ball. But none of our front 4 want to track back.

 

[JebelSherif]

However I followed and met SAF enough to be 100% sure that he would NEVER put a good word for us with Ronaldo unless Ole told him to do so. SAF spent decades saying that the manager is the most important person his football and he dismantled top sides at their prime out of fear of losing the dressing room. When Moyes dismantled his coaching staff, the same people that had bled with him through god know how many successes SAF resisted the urge to undermine him. There's no chance that the old man would pull such fast one at Ole and if he did then Ole should have resigned immediately.

Your post is a good one and probably right, it is something I guess we will never really know. A proper chicken and egg conundrum. Did Ole ask SAF to make the call? or was the call made and then Ole told about it? If it was the later, it would have been very difficult for OGS to say '...er, boss, I'd rather wish you hadn't done that' because of the past they share and Sir Alex's god-like status at the club.

I will say this though, if that did happen, Ole Gunnar Solskjær would not have just resigned in protest. Managers never 'resign' these days, name me one that has.... anywhere.

The reason being, if you resign you get a card with thanks and good luck, if you wait to be terminated (by mutual consent or otherwise) you get £8 million (and the card with thanks and good luck). Its a no-brainer.

 

[Noc-Z]

I agree with the midfield part. You win and lose a game in midfield. I like what Bruno does but hes not a die cast traditional midfielder. I feel like its him or Pogba in the 11, they dont work together. Behind him its fred, mctominay, matic. The engine room isnt good enough. Should be good enough to beat southampton and young boys etc mind but not good enough for sustained success.

I dont think that the rest of the squad is that bad. Maguire gets roasted on his like of pace - did you see that affect Chiellini and Bonucci? They were awesome. It depends how your team plays.

I think people have started to use TAA’s crazy season at liverpool as a yardstick for a fullbacks attacking contributions. AWB had 2 goals and 6 assists last season which is okay. I dont think he is great at attacking but hes not as bad as we make out. Besides which, if we were coached to play to our strengths then Shaw could be the fullback going forward and AWB could drop back into a back 3 (hes rapid and a great one on one tackler) whilst our right cm moved to support the right winger. I thought buying sancho would mean we had a right footed player hugging the right side to keep the width there but he doesnt get off the bench.

Our problem is that we just dont play to the strengths of the players we have and i dont think we know what system we want to play to fit those players into. Its fine to have wide forwards. I can see us Playing greenwood and rashford as inverted wide forwards. We have seen the opposition push up to stop Ronaldo getting near the box this season, then Ronaldo can play false 9 and play them into the space behind. Or if they sit deep we can play to him in the box. But theres been no organised thought on it. We Just get pogba, ronaldo, fernandes and greenwood on the pitch somehow and see what happens. Our defending, workrate and shape off the ball is awful. Our 4231 should become a 451 as soon as we lose the ball. But none of our front 4 want to track back.

I agree with some of this too, this is the type of thing I mean when I said we need a new manager and coaching team to see if some of these players are good enough. On AWB though, I'm not measuring him against TAA, I'm watching him and I see his crosses hit the first man. You're right Shaw should attack, AWB should drop in ideally. Exactly right about no organised thought.

 

[devilish]

Your post is a good one and probably right, it is something I guess we will never really know. A proper chicken and egg conundrum. Did Ole ask SAF to make the call? or was the call made and then Ole told about it? If it was the later, it would have been very difficult for OGS to say '...er, boss, I'd rather wish you hadn't done that' because of the past they share and Sir Alex's god-like status at the club.

I will say this though, if that did happen, Ole Gunnar Solskjær would not have just resigned in protest. Managers never 'resign' these days, name me one that has.... anywhere.

The reason being, if you resign you get a card with thanks and good luck, if you wait to be terminated (by mutual consent or otherwise) you get £8 million (and the card with thanks and good luck). Its a no-brainer.

Ronaldo fits Ole's profile perfectly. He's an experienced striker that knows the United way inside out and who is known for his individual brilliance. That's basically what Ole asks in a forward. SAF was obsessed with retaining his independence as manager. He fought for it tooth and nail both against his players and against owners. In fact people I know who have great contacts with the club claim that all this circus started when SAF left simply because SAF wouldn't have allowed these crap to happen under his tenure. I very much doubt that he would undermine any manager let alone one of his favorite sons Ole. There's too much at stake for that to happen and I am referring to Ole's, Carrick's, Phelan's Clegg's and possibly Fletcher's jobs who might be at stake if all of this goes feet up.

Don't take me wrong SAF has committed mistakes in the past. If its true that he popped in the training ground to talk to players in favor of Ole then that's a clear example of that. By doing so he had undermined Ole big time as that would mean that the manager needed SIR to step in and rally the troops on his behalf. Finally people do leave clubs without a pay out. Gattuso agreed to give up an 11m euros pay out. He then went to Napoli and deferred part of his salary so that employees could be paid full salary. There again true legends like Gattuso whose pride, integrity and respect towards the club come ahead financial gain are rare to come by.

 

[JebelSherif]

Don't take me wrong SAF has committed mistakes in the past. If its true that he popped in the training ground to talk to players in favor of Ole then that's a clear example of that.

Well Paul White writing in the Telegraph seemed to provide extra information about the Carrington visit: "...he went nowhere near the players. Rather he had turned up to his old haunt for an official function. He was there with Martin Edwards, his erstwhile chairman, for a prior engagement." But this is what puzzles me about Man Utd. they must have realised how it would look, so why not re-schedule or change the venue to stop the inevitable tittle-tattle that ensued?

It's like at each big home match, nobody doubts Sir Alex Fergusons love of the club or his desire to watch the team, but just get some privacy glass installed in the director's box - it would be a few hundred quid. Much better that than Sky finding him looking glum or shaking his head at 0-4 down as they did on Sunday, which just puts more pressure on the embattled manager and makes the club look stupid, around the world.

 

[devilish]

Well Paul White writing in the Telegraph seemed to provide extra information about the Carrington visit: "...he went nowhere near the players. Rather he had turned up to his old haunt for an official function. He was there with Martin Edwards, his erstwhile chairman, for a prior engagement." But this is what puzzles me about Man Utd. they must have realised how it would look, so why not re-schedule or change the venue to stop the inevitable tittle-tattle that ensued?

It's like at each big home match, nobody doubts Sir Alex Fergusons love of the club or his desire to watch the team, but just get some privacy glass installed in the director's box - it would be a few hundred quid. Much better that than Sky finding him looking glum or shaking his head at 0-4 down as they did on Sunday, which just puts more pressure on the embattled manager and makes the club look stupid, around the world.

I agree.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The board only sack managers when 4th is impossible.

Utter codswallop this one, it happened with one manager this, Moyes, and that no doubt due to the ridiculous 6 year contract and bravado about “Standing by your manager” and how United always give managers time.

LVG was never getting sacked whilst on his way to an FA Cup final win, and even in his most boring and darkest times he never slipped to what Mourinho and Ole did in their third seasons, he started the season until late November the exact opposite of Mourinho and Ole in season 3, we were flying high until the Luke Shaw injury, and looked good into December. Add to that LVG, Arsenal aside, always had good results against our biggest rivals. He finished joint on points with City that season, in 5th, and the Mourinho deal was already wrapped up so no chance was a single point more in the league keeping him in a job. He’d have been let go even with 4th.

Mourinho was sacked mid-season.

Can we put this fecker to bed now?

It happened with one manager, Moyes.

Mourinho was lined up long before 4th was decided in LVG’s final season, and the following two managers have now been sacked mid-season, one in November.

Nighty nighty daft myth.