Lewis Hamilton

[UnofficialDevil]

Surprised there's no thread on him, he's now equalled Michael Schumacher's record of seven world championships, if he wins title number eight next year that will be a world record that will be very difficult to beat.

What do you think?
Lewis Hamilton vs Michael Schumacher who is the greatest?

 

[Nani Nana]

Coverage about him in UK media is generally subdued, if not plain underwhelming.

Not sure why...

 

[sewey89]

There's no thread on him, but he's discussed and admired widely in the F1 thread:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/f1-2020-season.452125/page-89#post-26370131

I think for some reason that in this country we tend to have a tendency to bash successful British sportsmen and try to undermine their achievements. Couple that with athletes tending to not get the recognition that they fully deserve until they retire and I think a lot of people will say Schumacher.

I've only really watched F1 when Lewis has been in it and only saw the backend of Michael's career, so i'd always say Lewis in the debate. Both incredible though as the stats show.

 

[Jippy]

There's no thread on him, but he's discussed and admired widely in the F1 thread:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/f1-2020-season.452125/page-89#post-26370131

I think for some reason that in this country we tend to have a tendency to bash successful British sportsmen and try to undermine their achievements. Couple that with athletes tending to not get the recognition that they fully deserve until they retire and I think a lot of people will say Schumacher.

I've only really watched F1 when Lewis has been in it and only saw the backend of Michael's career, so i'd always say Lewis in the debate. Both incredible though as the stats show.

I dunno if it's the same everywhere, but you see that a lot in the UK, eg Lennox Lewis springs to mind. Schumacher too- he got horrific press in the UK, being vilified as a cheat and only really got true recognition later from memory.
Lewis's achievement has been remarkable, but cynics will argue he had the best car for the past 5-6 years. Also he certainly hasn't helped himself at times, with some of his tweeting and 'out of the slums' comments. Conversely, I do think a lot of people have finally recognised just how good he is. His ability under pressure, his sheer relentlessness and ability to lead the team are goat level.

 

[stepic]

Rio said he was Britain's greatest ever sportsman. he is amazing at what he does, but for me i'd never put a F1 driver (given the incredible importance of having a good car) over the achivement of someone like Steve Redgrave or Chris Hoy.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

Lewis was the reason I started watching F1 again , stopped watching after watching the Senna crash.
I think Lewis is the best driver I have seen, his race yesterday to win and his 7th WC was maybe his best.

 

[Rado_N]

Great driver, great achievement albeit with a significant car advantage, bellend of a person.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

Great driver, great achievement albeit with a significant car advantage, bellend of a person.

Cant argue with that.

 

[sewey89]

I dunno if it's the same everywhere, but you see that a lot in the UK, eg Lennox Lewis springs to mind. Schumacher too- he got horrific press in the UK, being vilified as a cheat and only really got true recognition later from memory.
Lewis's achievement has been remarkable, but cynics will argue he had the best car for the past 5-6 years. Also he certainly hasn't helped himself at times, with some of his tweeting and 'out of the slums' comments. Conversely, I do think a lot of people have finally recognised just how good he is. His ability under pressure, his sheer relentlessness and ability to lead the team are goat level.

Agree with everything.

The best car thing is such a lazy argument, it's like using playing for Barcelona to undermine Messi's achievements. The best drivers drive the best cars in the same way the best players play for the best teams.

 

[SalfordRed18]

Coverage about him in UK media is generally subdued, if not plain underwhelming.

Not sure why...

Rio said he was Britain's greatest ever sportsman. he is amazing at what he does, but for me i'd never put a F1 driver (given the incredible importance of having a good car) over the achivement of someone like Steve Redgrave or Chris Hoy.

Reckon Chris potentially might though.

 

[Xeno]

Rosberg beating him in the same car will always count against him for me.

 

[stepic]

The best car thing is such a lazy argument, it's like using playing for Barcelona to undermine Messi's achievements. The best drivers drive the best cars in the same way the best players play for the best teams.

Messi isn't made to look good because he plays for Barcelona, he would be the best no matter who he played for. and he still kicks the same football and wears the same shoes as anyone else, it's not like he has super charged footwear that gives him a competitor advantage.

 

[Patchbeard]

Agree with everything.

The best car thing is such a lazy argument, it's like using playing for Barcelona to undermine Messi's achievements. The best drivers drive the best cars in the same way the best players play for the best teams.

I don't think the best car thing is an obsolete argument, and wouldn't really compare the situation to a sport which relies on 11 players working in tandem.

I just think in f1 if you have the best car and you are the no.1 driver in that team, then the odds are so heavily stacked in your favour as an individual that you can't ignore the advantage that some drivers have had at various points in the sports history. It's kind of what turned me off the sport when Schumacher dominated so much in the early 00s, and it was partly because Barrichello was his bitch and Williams and McClaren were struggling.

 

[Kazi]

Rio said he was Britain's greatest ever sportsman. he is amazing at what he does, but for me i'd never put a F1 driver (given the incredible importance of having a good car) over the achivement of someone like Steve Redgrave or Chris Hoy.

Why not? At least Lewis is clean (not incl recreational stuff hehe)

 

[Skills]

Rosberg beating him in the same car will always count against him for me.

Will Alonso getting beat by a rookie Hamilton always count against him too?

 

[freeurmind]

Definitely the GOAT imo.

 

[altodevil]

Rosberg beating him in the same car will always count against him for me.

Rosberg was fortunate that season.

Hamilton is one of the best but it is impossible to know who is the fastest driver really.

 

[Dan_F]

Rosberg beating him in the same car will always count against him for me.

I remember him having horrendous luck that year with reliability. More wins, more poles, more podiums. The title was decided by 5 points in the end.

In fact, how would it have worked out if there was a point for fastest lap I wonder? That’s the kind of thing that makes it so hard to compare eras.

 

[Oggmonster]

Coverage about him in UK media is generally subdued, if not plain underwhelming.

Not sure why...

Is it? I've got no interest in F1 but hear about him quite a lot. He's constantly on Sky Sports News, when there's F1 race weekends the results and his interviews are on ITV/BBC/C4 whatever and he is a very very well known face.

Maybe the coverage isn't huge cos F1 isn't as popular as it used to be, I mean from the outside in the same guy and same car basically win every week so it's hardly the most exciting thing to talk about.

The media will talk about sports and sports people that get more interest, F1 has had declining viewers for years apparently and continues to do so.

Obviously understand what you're implying and not pretending that's not an issue in the UK press but I just think with Hamilton no one is that arsed about the sport.

For reference the top story is currently this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/extra/c1nx5lutpg/The-real-Lewis-Hamilton-story a huge article, I don't think it's that underwhelming.

 

[11101]

I think it's very close.

Both won in different cars.
Both built cars and teams up from also rans.
Both had dominant cars, though the FIA have been slower to change the rules for Mercedes than they were for Ferrari.

For that last reason i'd say Schumacher still edges it, his 5 with Ferrari are worth as much as Hamilton's 6 with Mercedes, but both are miles out in front of anybody else bar Senna and Clark.

 

[GuyfromAustria]

I remember him having horrendous luck that year with reliability. More wins, more poles, more podiums. The title was decided by 5 points in the end.

In fact, how would it have worked out if there was a point for fastest lap I wonder? That’s the kind of thing that makes it so hard to compare eras.

Fastest laps 2016: Rosberg 6x, Hamilton 3x
But of course there wasn't an incentive.

 

[bsCallout]

The cars are too important to make his achievements as outstanding as the individual accolades involved in other sports. Which is why I don't agree with Rio.

That said, he deserves to be spoken about as one of the greats in UK sport.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Coverage about him in UK media is generally subdued, if not plain underwhelming.

Not sure why...

Because he’s an absolute wounder. I have said this elsewhere.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

Rosberg beating him in the same car will always count against him for me.

Why ? 2016 was decided by DNFs , His second DNF cost him the WC , Lewis won 4 of the last 5 races and lost by 5 points.
Nico had 9 wins Lewis 10.It was a good season, both had a 7th and 5th Finish.

Pos.	Driver	AUS	BHR	CHN	RUS	ESP	MON	CAN	EUR	AUT	GBR	HUN	GER	BEL	ITA	SIN	MAL	JPN	USA	MEX	BRA	ABU	Points
1	Nico Rosberg	1	1	1	1	Ret	7	5	1	4	3	2	4	1	1	1	3	1	2	2	2	2	385
2	Lewis Hamilton	2	3	7	2	Ret	1	1	5	1	1	1	1	3	2	3	Ret	3	1	1	1	1	380

 

[Ish]

Yeah even from outside (of the UK), there's not been as much praise and adulation of his achievements compare to someone like Schumacher, when he was driving and as dominant.

I'm not a Lewis fan (nor an F1 fan - stopped watching at the turn of the last decade - think 2012/2013) but his achievements should definitely be GOATable.

Hasn't his rise and dominance coincided with the sport losing a lot of viewers/fans over the years? Maybe that could partly be a contributing factor? Unless I'm imagining things

 

[Buster15]

Lewis was the reason I started watching F1 again , stopped watching after watching the Senna crash.
I think Lewis is the best driver I have seen, his race yesterday to win and his 7th WC was maybe his best.

I have listened to Toto Wolf talking about Lewis.
He says that Lewis is so incredibly naturally talented, as well as extremely dedicated that he has a huge amount of available brain capacity.
Brain capacity which he is able to use such that he can visualise where his rivals are on the track and what their tyres are like and what he needs to do to beat them.
He is constantly asking probing questions of his pit crew.

But if anyone had any doubts about just how brilliant he is, then the way he managed his car and his tyres in Turkey confirms his position of the best.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I like him. He'll be the greatest F1 driver of all time when he's done. When he has 10 championships it will be a lot harder to argue against that. His part time social justice warrior and full time tax dodger shtick is pretty amusing too.

 

[Oggmonster]

Yeah even from outside (of the UK), there's not been as much praise and adulation of his achievements compare to someone like Schumacher, when he was driving and as dominant.

I'm not a Lewis fan (nor an F1 fan - stopped watching at the turn of the last decade - think 2012/2013) but his achievements should definitely be GOATable.

Hasn't his rise and dominance coincided with the sport losing a lot of viewers/fans over the years? Maybe that could partly be a contributing factor? Unless I'm imagining things

From the outside in it's just not that interesting of a sport. I used to watch it with my Dad when I was younger cos he was dead in to it and even then it seemed more entertaining despite 1 racer dominating. Whenever I see it now on Sky Sports News Hamilton is winning races by ridiculous amounts of time it seems and it's natural people aren't going to be interested. I think over the course of 10/20 years the viewers have plummeted, in the UK it was on terrestrial TV and now it's mainly on Sky which doesn't help it's cause.

I don't think Hamilton is the right example of people implying it's some racism issue though by saying he doesn't get much coverage. I reckon in terms of sports stars in the UK he is amongst the most covered and it's normally pretty positive stuff. There just isn't that much to talk about with F1 cos it's hugely predictable most the time.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

I like him. He'll be the greatest F1 driver of all time when he's done. When he has 10 championships it will be a lot harder to argue against that. His part time social justice warrior and full time tax dodger shtick is pretty amusing too.

He’s a cretin. Hugely talented. But he’s more Lance Armstrong than LeMond. Pursuit of a win above all else.

I’ve met him a few times. In regular settings. He’s not a good person.

I respect his supreme talent and the application of it. But he’s an absolute whopper.

In F1, most successful rarely equals ‘Best’. Kimi, Lauda & Senna would make me watch F1.

Begrudgingly I can admit that had Hamilton ‘enjoyed’ the smaller gap in car quality that Schumacher did, he may have warmed my cockles a little more... but he didn’t. He lost when his car wasn’t as good, got beat by a team mate and smashed the Fcuk out of everyone when he had the best car.

He will never win 10 titles though. I doubt he’ll win 9. Quote me.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

I don't think Hamilton is the right example of people implying it's some racism issue though by saying he doesn't get much coverage. I reckon in terms of sports stars in the UK he is amongst the most covered and it's normally pretty positive stuff. There just isn't that much to talk about with F1 cos it's hugely predictable most the time.

It’s not racism. He’s in the best car because he’s exceptionally talented and he doesn’t cause sponsors any problems.

It’s that lack of personality that sees him marginalised. He’s just a boring dude. We all liked Schumacher. He was pretty boring too. Good for a quip here and there but he just wanted to drive cars fast and win world titles.

The current era of F1 is as boring as it’s ever been. The best car wins almost all races. Something like 90% of Podiums in the last 6 years have had one of Lewis’ teams cars on it. That’s so boring.

Hell of a driver. Boring races and boring life though.

 

[Ish]

From the outside in it's just not that interesting of a sport. I used to watch it with my Dad when I was younger cos he was dead in to it and even then it seemed more entertaining despite 1 racer dominating. Whenever I see it now on Sky Sports News Hamilton is winning races by ridiculous amounts of time it seems and it's natural people aren't going to be interested. I think over the course of 10/20 years the viewers have plummeted, in the UK it was on terrestrial TV and now it's mainly on Sky which doesn't help it's cause.

I don't think Hamilton is the right example of people implying it's some racism issue though by saying he doesn't get much coverage. I reckon in terms of sports stars in the UK he is amongst the most covered and it's normally pretty positive stuff. There just isn't that much to talk about with F1 cos it's hugely predictable most the time.

Aye, yeah I don’t have a strong opinion about it all, as like I said, I lost interest in the sport a good 8-10 years ago! And I certainly wasn’t implying racism - I do think there’s a link between the diminishing interest in the sport and the perceived lack of adulation and coverage though. I just couldn’t confirm it as like I said, it was more an educated guess than any hard evidence I’ve seen/collected.

 

[Oggmonster]

It’s not racism. He’s in the best car because he’s exceptionally talented and he doesn’t cause sponsors any problems.

It’s that lack of personality that sees him marginalised. He’s just a boring dude. We all liked Schumacher. He was pretty boring too. Good for a quip here and there but he just wanted to drive cars fast and win world titles.

The current era of F1 is as boring as it’s ever been. The best car wins almost all races. Something like 90% of Podiums in the last 6 years have had one of Lewis’ teams cars on it. That’s so boring.

Hell of a driver. Boring races and boring life though.

Yeah I agree with this really. I just think the sport lost it's appeal massively, like I said I watched it with my Dad and he was a huge fan, I went round a while ago and he just has it as background noise now normally doing something else. I think the problem being that most the time he wins in such dominating fashion there never seems to be any drama from what I see. I'm sure there is for hardcore fans, failures in gearboxes or whatever but a casual fan or a person they want to get interested in the sport needs more than that.

A couple of my mates are mad in to it still and whenever they used to speak about it in the pub the stuff that interests them now seems to be the mechanics more than the race cos the race bit is really dull.

Aye, yeah I don’t have a strong opinion about it all, as like I said, I lost interest in the sport a good 8-10 years ago! And I certainly wasn’t implying racism - I do think there’s a link between the diminishing interest in the sport and the perceived lack of adulation and coverage though. I just couldn’t confirm it as like I said, it was more an educated guess than any hard evidence I’ve seen/collected.

Yep sorry didn't mean you at all, the 1st reply with the "wonder why it is.." kind of implies it (I may be wrong) but I just think as has been alluded to it's jut a really dull sport for people who have any slight interest in other sports and may be watching stuff like Sky Sports News. I see the highlights from golf, american football, baseketball etc (i.e. sports I'm not in to) and they do look somewhat interesting but F1 it just seems the same thing every week.

That's where Hamilton suffers with the talk of being the best sportsman or best driver for me. The lack of interest in the sport. He's clearly very good at something it's just something not many people care about anymore.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

He’s a cretin. Hugely talented. But he’s more Lance Armstrong than LeMond. Pursuit of a win above all else.

I’ve met him a few times. In regular settings. He’s not a good person.

I respect his supreme talent and the application of it. But he’s an absolute whopper.

In F1, most successful rarely equals ‘Best’. Kimi, Lauda & Senna would make me watch F1.

Begrudgingly I can admit that had Hamilton ‘enjoyed’ the smaller gap in car quality that Schumacher did, he may have warmed my cockles a little more... but he didn’t. He lost when his car wasn’t as good, got beat by a team mate and smashed the Fcuk out of everyone when he had the best car.

He will never win 10 titles though. I doubt he’ll win 9. Quote me.

Did he finger blast your girl at a party or something?

 

[Siorac]

Will Alonso getting beat by a rookie Hamilton always count against him too?

Hell yeah it should. Alonso has no place in any "greatest ever" discussions. He was very good but not on that level.

I'd probably rate Schumacher - whom I disliked, for what it's worth - somewhat higher than Hamilton but part of it is definitely down to simply having seen a lot more of him: I followed F1 a lot more closely in the late 90s-early 00s. Until, well, until Schumacher's neverending dominance turned me off of it. Could Hamilton have done what Schumacher did with Benetton in 1994 and 1995? We'll probably never get to find out.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Did he finger blast your girl at a party or something?

No. Calling it how it is. Supremely talented driver. One of the best ever. Boring as watching Lee Bowyer watching paint dry.

 

[Ish]

Yeah I agree with this really. I just think the sport lost it's appeal massively, like I said I watched it with my Dad and he was a huge fan, I went round a while ago and he just has it as background noise now normally doing something else. I think the problem being that most the time he wins in such dominating fashion there never seems to be any drama from what I see. I'm sure there is for hardcore fans, failures in gearboxes or whatever but a casual fan or a person they want to get interested in the sport needs more than that.

A couple of my mates are mad in to it still and whenever they used to speak about it in the pub the stuff that interests them now seems to be the mechanics more than the race cos the race bit is really dull.



Yep sorry didn't mean you at all, the 1st reply with the "wonder why it is.." kind of implies it (I may be wrong) but I just think as has been alluded to it's jut a really dull sport for people who have any slight interest in other sports and may be watching stuff like Sky Sports News. I see the highlights from golf, american football, baseketball etc (i.e. sports I'm not in to) and they do look somewhat interesting but F1 it just seems the same thing every week.

That's where Hamilton suffers with the talk of being the best sportsman or best driver for me. The lack of interest in the sport. He's clearly very good at something it's just something not many people care about anymore.

Hahaha no need to apologise bud, I just wanted to clarify that that wasn’t what I was implying but agreed as well. I’ve lost just about all interest in the sport to an extent where I just keep an eye on results and qualifying results every now and again.

 

[RobinLFC]

No. Calling it how it is. Supremely talented driver. One of the best ever. Boring as watching Lee Bowyer watching paint dry.

Something doesn't add up then - if a person is that boring in real life (which he has every right to), why are people labeling him as an "absolute cretin", "bellend of a person" and so on? If you're a regular guy and have a boring life, you usually don't have that many people hating on your persona.

I don't follow either F1 (because it's boring as hell to watch) nor Hamilton all that closely but he's usually painted as a good person in Belgian press from what I gather, and I've always thought that he's using his platform well to raise awareness for social justice (Breonna Taylor and stuff), but I'll gladly be corrected if that's not how it actually is.

Just like other greats in the past, Schumacher has this "GOAT aura" surrounding him and Hamilton is still seen as the challenger to the GOAT title which is imo why more people will still be leaning Schumacher. It'll be a better exercise if Hamilton calls it a day and we've had a few years to reflect on his performances and his dominance.

 

[Xeno]

Will Alonso getting beat by a rookie Hamilton always count against him too?

I don't think many people put forward Alonso as the goat, so no. He's actually got a personality though.

Why ? 2016 was decided by DNFs , His second DNF cost him the WC , Lewis won 4 of the last 5 races and lost by 5 points.
Nico had 9 wins Lewis 10.It was a good season, both had a 7th and 5th Finish.

Pos.	Driver	AUS	BHR	CHN	RUS	ESP	MON	CAN	EUR	AUT	GBR	HUN	GER	BEL	ITA	SIN	MAL	JPN	USA	MEX	BRA	ABU	Points
1	Nico Rosberg	1	1	1	1	Ret	7	5	1	4	3	2	4	1	1	1	3	1	2	2	2	2	385
2	Lewis Hamilton	2	3	7	2	Ret	1	1	5	1	1	1	1	3	2	3	Ret	3	1	1	1	1	380

I don't believe Rosberg is a Tier 1 champion, and yet he was the equal or better or Hamilton that year even in the races without technical issues. He was also beaten by Button in 2011 in the same car.

He trades poles with his teammates 60/40, whereas Schumacher was something like 170 in 180.

This is all subjective anyway. I'd have him as 3/4th best.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Something doesn't add up then - if a person is that boring in real life (which he has every right to), why are people labeling him as an "absolute cretin", "bellend of a person" and so on? If you're a regular guy and have a boring life, you usually don't have that many people hating on your persona.

I don't follow either F1 (because it's boring as hell to watch) nor Hamilton all that closely but he's usually painted as a good person in Belgian press from what I gather, and I've always thought that he's using his platform well to raise awareness for social justice (Breonna Taylor and stuff), but I'll gladly be corrected if that's not how it actually is.

Just like other greats in the past, Schumacher has this "GOAT aura" surrounding him and Hamilton is still seen as the challenger to the GOAT title which is imo why more people will still be leaning Schumacher. It'll be a better exercise if Hamilton calls it a day and we've had a few years to reflect on his performances and his dominance.

I’m doing that thing where I met someone in a casual social setting and judging them based on that.

I met him when he was a kid, and as a successful driver. He SEEMED to be an absolute whopper. Devoid of an actual personality. That irks me and probably shouldn’t. He’s just really... uninspiring.

My truest interpretation would probably be that most of the drivers I like, understand that all they’re good at is driving a car really fast.

Lewis has cultivated this brand around himself that is so out of whack with who he is as a person. He acts weird. He is a weird dude. Phenomenal racer. Will never deny how talented he is.

 

[Hugh Jass]

I think he is the greatest now.

But he always struck me as a bit of a Prima Donna. When he won it was all down to him. But when he did badly, it was never him, it was the car, the team, the boss etc.