LGBT issues in Football

duffer

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I attend games with a gay freind. I admit I didn't attend this game, but they don't find it an overly offensive chant.

I've expereinced this first hand as a black fan, when some chants are considered offensive to black people (some Toure ones, the Lukaku one etc.) me and my freinds are left feeling a little weird as it's as if people are telling us we should have been offended at such chants - when in reality, we really didn't care.
But you do know that some people get hurt by racist chanting though, right?
 

Maagge

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That's where we're heading.

How long before the Park chant is officially classed as a racist hate crime and our fanbase is sanctioned by the FA accordingly? I reckon within 2 years.
Park himself felt quite strongly about that chant when he spoke to our official podcast. He doesn't like it.
 

Lynty

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But you do know that some people get hurt by racist chanting though, right?
There's monkey chants and then theres saying Lukaku has a big dong

One's is purposely designed to intimidate, offend and aggravate. The other is comedic use of a racial stereotype. Should we brand Jimmy Carr or Dave Chapelle as racist and homophobic for utlising racial/sexual stereotypes in their routines?

The line isn't clear and there has to be a degree of tolerance when things are used for comedic purposes - the back story of the rent boy chant is funny, that can't be denied. Is the chant genuinely being used to attack intimidate, offend and aggravate a target? I don't think so.

If it was targetted at an openly gay player/staff - that's different.
 

duffer

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There's monkey chants and then theres saying Lukaku has a big dong

One's is purposely designed to intimidate, offend and aggravate. The other is comedic use of a racial stereotype. Should we brand Jimmy Carr or Dave Chapelle as racist and homophobic for utlising racial/sexual stereotypes in their routines?

The line isn't clear and there has to be a degree of tolerance when things are used for comedic purposes - the back story of the rent boy chant is funny, that can't be denied. Is the chant genuinely being used to attack intimidate, offend and aggravate a target? I don't think so.

If it was targetted at an openly gay player/staff - that's different.
I've had "fecking rentboy cnut" screamed at me by angry, red faced blokes. Humour has absolutely nothing to do with it. Telling the difference between a joke and abuse isn't always difficult.

I agree the lines aren't always clear but when every gay supporters group (including your own) is saying "please don't do this", it's pretty clear.
 

calodo2003

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There's monkey chants and then theres saying Lukaku has a big dong

One's is purposely designed to intimidate, offend and aggravate. The other is comedic use of a racial stereotype. Should we brand Jimmy Carr or Dave Chapelle as racist and homophobic for utlising racial/sexual stereotypes in their routines?

The line isn't clear and there has to be a degree of tolerance when things are used for comedic purposes - the back story of the rent boy chant is funny, that can't be denied. Is the chant genuinely being used to attack intimidate, offend and aggravate a target? I don't think so.

If it was targetted at an openly gay player/staff - that's different.
In the context of a football match, both of the former are racist.

And the latter is homophobic.
 

BD

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This term has been levelled at Chelsea fans for as long as I can remember.

Seems that in January a ruling by the CPS defined it as a homophobic slur. Guess that settles it then - the goalposts have officially moved.

How is saying that something wasn't deemed offensive 40 years ago a good argument?
 
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Dan_F

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There's monkey chants and then theres saying Lukaku has a big dong

One's is purposely designed to intimidate, offend and aggravate. The other is comedic use of a racial stereotype. Should we brand Jimmy Carr or Dave Chapelle as racist and homophobic for utlising racial/sexual stereotypes in their routines?

The line isn't clear and there has to be a degree of tolerance when things are used for comedic purposes - the back story of the rent boy chant is funny, that can't be denied. Is the chant genuinely being used to attack intimidate, offend and aggravate a target? I don't think so.

If it was targetted at an openly gay player/staff - that's different.
Well this is awkward. Do you live under a rock?
 

sullydnl

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That's where we're heading.

How long before the Park chant is officially classed as a racist hate crime and our fanbase is sanctioned by the FA accordingly? I reckon within 2 years.
How long until the obviously racist chant Park has said contains a racial insult is deemed racist? Gee I wonder.

Fans shoildn't need the FA to intervene when Park himself has already said he doesn't want it sung.
 

Bwuk

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There's monkey chants and then theres saying Lukaku has a big dong

One's is purposely designed to intimidate, offend and aggravate. The other is comedic use of a racial stereotype. Should we brand Jimmy Carr or Dave Chapelle as racist and homophobic for utlising racial/sexual stereotypes in their routines?

The line isn't clear and there has to be a degree of tolerance when things are used for comedic purposes - the back story of the rent boy chant is funny, that can't be denied. Is the chant genuinely being used to attack intimidate, offend and aggravate a target? I don't think so.

If it was targetted at an openly gay player/staff - that's different.
I agree with this.
 

SilentWitness

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Do people here genuinely believe that fans chant 'rent boys' but don't associate it with the fact that they're laughing at Chelsea fans/players having gay sex? If the answer is no, then how is it not homophobic?
 

hasanejaz88

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There's monkey chants and then theres saying Lukaku has a big dong

One's is purposely designed to intimidate, offend and aggravate. The other is comedic use of a racial stereotype. Should we brand Jimmy Carr or Dave Chapelle as racist and homophobic for utlising racial/sexual stereotypes in their routines?

The line isn't clear and there has to be a degree of tolerance when things are used for comedic purposes - the back story of the rent boy chant is funny, that can't be denied. Is the chant genuinely being used to attack intimidate, offend and aggravate a target? I don't think so.

If it was targetted at an openly gay player/staff - that's different.
For the Lukaku big dong chant, I think he even said he doesn't like it so in that sense you have to respect his opinion and stop chanting it, though I don't think it's an offensive chant.

For rent boy, it is clearly meant as a way to lock Chelsea fans through saying they are gay prostitutes so I think it's offensive. If they used gigolo, that doesn't have any gay connotations to it, then that would be different. The fact that they are saying rent boy implies they think being gay is something to be made fun for, and therefore is wrong.
 

Cascarino

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How is saying that something wasn't deemed offensive 40 years ago a good argument?
There’s a lot you can do with that logic. “What do you mean I can’t eat all these shrooms and stare people down on public transport? It was fine in ‘62”

“We’ve moved the goalposts sir”
 

NotThatSoph

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There’s a lot you can do with that logic. “What do you mean I can’t eat all these shrooms and stare people down on public transport? It was fine in ‘62”

“We’ve moved the goalposts sir”
That should be fine, though. More '62 drugs, less '62 ranting about faggots and pakis.
 

Tarrou

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can't believe it's even a discussion about whether it's homophobic or not

newsflash: if you're calling someone gay as an insult, it's homophobic af
 

Seveneric

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There's monkey chants and then theres saying Lukaku has a big dong

One's is purposely designed to intimidate, offend and aggravate. The other is comedic use of a racial stereotype. Should we brand Jimmy Carr or Dave Chapelle as racist and homophobic for utlising racial/sexual stereotypes in their routines?

The line isn't clear and there has to be a degree of tolerance when things are used for comedic purposes - the back story of the rent boy chant is funny, that can't be denied. Is the chant genuinely being used to attack intimidate, offend and aggravate a target? I don't think so.

If it was targetted at an openly gay player/staff - that's different.
Since when has the definition of something being racist or homophobic been limited to "intention to cause harm or offend"? Maybe if we were in an actual court, but that has never been the case for human interaction.

Even using your standard, I'm not sure it holds up as the intention of the chant is to mock rival fans for being gay prostitutes. It's not just the prostitution, it's the homosexual part of it.
 

P-Ro

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Not sure I've ever been called a rentboy in a 'jokey' way. Every time I have been it's in the same vein as what you see in this knobhead's clip:

 

2 man midfield

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I attend games with a gay freind. I admit I didn't attend this game, but they don't find it an overly offensive chant.

I've expereinced this first hand as a black fan, when some chants are considered offensive to black people (some Toure ones, the Lukaku one etc.) me and my freinds are left feeling a little weird as it's as if people are telling us we should have been offended at such chants - when in reality, we really didn't care.
That’s great for you and him, and I definitely think white people being offended on behalf of minorities who don’t necessarily care is a thing, and can be quite condescending I’d have thought. But chances are there’s a lot of LGBT people who aren’t able to brush it off as easily and might even think twice about going - they’re hardly the most gay friendly places as it is.
 

Lay

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That’s great for you and him, and I definitely think white people being offended on behalf of minorities who don’t necessarily care is a thing, and can be quite condescending I’d have thought. But chances are there’s a lot of LGBT people who aren’t able to brush it off as easily and might even think twice about going - they’re hardly the most gay friendly places as it is.
I work with a white woman who is constantly upset for minorities like myself. Some of the stuff she comes out with is mind boggling and is extremely condescending. She means well but it’s goes to the extreme.
 

duffer

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I work with a white woman who is constantly upset for minorities like myself. Some of the stuff she comes out with is mind boggling and is extremely condescending. She means well but it’s goes to the extreme.
This isn't just a load of straight people complaining about homophobic chants though. It's not even just the gay Chelsea fans complaining, gay Man United fans are asking for it to stop...

 

calodo2003

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Finally. Great to hear. Just hope the undoubted backlash from multiple directions isn’t cretinous.
 

Oly Francis

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In tomorrow's Sun on Sunday.
The replies to the tweet... dozens of posters saying "we all know they're liverpool, everton, you name it" players as an insult. And then the usual morons replying "who cares, sexuality shouldn't be a public matter" to try to hide their homophobia.
Disgusting, but sadly expected.
 

do.ob

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The replies to the tweet... dozens of posters saying "we all know they're liverpool, everton, you name it" players as an insult. And then the usual morons replying "who cares, sexuality shouldn't be a public matter" to try to hide their homophobia.
Disgusting, but sadly expected.
Weird bug.. ..caf says you're supporting Qatar!?
 

Oly Francis

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Weird bug.. ..caf says you're supporting Qatar!?
Don't you have anything smarter to say? I've been supporting PSG for 30 years, I was here before QSI and I'll be here after. Supporting PSG isn't an endorsement of the owners, fans can't do anything about it. I limit as much as I can the money I give them and that's pretty much the extent of my power.
 

do.ob

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Taking a thread off topic
Don't you have anything smarter to say? I've been supporting PSG for 30 years, I was here before QSI and I'll be here after. Supporting PSG isn't an endorsement of the owners, fans can't do anything about it. I limit as much as I can the money I give them and that's pretty much the extent of my power.
So you're supporting Qatar in a limited capacity and under protest. That's admirable. Gold star for you.
 

Oly Francis

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So you're supporting Qatar in a limited capacity and under protest. That's admirable. Gold star for you.
Do you support gambling and alcool addictions? Because your club has sponsors in these industries, you know it's also terrible issues for society right?

Yeah, your argument is that dumb.
 

do.ob

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Do you support gambling and alcool addictions? Because your club has sponsors in these industries, you know it's also terrible issues for society right?

Yeah, your argument is that dumb.
You're correct, Qatar is basically one large brewery. Go Qatar! Go alcool!
 

Oly Francis

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You're correct, Qatar is basically one large brewery. Go Qatar! Go alcool!
Alcool kills over 74,000 people every year in Germany, I'd say it's a pretty big deal, do you go to protest every week-end to ask for these sponsors to be removed?

No? I thought so.

Anyway, I'm done with you.
 

Amar__

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Bump.


I reckon discusssion about all this(quoted post below) now is irrelevant because everyone refused to wear it now, and not just random muslim bloke that made the headlines? As I suspected the first time, when Modric and other players refused it, it's not a big story, but random muslim player refuses it and lt's the story of the week in the western media(and redcafe).

 

WeePat

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Sorry what is a rent boy? And why were people chanting that to Chelsea team?
Duffer explained it well a page or so back.

A male prostitute is a gigolo. A young, gay male prostitute is a rent boy.

The "Chelsea rentboys" chant comes from a newspaper headline back in the early 80s where a gay MP was paying for sex with a young man in Chelsea. The healine was something like "MP found with Chelsea Rentboy".

The CPS says it's homophobic, Kick It Out says it's homophobic, Stonewall says it's homophobic and the official LGBT Man United Supporters group says it's homophobic.

It's got nothing to do with money or selling our soul, I've been called it since I started regularly going to games in the early 90s.
 

Rhyme Animal

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Nonchalantly scoring the winner...
Bump.


I reckon discusssion about all this(quoted post below) now is irrelevant because everyone refused to wear it now, and not just random muslim bloke that made the headlines? As I suspected the first time, when Modric and other players refused it, it's not a big story, but random muslim player refuses it and lt's the story of the week in the western media(and redcafe).
I guess the difference is that other players want / wanted to wear it but are not doing so in fear of being prevented from playing, whereas matey here is doing so because he doesn’t believe in protesting homophobia.
 

do.ob

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Bump.


I reckon discusssion about all this(quoted post below) now is irrelevant because everyone refused to wear it now, and not just random muslim bloke that made the headlines? As I suspected the first time, when Modric and other players refused it, it's not a big story, but random muslim player refuses it and lt's the story of the week in the western media(and redcafe).
Sliiiiiiiiiiiight difference, between someone outright rejecting it for ideological reasons and others wanting to wear it, but caving in to FIFA's pressure?????????
 

Amar__

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Sliiiiiiiiiiiight difference, between someone outright rejecting it for ideological reasons and others wanting to wear it, but caving in to FIFA's pressure?????????
I don't think fear of starting a game with yellow card should be that strong if you want to prove a point tbf. Especially if you are a striker and playing a game against Iran.

Players/people from football are just being hypocrites as always, nothing new here. Same when we got racism on online media but hardly anyone from them wanted to delete their social profiles in protest because it earns them lot of money. But they were fine to write and complain because that cost them nothing.

I guess the difference is that other players want / wanted to wear it but are not doing so in fear of being prevented from playing, whereas matey here is doing so because he doesn’t believe in protesting homophobia.
It's just a yellow card.
 

do.ob

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I don't think fear of starting a game with yellow card should be that strong if you want to prove a point tbf. Especially if you are a striker and playing a game against Iran.

Players/people from football are just being hypocrites as always, nothing new here. Same when we got racism on online media but hardly anyone from them wanted to delete their social profiles in protest because it earns them lot of money. But they were fine to write and complain because that cost them nothing.



It's just a yellow card.
I don't know .. I think most people would rather have a bit of support than complete rejection. And I'd rather be called a hypocrite than a homophobe myself.
 

Dan_F

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Bump.


I reckon discusssion about all this(quoted post below) now is irrelevant because everyone refused to wear it now, and not just random muslim bloke that made the headlines? As I suspected the first time, when Modric and other players refused it, it's not a big story, but random muslim player refuses it and lt's the story of the week in the western media(and redcafe).
Well done for an utterly terrible take. Not only are people mis placing their anger on the players, rather than FIFA. We’re now also bunching them in with actual homophobic footballers :lol:
 

Amar__

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I don't know .. I think most people would rather have a bit of support than complete rejection. And I'd rather be called a hypocrite than a homophobe myself.
In the grand scheme of things that homophobe guy is not even important. It's exactly the bolded thing, players would rather be hypocrites than send a message, and the entire point of the rainbow armband is sending the message.

And even getting a yellow card would be a strong message actually. But then they care too much about themselves not to take one for the team, even though they would convince you otherwise.

Well done for an utterly terrible take. Not only are people mis placing their anger on the players, rather than FIFA. We’re now also bunching them in with actual homophobic footballers :lol:
No one is doing that. But then they don't deserve much praise either because they are not ready to stay behind their reasonings, even if it would cost them yellow card.
 
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