For very good DM/CM most important thing is how you read a game. How intelligent (in football) you are. DM/CM is most underrated position in football. It's not only tackles and speed. That's why many people not happy with Fred. He is running, tackles everything that moves and still doesn't look convincing.
Lindelof - new DM?
- Thread starter Mylock
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If you actually read my post, I agreed with you about Lindeloff, however, I stated would like to see those risks tried in game once in a while as I believe now our squad can cope.
Also I drew parallels between Bailly's playing profile being lite versions of Ndidi and Ndombele and would prefer to see that over Lindeloff as he is more engaging, tenacious and press resistant.
But regardless I would like us to try something new 'in game'.
Aguero's a bad trainer and many others, its not unusual for professional players to rise to a good level on match day.
But I do concede if any of this is to be successful, Ole and his team have to vigorously coach whatever player appropriately.
And in relation to risk taking, I feel Ole protects his players from fan abuse which limits him to trying things more frequently tbh.
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Nope, but I've seen him play plenty at CB which tells me he doesn't have what it takes to be a DM.
I think my response was an explanatory version of why I don't think he's a good option and also not a better option than any of the current midfielders.
The main point is when you say Lindelof has a nice touch and can pass, yes he does..but for a centre half. Whereas you are already criticising the current incumbents by the standards of central midfielders. All the intricacies of the roles come into this such as how the ball is received, awareness, opposition response to receiving the ball and the expectation of ball progression.
So when you talk about standards and a basis for comparison this is probably the most relevant issue when appraising them all together as a group. I tried not to do this because there isn't a direct comparison within the role, only a speculative one - so I stuck to what I see from Lindelof in terms of attributes.
I think if there is anybody that is a natural to develop into a DM it is McTominay. He already has the phsyical prowess, he has good size to help aerially, he's already accustomed to a midfield role, he's young enough that he can learn. His positioning and tendencies towards going forward are a problem at the moment hence why he's considered a box to box player, but it's far, far less speculative.
Your last one is the main point of most in here. Why not give it a try, if the alternative is so bad? Try him in games we definitely going to win, and see how it works. It's not like we try him as goalkeeper or striker. Pogba was never a LM before, but he did pretty good (and most here like him in that position). Carrick was attacking midfield (or attacking B2B), before moving as DM with us.
Also Kimmich and Alaba (in NT) as DM are still recent enough.
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I know alot of fans have talked about this but has Ole ever bought this up?
Ie Lindelof can be one of our CDM?
Ie Lindelof can be one of our CDM?
Because I think I agree with most who suggest Lindelof would be even worse, and is it really worth taking even more confidence away from Fred by trying this experiment?
I always thought Maguire could do well in that position tbh
Funny I reckon AWB could be decent in that role . The guy can tackle and play a pass . Only downside is we have very little backup for RB if he did
He’s afraid to tackle and avoids any sort of physicality as a defender so ya let’s put him as a DM 
As I said, experiment it on games we're most likely win. Fred can have a rest also. If Lindelof can do better than Fred, why would you worried about Fred's feeling? If we're afraid to hurt Fred's feeling, are you saying we're not gonna try to buy a new DM?
I think people confuse his ability with playing a long ball as a centre back not being pressed, with being capable of playing through balls as a midfielder. He's nowhere near capable of playing in midfield. Doesn't have the mobility, doesn't have the composure under pressure, and lowers the technical level in midfield, which is already very low.
I also think people get a bit confused when they compare our current midfield to SAF's midfield in 2012-2013. For one thing, that team was full of leaders, and was managed by the best manager in football history, who could get away with sometimes crazy midfield selections.
Unless Ole is going to install new players in midfield (Donny or Mejbri) he will most definitely have to show what he's made of as a tactician and a coach.
I also think people get a bit confused when they compare our current midfield to SAF's midfield in 2012-2013. For one thing, that team was full of leaders, and was managed by the best manager in football history, who could get away with sometimes crazy midfield selections.
Unless Ole is going to install new players in midfield (Donny or Mejbri) he will most definitely have to show what he's made of as a tactician and a coach.
Yeah very true and too many times he is found wanting when it comes to this
Don't think Solskjaer has. He rarely talks tactics with the media though.
Mourinho mentioned it a few times:
From Mourinho in reference to Lindelof being a good ball carrier and passer:
Lindelof has also talked about it.
Thanks. That's interesting and I wonder what would make ole potentially change his mind and give Lindelof a chance there - maybe a carabao cup game.
Absolutely. Finally some sense. When will people realize that defenders with decent ball playing skills are not midfielders.
Are you talking about our right back who is shit scared of the ball ?
I really hope some of you are wumming with the 'Jones/Lindelof at DM' ideas.
Thankfully Ole and our coaching staff aren't silly to even contemplate trying that.
Thankfully Ole and our coaching staff aren't silly to even contemplate trying that.
I don't think playing Lindelof as DM is an experiment for him as a footballer. Yes he might struggle to adapt ole's tactic in that pisition, but he might be also blended with the team quickly.
Anyone who said Lindelof was never played DM is clueless, go check his page on transfermarkt.com They put DM as other position for him. Because he did played as DM in the 2nd division of Portugal.
Anyone who said Lindelof was never played DM is clueless, go check his page on transfermarkt.com They put DM as other position for him. Because he did played as DM in the 2nd division of Portugal.
As if football at this level was just so easy for most players to just simply play in various positions.
Sure but I guess it's not about his feelings, it's about him going back out there even less confident and putting out even worse performances but I wasn't going that far as to say to not buy a DM so Fred feels loved, no. I could be wrong but I just think as soon as Lindelof is tried there, he will struggle even more than he does at CB, he'll look lost, and he'll probably cost the team because it's the Premier League and it's a really difficult position to play, so even a winnable game can be lost on gambles like that, which can wind up costly come end of season. If Fred needs a rest and there's an injury crisis, you can justify it, but there's been nothing to indicate Lindelof could even do a job there. Until there's a better option, Fred's going to need support because he can do a job at times at that position, he's had good games here but they're just too uncommon.
Yeh. I understand this. When I said winnable games, maybe when we're on 4-0 score, dead rubber games, or in cup games against inferior lower league teams.
Even SAF tried Rio once as DM, and at least we knew he didn't cut it. Then SAF tried Jones very often also, and liking him to Duncan Edwards. He tried Ole as RW/RF and it was pretty successful. Hargreaves as RB (or was it RW), and it worked well before injuries. Brown as RB. Evra as RB. Giggs became CM. Carrick as DM. Silvestre as LB and CB. Park as CM. A successful manager like SAF, tried players at different positions.
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Ah, okay. Then I'm with you, feck it...what's the worse that could happen? The only issue is if he does decent and there's that temptation to try it in higher competition, then it might be a disaster.
I'm just desperate for us to see any change in midfield, man. I've never seen any big club with a poor midfield like us.Henderson is not going to get his position as a goalkeeper so maybe we should give him a run-out at this DM because apparently you can throw a mediocre CB in there to do a job. I am sure Henderson wants to give it a try too.
Cannot see any DM qualities in him to be fair. Plays a lovely long ball though.
Such experiments are nonsense and a waste of time.
The questions to ask here is: what is the pecking order for the position from the pool of players we've got to select from? And: what does Lindelof potentially give or fail at if moved forward?
Matic is our one and only DM, after him, literally any player we have in the 1st team squad that you put there is a round peg in a square hole. To varying degree, granted, but every other player is ill-equipped and ill suited to the position. The problem here is Matic looks completely spent at this level to the point he is a liability on and off the ball unless we have complete control of the game from the outset and he's reduced to simply sweeping up and relaying the ball.
McFred work via pressing as a pair and abandoning position, which often leaves us exposed and wide open on counters down the middle, but on the other hand, what they then do is instinctive and organic, which makes the game as simple and constructive as it can be for the both of them, warts and all. You put either of them as the anchor and every instinct and impulse that helps them thrive as central midfielders is taken away from them. Both become tentative and unsure of what the right thing to do in a DM situation is - they don't know when to wait; when to go towards the ball; where to place themselves positionally nor do they provide the calming assured presence you want in a defensive midfielder, so that those orbiting them can expand and make space, confident that their DM has complete control of the situation and can then be progressive with the ball. In fact, both cause unrest as they can't be trusted to make the right decisions nor use the ball conservatively and pragmatically until the opportunity to be more expansive presents itself.
People can slaughter them all they want, but the simple solution is not to put the DM burden on either if them in the first place, and if you do, to be fully expectant of potential calamity being right around the corner at any given moment in a game.
Outside of Matic and McFred, we don't have the selection to be picky from, which is what I find rather bemusing reading through dismissive replies, like the DM situation is not actually dire. Matic was the only competent one we had in the first place, and without him, it's a free for all of mishaps no matter who you put there, so is the objection revolving how bad it can get there and how far below the perceived bar Lindelof would be?
It feels as though 'DM' is being held to an ideal archetype we don't have at the club currently and Lindelof then being measured against that rather than the reality of comparing and contrasting him to the personnel here, at the club, right now, which is a wholly different discussion.
Unless Matic is repeatedly rolled out in the hope he can find some way of rolling the years back or adapting his game to his fading body, there is only, realistically, McFred working in tandem as a pair of CM's who can make discussion of either Lindelof or Jones being played in that DM role completely redundant, imo.
Lindelof's lack of physicality is brought up as a con in midfield, but you don't typically get big, powerful and rapid specimens playing in that area of the pitch, certainly not when compared to the forwards who barrel through him.
His technical ability is also fairly questioned: can he handle the reduced processing time in midfield and does he have the technical nous to execute? Matic currently takes 3-4 touches to get the ball under control and do something with it, and he hides from receiving it; Fred is wildly erratic with the ball and not a player I'd put the house on in situations where he has to think and use the ball intelligently; McTominay hides a lot and, like Fred, doesn't like the responsibility of using the ball thoughtfully.
It's not some stellar compare and contrast here - it's a bunch of players who are not comfortable or particularly capable of anchoring that you have to vs. Lindelof or Jones with. All you'd want from either of them is the ability to read the play and interpret it from a defensively responsible point of view (which only Matic, from our actual midfield set, can do), and then have enough about them to pass the ball to a teammate, no matter how safe and 'boring' their expression and attempt is. You don't need DLP range from them; you don't need Carrick levels of competence; you just need the shape of midfield maintained, defensive discipline and as simple as you like passing as long as it finds another red shirt.
The bar we have for DM amongst what we have is low and even then, we don’t have the midfielders to meet it, so if the CM pack-hunting of McFred is not on the table - which is clearly our best option - there are sizeable cons to any midfielder we have performing the role; I have my doubts Lindelof or Jones compound that, rather they bring different flaws to the role, but should at least have the discipline and understanding of what they're there to do, which every midfielder we have outside of Matic does not. Jones, not Lindelof would be the ideal if McFred aren't out there, imo, but if he's unfit, I'd have no more jitters with Lindelof anchoring than I would with a seemingly way past it Matic, or excitable and naive Fred.
Matic is our one and only DM, after him, literally any player we have in the 1st team squad that you put there is a round peg in a square hole. To varying degree, granted, but every other player is ill-equipped and ill suited to the position. The problem here is Matic looks completely spent at this level to the point he is a liability on and off the ball unless we have complete control of the game from the outset and he's reduced to simply sweeping up and relaying the ball.
McFred work via pressing as a pair and abandoning position, which often leaves us exposed and wide open on counters down the middle, but on the other hand, what they then do is instinctive and organic, which makes the game as simple and constructive as it can be for the both of them, warts and all. You put either of them as the anchor and every instinct and impulse that helps them thrive as central midfielders is taken away from them. Both become tentative and unsure of what the right thing to do in a DM situation is - they don't know when to wait; when to go towards the ball; where to place themselves positionally nor do they provide the calming assured presence you want in a defensive midfielder, so that those orbiting them can expand and make space, confident that their DM has complete control of the situation and can then be progressive with the ball. In fact, both cause unrest as they can't be trusted to make the right decisions nor use the ball conservatively and pragmatically until the opportunity to be more expansive presents itself.
People can slaughter them all they want, but the simple solution is not to put the DM burden on either if them in the first place, and if you do, to be fully expectant of potential calamity being right around the corner at any given moment in a game.
Outside of Matic and McFred, we don't have the selection to be picky from, which is what I find rather bemusing reading through dismissive replies, like the DM situation is not actually dire. Matic was the only competent one we had in the first place, and without him, it's a free for all of mishaps no matter who you put there, so is the objection revolving how bad it can get there and how far below the perceived bar Lindelof would be?
It feels as though 'DM' is being held to an ideal archetype we don't have at the club currently and Lindelof then being measured against that rather than the reality of comparing and contrasting him to the personnel here, at the club, right now, which is a wholly different discussion.
Unless Matic is repeatedly rolled out in the hope he can find some way of rolling the years back or adapting his game to his fading body, there is only, realistically, McFred working in tandem as a pair of CM's who can make discussion of either Lindelof or Jones being played in that DM role completely redundant, imo.
Lindelof's lack of physicality is brought up as a con in midfield, but you don't typically get big, powerful and rapid specimens playing in that area of the pitch, certainly not when compared to the forwards who barrel through him.
His technical ability is also fairly questioned: can he handle the reduced processing time in midfield and does he have the technical nous to execute? Matic currently takes 3-4 touches to get the ball under control and do something with it, and he hides from receiving it; Fred is wildly erratic with the ball and not a player I'd put the house on in situations where he has to think and use the ball intelligently; McTominay hides a lot and, like Fred, doesn't like the responsibility of using the ball thoughtfully.
It's not some stellar compare and contrast here - it's a bunch of players who are not comfortable or particularly capable of anchoring that you have to vs. Lindelof or Jones with. All you'd want from either of them is the ability to read the play and interpret it from a defensively responsible point of view (which only Matic, from our actual midfield set, can do), and then have enough about them to pass the ball to a teammate, no matter how safe and 'boring' their expression and attempt is. You don't need DLP range from them; you don't need Carrick levels of competence; you just need the shape of midfield maintained, defensive discipline and as simple as you like passing as long as it finds another red shirt.
The bar we have for DM amongst what we have is low and even then, we don’t have the midfielders to meet it, so if the CM pack-hunting of McFred is not on the table - which is clearly our best option - there are sizeable cons to any midfielder we have performing the role; I have my doubts Lindelof or Jones compound that, rather they bring different flaws to the role, but should at least have the discipline and understanding of what they're there to do, which every midfielder we have outside of Matic does not. Jones, not Lindelof would be the ideal if McFred aren't out there, imo, but if he's unfit, I'd have no more jitters with Lindelof anchoring than I would with a seemingly way past it Matic, or excitable and naive Fred.
But if we play with 3 cb's? That would suit our more attacking midfield, or am I thinking wrong?
It’s worth a shot. Moyes played Phil Jones in midfield ffs, Lindelof can likely bridge the gap till we sign a proper CDM next summer.
While there is example of someone converting from full back into winger, and winger into successful striker, our own history of CMF covering for CB has not been good. Carrick + Fletcher played CB once if I remember correctly, but more to do with desperation than wisdom. Jones has been tipped to do well in both positions, ending up in neither. Fabino & Henderson made their stint as CB cover for a prolong period of time, but consensus they are much more useful in the middle, even if Liverpool should field an inexperienced CB.
In short, what a stupid idea. When someone is good in a certain position, chance of him being good in another is not high. What is wrong with Lindelof being 3rd choice CB? He will still play 20+ games a season.
In short, what a stupid idea. When someone is good in a certain position, chance of him being good in another is not high. What is wrong with Lindelof being 3rd choice CB? He will still play 20+ games a season.
You don’t need to play him as a dm, but we could use him to play 3 at the back, which would help Pogba being in a 2.
A key attribute for a good DM is the ability to sense danger. Based on Lindelof's past history of dodgy defending, I don't think he rates very highly in this aspect.
You beat me to it- would rather that.
I always used to laugh at fan suggestions that players should swap positions and could be good elsewhere and then Graham Potter arrived at Brighton and showed that you could chop and change people's positions every week!
Now I think it's worth taking these thoughts a bit more seriously.
Lindelof has played as a central midfielder before in his career so the position is not new to him. He reads the game well and controls the space well in CB, his biggest weakness in my mind is in the air, bit this isn't so important at DM. He can certainly pass and is comfortable with the ball at his feet and as that video above shows his successful tackling rates are actually quite high and certainly higher than anyone else currently playing in that position for you.
I think McT will ultimately be the person that Ole plays there, but having laughed at the idea originally the more I think bout it, the more it could be worth giving Lindelof a try there.
Now I think it's worth taking these thoughts a bit more seriously.
Lindelof has played as a central midfielder before in his career so the position is not new to him. He reads the game well and controls the space well in CB, his biggest weakness in my mind is in the air, bit this isn't so important at DM. He can certainly pass and is comfortable with the ball at his feet and as that video above shows his successful tackling rates are actually quite high and certainly higher than anyone else currently playing in that position for you.
I think McT will ultimately be the person that Ole plays there, but having laughed at the idea originally the more I think bout it, the more it could be worth giving Lindelof a try there.
He likes getting the ball? Could have fooled me! He treats it like a hot potato
He would be terrible against a press I would imagine
I used to think this was a joke. I'm starting to doubt it.
Have to agree, on top of that he can't handle being put under pressure with the ball at his feet. Which would happen often at the DM position.