Lingard, Mata and Pereira

SweetRightFoot

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 24, 2019
Messages
372
Don't forget slow-turn-then-sideways-pass-Matic and hoof-a-shit-ball-up-the-line-to-no-one-Young
 

settembrini

Full Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2015
Messages
3,283
I feel sorry for Pereira. He's working hard and it's not his fault he's unsuited to being a right winger and is only there because we don't a single one in the squad.

Lingard and Mata have no excuse for their performances this season. It's like their in a competition with each other to see who can be the more ineffective #10.
 

luke511

Full Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2013
Messages
6,887
I got their Opta stats (green background) for premiership games and added in Angel Gomes' Europa game. Then I wrote a formula (see Aggregate column). Gomes has a positive Aggregate = 40 (which is excellent in comparison to other players). The terrible 3 have negative Aggregates of -4, -5, and -11. Also added the average of the MEN ratings (2nd column).
Great work this mate cheers.
 

Ekeke

Full Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Messages
53,080
Location
Hope, We Lose
Andreas has a good moment in him but he's always getting dispossessed, he's been dreadful this season and a reason why we've constantly lost the ball in dangerous positions. He's the least bad out of the 3 for sure but is partly to blame for our mediocrity in attack recently.
He's been no worse than Rashford in the league in the last couple of games, whilst doing more defensively (2nd most tackles in the team after AWB). Average yes, among our worst performers so far this season? Not even close to Mata and Lingard
 

luke511

Full Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2013
Messages
6,887
He's been no worse than Rashford in the league in the last couple of games, whilst doing more defensively (2nd most tackles in the team after AWB). Average yes, among our worst performers so far this season? Not even close to Mata and Lingard
Rashford has been awful as well and I think he's back up LW/ST level at the moment and for the future, but he's good enough to be getting games and featuring at least. Pereira is pretty good off the ball but if that's main strength and output to the team when he's playing in those offensive positions then that's a red flag. He's lost possession more times than anyone in the team, in relative terms that outweighs the defensive statistic by a long way.
 

Ekeke

Full Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Messages
53,080
Location
Hope, We Lose
Rashford has been awful as well and I think he's back up LW/ST level at the moment and for the future, but he's good enough to be getting games and featuring at least. Pereira is pretty good off the ball but if that's main strength and output to the team when he's playing in those offensive positions then that's a red flag. He's lost possession more times than anyone in the team, that outweighs the defensive statistic by a long way.
hes lost the ball, also won lots of freekicks. One of which he had a good effort saved himself

I agree that its not ideal that its mainly pressing and tackling that your RW has brought to the team, but someone has to do it. We lost Ander and didnt replace him, our ball winning is done by a combination of Andreas, McTominay and AWB. Without them doing that job the defense will have even more pressure on it and we're currently conceding a goal a game on average. Lots of them coming from individual mistakes from our defenders. So giving them more work to do is likely to result in even more individual errors.

None of Andreas, McTominay and AWB can do the ball winning alone like Ander did. So its shared between the team and thats why Andreas has a role. He's also playing on the right unlike the other 3 making his stats irrelevant to theirs. They are playing in their favoured position behind the striker, Andreas is playing on the right.
 

Fosu-Mens

Full Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
4,101
Location
Fred | 2019/20 Performances
Pereira is at least a decent set piece taker. And could play a deep midfield role where passing the ball accurately is the main job. Mata and Lingard offers little.
 

luke511

Full Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2013
Messages
6,887
Pereira is at least a decent set piece taker. And could play a deep midfield role where passing the ball accurately is the main job. Mata and Lingard offers little.
Pereira was tested in a deep role under Mourinho and it went terribly, he has his slight strengths but what's the point when he's so wasteful and sloppy with the ball at his feet when it matters.
 

luke511

Full Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2013
Messages
6,887
hes lost the ball, also won lots of freekicks. One of which he had a good effort saved himself

I agree that its not ideal that its mainly pressing and tackling that your RW has brought to the team, but someone has to do it. We lost Ander and didnt replace him, our ball winning is done by a combination of Andreas, McTominay and AWB. Without them doing that job the defense will have even more pressure on it and we're currently conceding a goal a game on average. Lots of them coming from individual mistakes from our defenders. So giving them more work to do is likely to result in even more individual errors.

None of Andreas, McTominay and AWB can do the ball winning alone like Ander did. So its shared between the team and thats why Andreas has a role. He's also playing on the right unlike the other 3 making his stats irrelevant to theirs. They are playing in their favoured position behind the striker, Andreas is playing on the right.
He's played as CAM twice and played exactly the same game, and the fact that he's been playing as our right winger adds to the point of the thread really. Contributes to the imbalance and mediocrity in attack.
 

Judas

Open to offers
Joined
Jun 28, 2010
Messages
35,964
Location
Where the grass is greener.
Pereira is at least a decent set piece taker. And could play a deep midfield role where passing the ball accurately is the main job. Mata and Lingard offers little.
We've seen this before and its fecking disaster. He's not good enough to play there, too weak, lacks the concentration and too wasteful with the ball. He can either play as a ten or thats it really.
 

Ekeke

Full Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Messages
53,080
Location
Hope, We Lose
He's played as CAM twice and played exactly the same game, and the fact that he's been playing as our right winger adds to the point of the thread really. Contributes to the imbalance and mediocrity in attack.
He does, but while strengthening us defensively. And you can't ignore that.
 

Fosu-Mens

Full Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
4,101
Location
Fred | 2019/20 Performances
Pereira was tested in a deep role under Mourinho and it went terribly, he has his slight strengths but what's the point when he's so wasteful and sloppy with the ball at his feet when it matters.
We've seen this before and its fecking disaster. He's not good enough to play there, too weak, lacks the concentration and too wasteful with the ball. He can either play as a ten or thats it really.
Compared to the other options? They have certainly performed no better... Matic and McTominay offers nothing on the ball.
 

King Andow

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 6, 2014
Messages
1,172
Location
Brazil
We've seen this before and its fecking disaster. He's not good enough to play there, too weak, lacks the concentration and too wasteful with the ball. He can either play as a ten or thats it really.
Also not a decent set piece taker, look at his corners in the last game, worse than Young.
 

Idxomer

Full Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Messages
15,013
What a decision to keep tham and giving new contacts to two of them while letting 3 proven players who play in similar positions leave.
 

Judas

Open to offers
Joined
Jun 28, 2010
Messages
35,964
Location
Where the grass is greener.
Compared to the other options? They have certainly performed no better... Matic and McTominay offers nothing on the ball.
You really think he's a better option in that position than McTominay? I'm not McTominay fanboy, but its frankly ridiculous that you think Andreas would be better there than him.
 

Fosu-Mens

Full Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
4,101
Location
Fred | 2019/20 Performances
You really think he's a better option in that position than McTominay? I'm not McTominay fanboy, but its frankly ridiculous that you think Andreas would be better there than him.
If we are looking for a player that can sit deep and pass, then yes. Thus allowing PP to go forward. Problem with Pereira is that his decisionmaking around the oppos box is really bad. If he his given the role to simply pass and retain possession safely, he might contribute and perform well.

Problem is that the rest of the team are sh*t at passing the ball and keeping possession, so makes little sense in playing the likes of Pereira, Mata and Gomes.
 

Based Adnan

Full Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2014
Messages
4,063
Ole needs to pull his finger out and realize we don't have a good enough 10 to warrant playing a 10 every week. Not sure what he's waiting for.
 

Snuffkin

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Messages
671
everyone is scared to do anything around the box, so they just play the predictable pass
 

VorZakone

What would Kenny G do?
Joined
May 9, 2013
Messages
32,618
Was Mata always a sideways passing merchant even in chelsea days? He always likes to play risk free football, was that the case even at chelsea?
Mata was awesome for Chelsea.
 

Snuffkin

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Messages
671
Lingard who even goes as far as hiding from the ball
He should know better, as should Mata, you can forgive the kids but the old heads should be able to handle the pressure. That said, I don't think Mata should be playing the second half when we are usually up against it. He should be on when both defences are there to be unlocked. He is never going to be a super-sub. The one player who looks like he is enjoying himself is Greenwood.
 

Lee565

Full Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2019
Messages
4,978
Lingard wasn't too bad before Solskjear took over, he was like our new jung si park in big games for van Gaal and Mourinho, he was definitely a very good squad player but has suffered under Solskjear's coaching much like nearly the entire squad.
 

Sandikan

aka sex on the beach
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
52,710
Lingard wasn't too bad before Solskjear took over, he was like our new jung si park in big games for van Gaal and Mourinho, he was definitely a very good squad player but has suffered under Solskjear's coaching much like nearly the entire squad.
Hang on, when Jose was here, we said everyone was affected by his "coaching" too.
Ole had that initial buzz like new managers have, but it was such an extreme and long buzz that it seemed to be a bit more than the usual.

We then thought it was maybe because the players had been left so out of shape, and the new "Intense" style was ruining them.

I have no idea what excuse if any we can use now. Beyond both management and players aren't good enough.
 

Sandikan

aka sex on the beach
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
52,710
I think Mata is and has been totally shot away for a long time. He needs his games picked more carefully than anyone else.
Small side games, I'm sure he looks good, but in the real stuff, he's just simply too slow, and too weak.

Pereira just doesn't look to have anywhere near enough about him. It's magnified out wide.

Lingard I think there is a place for, but as a squad player.
Any idea of him to be relied on as a big creative starter, or number 10 is just laughable on sheer lack of output.
 

Lee565

Full Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2019
Messages
4,978
Hang on, when Jose was here, we said everyone was affected by his "coaching" too.
Ole had that initial buzz like new managers have, but it was such an extreme and long buzz that it seemed to be a bit more than the usual.

We then thought it was maybe because the players had been left so out of shape, and the new "Intense" style was ruining them.

I have no idea what excuse if any we can use now. Beyond both management and players aren't good enough.
Aside from the that final half season under Mourinho I didnt see how players were failing under his coaching and there was more to Mourinho's bad third season than his coaching with the sulking, getting into the power clash with pogba, playing players all over the place to prove some point to Woodward that we should have signed more players in that summer and creating an awful toxic environment, the signing of Sanchez on crazy wages certainly didnt help as well with dressing room harmony.
 

passing-wind

Full Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Messages
3,041
Solskjaer's lack of accomodation for a system to implement our attacking players make the perspective that these players are worse than they are. Mata and Pereria are garbage for me under most circumstances (though Mata when he's engaged does keep the ball ticking). Lingard is at bear a decent option, he's proved so with a few performances under Mourinho and for England. Too many fans are looking at the players and not enough with how Solskjaer is coaching them.
 

luke511

Full Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2013
Messages
6,887
Solskjaer's lack of accomodation for a system to implement our attacking players make the perspective that these players are worse than they are. Mata and Pereria are garbage for me under most circumstances (though Mata when he's engaged does keep the ball ticking). Lingard is at bear a decent option, he's proved so with a few performances under Mourinho and for England. Too many fans are looking at the players and not enough with how Solskjaer is coaching them.
Solskjaer has nothing to do with Lingard's shite performances. He's nowhere near good enough, if he wasn't blessed with coming through the academy he'd be playing at a lower league level.
 

ArjenIsM3

Full Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2015
Messages
5,633
Location
Netherlands
I got their Opta stats (green background) for premiership games and added in Angel Gomes' Europa game. Then I wrote a formula (see Aggregate column). Gomes has a positive Aggregate = 40 (which is excellent in comparison to other players). The terrible 3 have negative Aggregates of -4, -5, and -11. Also added the average of the MEN ratings (2nd column).
Sample size is way too small to do any kind of statistical analysis.
 

Mark Pawelek

New Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2014
Messages
2,598
Location
Kent, near London
Sample size is way too small to do any kind of statistical analysis.
Yet other posters here tell me:
Pereira is at least a decent set piece taker. And could play a deep midfield role where passing the ball accurately is the main job. Mata and Lingard offers little.
Pereira ... could play a deep midfield role where passing the ball accurately is the main job
Do my stats, at least, contradict this fanciful hope?

PS: I was an Andreas fan. By now, I've mostly given up. I can't see a role for him. Not even good enough to be a squad player for United. Not at: #6, #7, #8 nor #10. There are far better players out there earning a lot less than him. United don't move enough of their squad on each summer. A club with such a so-so squad should be bringing in at least 5 players per summer transfer window. If the transfer budget is only £100m/year Ole should bring in cheaper players. Buy more players like James, and fewer like Maguire. When you look outside the big 5 leagues there are plenty of better players than our terrible 3. Either coaching, or tactics are wrong. I think we play Pogba too deep to accommodate an attacking midfielder because the squad balance says we have players who will be good attacking midfielders. They are not good.

You are only as good as your last few games.
 
Last edited:

Hawks2008

Full Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2015
Messages
4,912
Location
Melbz
Criminal decision from the club to persist with these 3 wasters. I refuse to believe that Bruno Fernandes would not have been an improvement.
 

Sky1981

Fending off the urge
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
30,002
Location
Under the bright neon lights of sincity
I feel sorry for Pereira. He's working hard and it's not his fault he's unsuited to being a right winger and is only there because we don't a single one in the squad.

Lingard and Mata have no excuse for their performances this season. It's like their in a competition with each other to see who can be the more ineffective #10.
I dont care if it's his fault or not. If you cant perform you're out.

Nothing personal.
 

Seb burrow

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Sep 1, 2019
Messages
74
For me mata is good to have round the squad as we lack experience.

But the other players should know their best positions by now.

We haven’t got time for passengers anymore and neither should we try to restructure our team round them.

Ole was right to give them a chance but its not paid off with some of them.

Desperate for a new RW, CM and perhaps a CAM for when pogba goes.
 

Nikelesh Reddy

Full Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2017
Messages
1,912
Pretty much very awful game so far has involved 2 of these 3 players taking up the no.10 and RW position. It tactically doesn't work and none of them are fit for the bench. It blows my mind that this was seen as adequate enough in the summer. Solskjaer's fault or Woodwards?
Perreira looks woefully out of place on the RW....Doesn’t look entirely comfortable as a RCM....Not sure what’s his best position,don’t think he’s good enough for United.Lingard and Mata are good squad players,but your bound to be in serious trouble if you rely on those 2 to win matches consistently....
 

Fosu-Mens

Full Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
4,101
Location
Fred | 2019/20 Performances
Yet other posters here tell me:

Pereira ... could play a deep midfield role where passing the ball accurately is the main job
Do my stats, at least, contradict this fanciful hope?

PS: I was an Andreas fan. By now, I've mostly given up. I can't see a role for him. Not even good enough to be a squad player for United. Not at: #6, #7, #8 nor #10. There are far better players out there earning a lot less than him. United don't move enough of their squad on each summer. A club with such a so-so squad should be bringing in at least 5 players per summer transfer window. If the transfer budget is only £100m/year Ole should bring in cheaper players. Buy more players like James, and fewer like Maguire. When you look outside the big 5 leagues there are plenty of better players than our terrible 3. Either coaching, or tactics are wrong. I think we play Pogba too deep to accommodate an attacking midfielder because the squad balance says we have players who will be good attacking midfielders. They are not good.

You are only as good as your last few games.
Difference between passing in the final third and from a deep position without pressure. He can pass well under specific circumstances.
I'm not saying that he should be a starter, but he could serve a purpose against teams sitting low compared to many other options at the club. I'm not talking about him having a long future here, what i was refering to was in the now among the options in the current squad.

PP is played way to deep and should be our CAM. Let our "ball playing defenders" contribute more in the buildup so that PP does not have to drop so deep.
 

SteveW

Full Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
7,194
3 passengers. Pereira is trying his best but he's fecking shite. Can't wait until everyone is fit and we can stop picking these 3