Lionel Messi is OFFICIALLY the Greatest Player of all Time (CONFIRMED OFFICIAL)

Always surprised me how he went playing like that at Barcelona and then how he ended up playing at PSG.
His first season was not good but there were off the pitch reasons for that. He may play like the god of football but he is actually human.

He was arguably their best player in the first half of his second season, Neymar being the alternative choice. After the World cup, he clearly stopped giving a toss as can be seen in his decision not to renew for PSG. It was time for semi retirement.
I think it’s almost forgotten because he’s been around for so long how electric he was from 2009 to 2012 on the ball. He got better at other things like free kicks and controlling the game but he was a phenomenon then. 2011 CL final and all the pundits are saying he’s the best ever, a sense of awe. That’s why when I see people say the likes of Ronaldo or Ronaldinho were better in their peak… nah it’s still Messi.
I'd argue from season 2006/2007 to 2012/ 2013 when he got injured and was rushed back. That version of Messi is the absolute best player I have seen in my life. We had isolated seasons in 2014/15 and 2018/19 that were close to these. The early seasons don’t get recognised because he spent 3 months on the treatment table in each season but when fully fit, he was THE best in the world regardless of whether Kaka or Cristiano won the ballond'or.
 
He was obviously the best in the world at so many aspects of the game, but god, his dribbling and control of the ball. He’s the only player I’ve ever seen who could just take the ball whenever he wanted, no matter how many opposition players were around him.
 
His first season was not good but there were off the pitch reasons for that. He may play like the god of football but he is actually human.

He was arguably their best player in the first half of his second season, Neymar being the alternative choice. After the World cup, he clearly stopped giving a toss as can be seen in his decision not to renew for PSG. It was time for semi retirement.
I'd argue from season 2006/2007 to 2012/ 2013 when he got injured and was rushed back. That version of Messi is the absolute best player I have seen in my life. We had isolated seasons in 2014/15 and 2018/19 that were close to these. The early seasons don’t get recognised because he spent 3 months on the treatment table in each season but when fully fit, he was THE best in the world regardless of whether Kaka or Cristiano won the ballond'or.

Agreed. He was electric during those years.
 
He was obviously the best in the world at so many aspects of the game, but god, his dribbling and control of the ball. He’s the only player I’ve ever seen who could just take the ball whenever he wanted, no matter how many opposition players were around him.
I saw a lot, and when I say a lot I mean well over half, of Messi's official games at Barcelona, but he was so ridiculously good so regularly that I sort of took it for granted at the time, and when I watch highlights of his peak years I realise I'm if anything subconsciously underestimating him all the time. He was destroying everybody on a daily basis, it didn't matter it was Getafe, Real Madrid, the great United of the UCL finals, etc. I may be wrong and truly can't say because I haven't watched them enough, but I find it unlikely that Pelé and/or Maradona were so ludicrously dominant week in week out.
 
Best player I’ve seen in my lifetime. Plain and simple.



As someone has already said, he was still very good - the elite levels he has shown gave us expectations that he’d win the treble there. Any other player would be happy with the seasons he had there.
I think the first season was the problem. He wasn't good. I don't think he wanted to leave Barcelona. But by the second season, he was performing really well.

Also, there is the strange correlation of all his international success occurring after he left Barcelona, almost as if he had to leave in order to unlock something in that arena.

Even if you want to look at his PSG period as a minus, it's more than made up for by the fact that he's captained one of the most successful international sides of all time over the last four years. I don't think super success with PSG would have been an adequate substitute for that.
 
He's the greatest ever. Maradonna 2nd.
 
Out of everyone I've seen week in week out, he's the greatest. Watching him at his peak was something else. Not just his fantastic goals, dribbles but the little touches here and there that just oozed class.

Can't wait for the kids in the 2050s tell us how shite he and Cristiano were but for now, he's the greatest for me.
 
He's by far the best player to ever touch a ball.

It's always hard to compare players from different eras but the level Pele and Maradone competed in were rubbish compared to Messi. Obviously you can claim that Maradona, Pele etc. didn't have the cicumstances or opportunity Messi did. The point remains, football evolves and gets better and Messi was absolutely dominant for over a decade. If we see a player like him in my lifetime again I will make sure to watch every piece of it.

I honestly believe that some of the greats would never make it in todays game. With a drinking, drugs and partying lifestyle you have no chance today or even during Messis prime. Everyone 's extremely fast, athletic and fit. If you went straight from the pub to a cup final you would be throwing up on the pitch within 25 minutes.

Edit: Bonus fact, I actually played (he was later my manager) with one of his teammates for a while (he was at United briefly) who said something I will never forget when we were in the dressing room asking him about ronadlo vs Messi. He said, in Messis first practice with the first team at 15/16 they were amazed. After the first week Van Brocnkhorst and him said, he is the best player in the world. Barcelona keept him away from making a debut for another 6 months or so after this but everyone in and around the team already knew.
 
Last edited:
He's by far the best player to ever touch a ball.

It's always hard to compare players from different eras but the level Pele and Maradone competed in were rubbish compared to Messi. Obviously you can claim that Maradona, Pele etc. didn't have the cicumstances or opportunity Messi did. The point remains, football evolves and gets better and Messi was absolutely dominant for over a decade. If we see a player like him in my lifetime again I will make sure to watch every piece of it.

I honestly believe that some of the greats would never make it in todays game. With a drinking, drugs and partying lifestyle you have no chance today or even during Messis prime. Everyone 's extremely fast, athletic and fit. If you went straight from the pub to a cup final you would be throwing up on the pitch within 25 minutes.

Edit: Bonus fact, I actually played (he was later my manager) with one of his teammates for a while (he was at United briefly) who said something I will never forget when we were in the dressing room asking him about ronadlo vs Messi. He said, in Messis first practice with the first team at 15/16 they were amazed. After the first week Van Brocnkhorst and him said, he is the best player in the world. Barcelona keept him away from making a debut for another 6 months or so after this but everyone in and around the team already knew.
Those where the times. If those same pros were born and grew up in this lifestyle they would also get all the modern equipment, facilities, balls, shoes, sports scientists, nutrition experts.
I firmly believe that if george best played today he would be reconize as one of the greatest of all time. How he controlled that ball in those minefields with a brick for a ball with defenders trying to break his legs and what he would do today on those pool table pitches with lightweight shoes and a modern ball. It would be amazing to see.
 
Those where the times. If those same pros were born and grew up in this lifestyle they would also get all the modern equipment, facilities, balls, shoes, sports scientists, nutrition experts.
I firmly believe that if george best played today he would be reconize as one of the greatest of all time. How he controlled that ball in those minefields with a brick for a ball with defenders trying to break his legs and what he would do today on those pool table pitches with lightweight shoes and a modern ball. It would be amazing to see.
Possibly.

i'm a nostalgic as well and loved the Ronaldinho types and so on.

However, with addictive behaviour there's no chance in todays game. The greats under the right training could probably be great agian because of their superior technical and physical ability.

The likes of Neville, Carrgher and so on, not a chance.
 
Football has moved on in the last 20 or 40 years. It's a lot faster and more demanding now. Modern players are just better and Messi is at the apex. Then there is his sheer volume and longevity of performance - the games, goals, assists, trophies, awards, year after year. Messi > everyone else who ever kicked a ball.

It's also interesting in this recent era of great athleticism that Messi is a short, slight guy.
 
Possibly.

i'm a nostalgic as well and loved the Ronaldinho types and so on.

However, with addictive behaviour there's no chance in todays game. The greats under the right training could probably be great agian because of their superior technical and physical ability.

The likes of Neville, Carrgher and so on, not a chance.
So Messi didn't play against Gary Neville? Or Jamie Carragher? I'd take a prime Gary right now. Im sure most teams would.
Also for some reason their is this misconception that player have improved over the last ten years when stats prove otherwise. Look at successful dribbles. In 2015 season marhez 150. 2024 kudos 124. And players have more protection now then ever. Why hasn't it gone up?
In the 2015-16 Premier League season, Scott Arfield (Burnley) led in total distance covered with 429.7 km. 2024 it was Bruno Guimaraes at 423.1 km. Down again. However there is this claim that players are fitter and technically better. Stats say no as do the eye test.
 
Last edited:
I trully think that there is not such thing of the best ever without a shadow of a doubt, or better said, we should not try to seek that or even endorse such extremes or absolute ideas.

Every period had their bunch of absolute elite geniues level (for lack of better term) players and they should be respected within those terms.

Of course their would be players with the better stats, in terms of titles, goals or any sort of metric, yet that it's a huge rabbit hole to enter when we add the context of every player in their period, their club, the League, the timing of their carreers. And even a deeper rabbit hole when people try to rank the "level" of those metrics.

I don't think there is such a huge gap in terms of talent when we talk about these very off the charts fellas no matter their period, it's not that taxative as everything in the past was worse and everything now it's better, overall I agree that things at some point evolve, get fitter, faster, yet it's another matter when we talk about these very special fellas like a DI Stefano, Puskas, Cryuff, etc and more in the context of a game that does not play as a straight thing as winning the Olympics 100 metres race.

On the other hand I do not suscribe either that a freak like Pele or Alfredo, nowadays will jump half a meter more, nor run the 100 mts. in 3 seconds less with the better training avaiable, or that they would score three times more and such, because nothing it's that simple and like every coin, it will always have two sides that constantly balance each other.

At the end of the day, when we start this silly only GOAT stuff and such, we tend to end putting too much focus on what we thing turns the table to the player we are more prone to support or like. I've seen people talking more about rough fouls, awuful pitches, worse training, smaller teams etc etc if for instance liking more Diego or Pele, and talk about a faster game, facing teams build like the merge of top NTs, lots of fit players everywhere if they dig more Messi.

The thing it's that we probably should talk more about who we PERSONALLY like most regarding the atributes of the player in question, his abilities, his tendencies, his style, without dissing the period or the player himself when we compare it to another we don't dig or not liked as much.
This threads tend to end in really very silly conclusions like Messi couldn't survive in Serie A in the 80's or Diego could not hack it nowadays or that Cristiano is a tap in merchant and Di Stefano almost a construction worker witha side job as a footballer.

Finally even a genius, phenom alike can end with a coach that doesn't like him, a bad timing injury, a war that cancels a WC and would not achieve what his talent should provide and this is sthg that also not few times it's way more importantthan we think when we and in this sort of rankings.
 
Those where the times. If those same pros were born and grew up in this lifestyle they would also get all the modern equipment, facilities, balls, shoes, sports scientists, nutrition experts.
I firmly believe that if george best played today he would be reconize as one of the greatest of all time. How he controlled that ball in those minefields with a brick for a ball with defenders trying to break his legs and what he would do today on those pool table pitches with lightweight shoes and a modern ball. It would be amazing to see.
Best today would still be an alcoholic, Maradona would still snort the white stuff, R9 would still be indisciplined; and their careers would've been exactly the way they were back then. Nothing in mordern sports science can change character and its consequences. The most recent example is Neymar, incredibly gifted but mad at the same time has totally underachieved given the humongous natural talent at his disposal.
 
So Messi didn't play against Gary Neville? Or Jamie Carragher? I'd take a prime Gary right now. Im sure most teams would.
Also for some reason their is this misconception that player have improved over the last ten years when stats prove otherwise. Look at successful dribbles. In 2015 season marhez 150. 2024 kudos 124. And players have more protection now then ever. Why hasn't it gone up?
In the 2015-16 Premier League season, Scott Arfield (Burnley) led in total distance covered with 429.7 km. 2024 it was Bruno Guimaraes at 423.1 km. Down again. However there is this claim that players are fitter and technically better. Stats say no as do the eye test.
He did, and was dominant against them.

I honestly think that todays football is a bit weird. Espcially the last 5-7 years where it's become so much more system based then before.

So my point is that this has raised the bar on the low part and how well educated, trained, athletic etc. the league in average is. It has however also elminated some of the height of top players. This era has less room for individuality in my opinion. It's weird and I prefer the game a bit different.

For instance I follow another team here in Sweden and their academy is producing increddible talents but every single player is pretty much the same. No one stands out and their ability to change the game on their own is next no none. In a system they're great. So all of them are really well drilled but their height s not better than the best players ten years ago.

My point with Neville and Carra is simply based on athetic and technical part.
 
The only player I’ve seen who can get away with that ‘lack of effort’. What he’s actually doing in that time though is scanning the game.
 
Best today would still be an alcoholic, Maradona would still snort the white stuff, R9 would still be indisciplined; and their careers would've been exactly the way they were back then. Nothing in mordern sports science can change character and its consequences. The most recent example is Neymar, incredibly gifted but mad at the same time has totally underachieved given the humongous natural talent at his disposal.
Exactly, and it’s a lazy cliche that all players in the past trained worse and were unhealthier than today’s players. Stanley Matthews’ dedication to fitness and other advantages would make a lot of current players blush. Pele was an athletic freak who worked very hard on his athleticism, Eusebio similar. Bobby Charlton could run all day.

Messi in his early days was actually just eating pizzas all the time and only focused on his diet 4 or 5 years into his career, talent got him where he was before that.

There are plenty of cases like George Best in the past, but today there are ones like Jack Grealish. And other distractions in today’s game, some talk the likes of Ozil and Sancho turning up for training and games dazed from playing video games all night.
 
He did, and was dominant against them.

I honestly think that todays football is a bit weird. Espcially the last 5-7 years where it's become so much more system based then before.

So my point is that this has raised the bar on the low part and how well educated, trained, athletic etc. the league in average is. It has however also elminated some of the height of top players. This era has less room for individuality in my opinion. It's weird and I prefer the game a bit different.

For instance I follow another team here in Sweden and their academy is producing increddible talents but every single player is pretty much the same. No one stands out and their ability to change the game on their own is next no none. In a system they're great. So all of them are really well drilled but their height s not better than the best players ten years ago.

My point with Neville and Carra is simply based on athetic and technical part.

This is why my personal view on Barcelona players are a little held back, even if its not other people's point of view.

They were the first possession based system team in world football managed by Guardiola. No one could handle them & nearly every team in world football had to change to playing system based tactics.

Either teams tried to emulate something similar to Pep's Barcelona or to simply had to play strategic systems to counter Guardiola/top team tactics; I think Klopp did the first system against possession.

SAF is the GOAT manager of all time, but he retired at the right time imo. Football was starting to change from getting the best out of individuals in a first 11 to a much more strategic and systematic approach.

It's why I found players like Valencia, Berbatov, Cleverley, Young a bit underwhelming after the Glazer takeover in comparison to seeing our last CL final teams. It seemed we were not getting the right players and not players that would get us playing a wonderful system.
 
So Messi didn't play against Gary Neville? Or Jamie Carragher? I'd take a prime Gary right now. Im sure most teams would.
Also for some reason their is this misconception that player have improved over the last ten years when stats prove otherwise. Look at successful dribbles. In 2015 season marhez 150. 2024 kudos 124. And players have more protection now then ever. Why hasn't it gone up?
In the 2015-16 Premier League season, Scott Arfield (Burnley) led in total distance covered with 429.7 km. 2024 it was Bruno Guimaraes at 423.1 km. Down again. However there is this claim that players are fitter and technically better. Stats say no as do the eye test.

Football has unquestionably become more physically intense over the last decade. And the stats back that up, or at least they do when you look at better stats for judging physical intensity than "distance covered".

Gq_1B6ZWEAA0wh_
 
Football has unquestionably become more physically intense over the last decade. And the stats back that up, or at least they do when you look at better stats for judging physical intensity than "distance covered".

Gq_1B6ZWEAA0wh_

Yes, without a doubt.

As mentioned before I played professionally until the age of 24/25 and there's a massive difference. Most of these guys today rarely touch alcohol, parties or even eat certain food. It's much more controlled by themselves, the club and the people around them.

This is also why they barely have any personlities IMO. You see the same interview every weekend with different players. This is due to education and what it takes to make it. They're all just trained in every aspect of the game. You're competing on a global level and you cannot afford to be sloppy. The demands are tougher. Every player in pro football today is an excellent athlete, they're all fast and all of them are fit.

I myself noticed when I got sloppy (being a fast winger myself) that I had no chance passing a player in the latter years. You lose half a second and that's the difference. So, in essence the good old stories of the guys who went to the pub before a PL-game or were drinking on a regular basis, they would have no chance today. Becuase fitness is essantial.
 
Messi and Cristiano are on the same pedestal and should be remembered as the very best of all time. If not for that injury in 2013, Cristiano would be the solo GOAT, in my opinion. But in terms of the top leagues played and dominated in, I would say Cristiano has matched Messi every step of the way. Of course in a few matches and esp UCL finals against us, it looked like Messi was a véritable God. I would still say that in those matches out him with 10 good/average players instead of the other worldies at Barca, and we would have at least one of those games. I wish at least one season both could have played together. That would have been something for sure. Combustible, maybe, but fun too.
 
I am not sure saying Messi is so much better than anything before is doing him any favors, because 50 years from now, people will then be saying the same about someone else. Who knows what sports science and sports medicine will look like that far in the future.

For me, it is Pele, Maradona and Messi, without any particular order, because i can't compare Messi to people I have never seen play and felt what they actually represented in their era, which is different to simply watching them play.
 
I am not sure saying Messi is so much better than anything before is doing him any favors, because 50 years from now, people will then be saying the same about someone else. Who knows what sports science and sports medicine will look like that far in the future.

For me, it is Pele, Maradona and Messi, without any particular order, because i can't compare Messi to people I have never seen play and felt what they actually represented in their era, which is different to simply watching them play.

Besides having such angle its juts wrong, nothing it's as straight forward as such view. One of the main reasons why it's a silly view it's that it's so unfair to the quality of players involved, a tendency that we clearly see quite a lot in the recent past with Di Stefano, Puskas and Pele and now it seems have reached even Maradona that still it's quite near in time.
 
Messi and Cristiano are on the same pedestal and should be remembered as the very best of all time. If not for that injury in 2013, Cristiano would be the solo GOAT, in my opinion. But in terms of the top leagues played and dominated in, I would say Cristiano has matched Messi every step of the way. Of course in a few matches and esp UCL finals against us, it looked like Messi was a véritable God. I would still say that in those matches out him with 10 good/average players instead of the other worldies at Barca, and we would have at least one of those games. I wish at least one season both could have played together. That would have been something for sure. Combustible, maybe, but fun too.
1. Which injury in 2013?

2. The biggest hurdle to Cristiano being in the absolute GOAT conversation isn’t any injury but his relative weakness in playmaking and dribbling. As a goalscorer and interms of athleticism he is top tier but falls behind significantly in other aspects.
 
1. Which injury in 2013?

2. The biggest hurdle to Cristiano being in the absolute GOAT conversation isn’t any injury but his relative weakness in playmaking and dribbling. As a goalscorer and interms of athleticism he is top tier but falls behind significantly in other aspect

1. Which injury in 2013?

2. The biggest hurdle to Cristiano being in the absolute GOAT conversation isn’t any injury but his relative weakness in playmaking and dribbling. As a goalscorer and interms of athleticism he is top tier but falls behind significantly in other aspects.
Knee problem in 2013 or 14 maybe. Remember clearly that he modified his playing style after that. Ceased being a wing forward and stopped dribbling sprints. Without that there wouldn't even be a debate on who's the better dribbler at speed. If you have followed his career at United and RM you wouldn't have had a doubt. He is not "significantly behind" in any aspect to any attacking player of the last 2 decades.
 
Knee problem in 2013 or 14 maybe. Remember clearly that he modified his playing style after that. Ceased being a wing forward and stopped dribbling sprints. Without that there wouldn't even be a debate on who's the better dribbler at speed. If you have followed his career at United and RM you wouldn't have had a doubt. He is not "significantly behind" in any aspect to any attacking player of the last 2 decades.

This it's not a dig on him at all as a Legend, but I dunno why people consider Cristiano's dribbling as superb prior to 2013/14 and that whole narrative of his injury.

Cristiano has been formidable in other aspects of the game, specially in heading, pace in counters, arriving to space, finishing in the area, overall his strike and when he dribbles near the rival area his marker and blasts the net...yet when comes to dribbling "in general" he never had the level of: control, balance, manage of time, space, surroundings and position of his mates and rivals; plus the decision making of the very best at it that comes with all that.
Something similar happens in terms of passing and operating in congested areas in regular basis (his roles will also prevent him to deal normally with such scenarios).

BTW, back on dribbling, I'm not saying the silly thing of him not beig Elite at dribbling, not being able of doing some great plays, yet the comparison it's with fellas like Maradona, Pele, R9, Zico and there it gets harder to be at that level, basicly being in the realm of the greatest historically at it.
I don't think you'll agree, yet it's an interesting thing to chat about.
 
Last edited:
Knee problem in 2013 or 14 maybe. Remember clearly that he modified his playing style after that. Ceased being a wing forward and stopped dribbling sprints. Without that there wouldn't even be a debate on who's the better dribbler at speed. If you have followed his career at United and RM you wouldn't have had a doubt. He is not "significantly behind" in any aspect to any attacking player of the last 2 decades.
1. The knee injury was in 2014 and no he did not modify any aspect of his game due to it. Infact the injury hardly kept him out and he was moving perfectly well. This injury is overplayed by his fans as a reason for his transition to becoming a poacher when in truth, it was his age that was the major factor.

2. Saying that he was the best dribbler before the said injury is completely false. His dribble completion rate was far behind Messi's both when the former was at United and at Real Madrid. As per this article https://www.skysports.com/football/...o-ronaldo-controlling-his-real-madrid-decline
he completed:
3.3 per game in 2009/10
2.3 per game in 2010/11
2.0 per game in 2011/12
1.8 per game in 2012/13
2.4 per game in 2013/14
1.6 per game in 2014/15
1.2 per game in 2015/16

In comparison, Messi’s dribbles completion rate as per this article
https://www.skysports.com/football/...-too-much-of-the-creative-burden-at-barcelona
was:

2009/10: 4.8 per game
2010/11: 6 per game
2011/12: 4.9 per game
2012/13: 4.2 per game
2013/14: 5 per game
2014/15: 4.8 per game
2015/16; 4 per game

The chasm was obvious.

3. Interms of playmaking, the chasm is similar. Just look for chances created, big chances created or key pass stats.

By far, of all the thing Cristiano did on the pitch at any stage of his career, his goals both interms of numbers and importance are/were the most impressive. If he hadn't been a great goalscorer, no one would be talking about him.
 
Messi and Cristiano are on the same pedestal and should be remembered as the very best of all time. If not for that injury in 2013, Cristiano would be the solo GOAT, in my opinion. But in terms of the top leagues played and dominated in, I would say Cristiano has matched Messi every step of the way. Of course in a few matches and esp UCL finals against us, it looked like Messi was a véritable God. I would still say that in those matches out him with 10 good/average players instead of the other worldies at Barca, and we would have at least one of those games. I wish at least one season both could have played together. That would have been something for sure. Combustible, maybe, but fun too.
No.

No.

No.
 


Came across this, not sure which mega thread there is for Lionel Messi's legacy and not necessarily his current time in Miami. Mods feel free to move this post if this is the wrong thread.

Other than maybe Pele, where it's too difficult to compare, I cannot imagine anyone better.

I don’t think we’ll see someone of his quality for a long time. That sort of genius where a player can pick up the ball and take on a defence is extremely rare.
 
Football has unquestionably become more physically intense over the last decade. And the stats back that up, or at least they do when you look at better stats for judging physical intensity than "distance covered".

Gq_1B6ZWEAA0wh_

I think it would be interesting to dig into those sprint stats. See how they came about them. The rapid increase is just unrealistic.
 
I think it would be interesting to dig into those sprint stats. See how they came about them. The rapid increase is just unrealistic.
Also if it was another sport with a graph like that, people would suspect systematic doping, looks ridiculous.
 
Messi and Cristiano are on the same pedestal and should be remembered as the very best of all time. If not for that injury in 2013, Cristiano would be the solo GOAT, in my opinion. But in terms of the top leagues played and dominated in, I would say Cristiano has matched Messi every step of the way. Of course in a few matches and esp UCL finals against us, it looked like Messi was a véritable God. I would still say that in those matches out him with 10 good/average players instead of the other worldies at Barca, and we would have at least one of those games. I wish at least one season both could have played together. That would have been something for sure. Combustible, maybe, but fun too.
Ah, the wrongness of it all.
 
He’s the best ever - his natural skill is unparalleled. Ball control, vision and execution - he had it all. Lucky that he was in my lifetime. Hopefully we’ll be lucky enough to see someone else come close soon.