Lionel Messi is OFFICIALLY the Greatest Player of all Time (CONFIRMED OFFICIAL)

[Jay-Z Roc-A-Fellaini]

People still talk about Ronaldo Vs Messi?

It's like asking people about who the best woman in the world is.

Some will choose the most good looking one, some might disagree & have other views about who they find good looking whilst others will go for a woman who is more mentally stable than a particularly a good looking woman.

The Ronaldo Messi debate is not about the player winning an award for their career - it's the fans fighting about their answer being right and how the other fan is wrong.

We all have differences in how we view the game and therefore value certain things that other people may not.

No answer is correct.
Some people think Maradona is better than Messi. Some people thing Ronaldo is better than Messi. Some people find Messi the best of all time. Some find Fat Ronaldo even better than alot of these players before injuries. Some find Pele as the best. Some don't even put C Ronaldo in their top 5.

Just because a political vote wins by a margin doesn't mean the losing side was wrong - they just had more votes whilst the others believe in something else. Lots of people voted for Brexit, a couple years later it's looking like the minority may have had a better choice but even that doesn't make it a right decision. If majority of the country voted against Brexit, it would lead to its own problems which would in hindsight have people wondering if they also made the wrong decision. Vice versa. No one wins.

 

[Gehrman]

Came across this, not sure which mega thread there is for Lionel Messi's legacy and not necessarily his current time in Miami. Mods feel free to move this post if this is the wrong thread.

Other than maybe Pele, where it's too difficult to compare, I cannot imagine anyone better.

He reailly did have that run of masterclasses against Real Madrid. It was only really in his 30´s, he stopped being a total menace.

 

[Scottynaldinho]

Messi's greatness can only be judged by people who saw him "full-time", not just a few big gams or highlights.

I used to watch almost any football game that I could get and the Messi in that Barcelona side is something that we've never seen before, will never see again. GOAT without a doubt.

 

[Swoobs]

Knee problem in 2013 or 14 maybe. Remember clearly that he modified his playing style after that. Ceased being a wing forward and stopped dribbling sprints. Without that there wouldn't even be a debate on who's the better dribbler at speed. If you have followed his career at United and RM you wouldn't have had a doubt. He is not "significantly behind" in any aspect to any attacking player of the last 2 decades.

The best version of CR7 dribbling at speed is still an inferior dribbler than the likes of Messi, Maradona and R9, so yes there is no debate because he belongs in the lower tier when we are talking about dribbling.

In terms of GOAT, he is also below Pele Messi and Maradona, he belongs to the 2nd tier with other legends such as Di Stefano, Beckenbaur and Cryuff.
However, if he rolls back the years and plays a vital role in Portugal winning the next WC (no we are not talking about scoring with his hair here), then there will be a good argument that he should join the top 3

 

[Swoobs]

People still talk about Ronaldo Vs Messi?

It's like asking people about who the best woman in the world is.

Some will choose the most good looking one, some might disagree & have other views about who they find good looking whilst others will go for a woman who is more mentally stable than a particularly a good looking woman.

The Ronaldo Messi debate is not about the player winning an award for their career - it's the fans fighting about their answer being right and how the other fan is wrong.

We all have differences in how we view the game and therefore value certain things that other people may not.

No answer is correct.
Some people think Maradona is better than Messi. Some people thing Ronaldo is better than Messi. Some people find Messi the best of all time. Some find Fat Ronaldo even better than alot of these players before injuries. Some find Pele as the best. Some don't even put C Ronaldo in their top 5.

Just because a political vote wins by a margin doesn't mean the losing side was wrong - they just had more votes whilst the others believe in something else. Lots of people voted for Brexit, a couple years later it's looking like the minority may have had a better choice but even that doesn't make it a right decision. If majority of the country voted against Brexit, it would lead to its own problems which would in hindsight have people wondering if they also made the wrong decision. Vice versa. No one wins.

Well some people believed in flat earth too. Some people also believe that Garnacho is a better player than Yamal. Some opinions are plain wrong

 

[Jay-Z Roc-A-Fellaini]

Well some people believed in flat earth too. Some people also believe that Garnacho is a better player than Yamal. Some opinions are plain wrong

Well no. You just assume your opinion is correct.

Things can change.

Yamal might move to a different leagues and a different club and find it hard to achieve his current form. Many have done so even playing for Barcelona. Yamal might get a career hit injury like Brazilian Ronaldo. Look at Musiala today. Garnacho might go on to have a better career in the future even if right now it may seem unlikely.

Neymar's change of performances from Barcelona to PSG was shocking to me. He was being called the next Pele at Barcelona, now he is nowhere near to Pele or even Ronaldinho.

Messi was a player I was disappointed in his performances for PSG, but it didn't surprise me either because I always thought playing outside Barcelona might reduce his performances a bit even if he continued to play at GOAT level.

You might think Scarlett Johansson is the most beautifu woman in the world because she's an well known actress whilst my partner isnt because shes working in burger king. But I find my partner better looking.

It's all just an opinion no one can win.

Messi is regarded as arguably the best creative player of all time, yet its Ronaldo who has the most assists ever in the champions league whilst looking like he is the most selfish player of all time until Garnacho appeared.

In the future we might even have a more selfish player than Garnacho then people are going to ask who was the more selfish player, garnacho or garnacho regen..different people will then have different opinions

 

[Brazilian_Ronaldo_9]

Well no. You just assume your opinion is correct.

Things can change.

Yamal might move to a different leagues and a different club and find it hard to achieve his current form. Many have done so even playing for Barcelona. Yamal might get a career hit injury like Brazilian Ronaldo. Look at Musiala today. Garnacho might go on to have a better career in the future even if right now it may seem unlikely.

Neymar's change of performances from Barcelona to PSG was shocking to me. He was being called the next Pele at Barcelona, now he is nowhere near to Pele or even Ronaldinho.

Messi was a player I was disappointed in his performances for PSG, but it didn't surprise me either because I always thought playing outside Barcelona might reduce his performances a bit even if he continued to play at GOAT level.

You might think Scarlett Johansson is the most beautifu woman in the world because she's an well known actress whilst my partner isnt because shes working in burger king. But I find my partner better looking.

It's all just an opinion no one can win.

Messi is regarded as arguably the best creative player of all time, yet its Ronaldo who has the most assists ever in the champions league whilst looking like he is the most selfish player of all time until Garnacho appeared.

In the future we might even have a more selfish player than Garnacho then people are going to ask who was the more selfish player, garnacho or garnacho regen..different people will then have different opinions

The downplay of C Ronaldo has been amazing in recent times. Whether it’s people forgetting his peak or anti Ronaldo fans after the interview.

The truth lies that both players were dominating the game and have different play styles. You can choose whichever, GOAT isn’t factual but matter of opinion whether certain players having more votes.

 

[Wand of a right foot]

Well no. You just assume your opinion is correct.

Things can change.

Yamal might move to a different leagues and a different club and find it hard to achieve his current form. Many have done so even playing for Barcelona. Yamal might get a career hit injury like Brazilian Ronaldo. Look at Musiala today. Garnacho might go on to have a better career in the future even if right now it may seem unlikely.

Neymar's change of performances from Barcelona to PSG was shocking to me. He was being called the next Pele at Barcelona, now he is nowhere near to Pele or even Ronaldinho.

Messi was a player I was disappointed in his performances for PSG, but it didn't surprise me either because I always thought playing outside Barcelona might reduce his performances a bit even if he continued to play at GOAT level.

You might think Scarlett Johansson is the most beautifu woman in the world because she's an well known actress whilst my partner isnt because shes working in burger king. But I find my partner better looking.

It's all just an opinion no one can win.

Messi is regarded as arguably the best creative player of all time, yet its Ronaldo who has the most assists ever in the champions league whilst looking like he is the most selfish player of all time until Garnacho appeared.

In the future we might even have a more selfish player than Garnacho then people are going to ask who was the more selfish player, garnacho or garnacho regen..different people will then have different opinions

Clearly a Cristiano fan who can't stand this thread.

1. Neymar was brilliant for PSG but had his injuries.
2. Messi's first season at PSG was poor due to off the field issues and the fact that he moved there way past his prime. After adjusting, he was arguably the their best player in his second season leading up to the world cup. After winning the said tournament, he stopped caring for European football and it was time to live a stress free life.
3. Ronaldo also has far more games and the quality of his assists are those of a forward.

 

[Fobal]

The downplay of C Ronaldo has been amazing in recent times. Whether it’s people forgetting his peak or anti Ronaldo fans after the interview.

The truth lies that both players were dominating the game and have different play styles. You can choose whichever, GOAT isn’t factual but matter of opinion whether certain players having more votes.

At the same time you are kind of validating the vision of Messi as a system player?.

Cristiano has been seen on quite a better shade of light his whole carreer than he actually deserves in terms of ability. His carreer on the other hand it's extraordinary and just in case, that better shade of light doesnt mean him not being a phenomenal player.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

He's pretty easily the best player that I've ever seen.

When I compare Ronaldo and Messi, I imagine them both being on the pitch for Man Utd when we were chasing a goal and thinking who I would want on the ball. I'd always want Messi on the ball.

 

[Swoobs]

Well no. You just assume your opinion is correct.

Things can change.

Yamal might move to a different leagues and a different club and find it hard to achieve his current form. Many have done so even playing for Barcelona. Yamal might get a career hit injury like Brazilian Ronaldo. Look at Musiala today. Garnacho might go on to have a better career in the future even if right now it may seem unlikely.

Neymar's change of performances from Barcelona to PSG was shocking to me. He was being called the next Pele at Barcelona, now he is nowhere near to Pele or even Ronaldinho.

Messi was a player I was disappointed in his performances for PSG, but it didn't surprise me either because I always thought playing outside Barcelona might reduce his performances a bit even if he continued to play at GOAT level.

You might think Scarlett Johansson is the most beautifu woman in the world because she's an well known actress whilst my partner isnt because shes working in burger king. But I find my partner better looking.

It's all just an opinion no one can win.

Messi is regarded as arguably the best creative player of all time, yet its Ronaldo who has the most assists ever in the champions league whilst looking like he is the most selfish player of all time until Garnacho appeared.

In the future we might even have a more selfish player than Garnacho then people are going to ask who was the more selfish player, garnacho or garnacho regen..different people will then have different opinions

So you are saying opinions that Garnacho the better player than Yamal is somehow valid because "You never know, things can change". Well in this case my 7 year old nephew will be a better player than pele maradona and messi combined because you never know, things can change.

 

[altodevil]

People still arguing for Cristiano

 

[Wand of a right foot]

The downplay of C Ronaldo has been amazing in recent times. Whether it’s people forgetting his peak or anti Ronaldo fans after the interview.

The truth lies that both players were dominating the game and have different play styles. You can choose whichever, GOAT isn’t factual but matter of opinion whether certain players having more votes.

No. It really isn’t about style. Rather, it is ability. In football, forward play is about goals, playmaking and constructive dribbling. In the last 2, Cristiano has always been atleast a tire below some of the all time greats. He compensates with goals and longevity.

If i was to name the greatest attacking footballers in this century, i'd name chronologically Zidane, Henry, Ronaldinho, Xavi, Iniesta, Cristiano, Messi, Modric, Neymar. Of all of these footballers, if Cristiano did not excel in goalscoring the way he did and did not have the phenomenal longevity, he simply wouldn’t make the list because of his deficiencies in other areas. Plus he has NEVER been a team player.

 

[AndySmith1990]

He's obviously the most complete attacking player ever. Passing, dribbling, touch, movement, vision, finishing. He's the best or one of the best at each one of them. No one comes close as a complete package. He's what you'd end up with if you were building the perfect attacking player, by taking the best attributes from the all time greats who aren't called Messi

 

[Pickle85]

Well some people believed in flat earth too. Some people also believe that Garnacho is a better player than Yamal. Some opinions are plain wrong

And again...this post is your opinion.

 

[Jay-Z Roc-A-Fellaini]

Clearly a Cristiano fan who can't stand this thread.

1. Neymar was brilliant for PSG but had his injuries.
2. Messi's first season at PSG was poor due to off the field issues and the fact that he moved there way past his prime. After adjusting, he was arguably the their best player in his second season leading up to the world cup. After winning the said tournament, he stopped caring for European football and it was time to live a stress free life.
3. Ronaldo also has far more games and the quality of his assists are those of a forward.

No im not.I'm like Mourinho & Wenger, I dont pick between Ronaldo vs Messi. To me they both have their strengths and weaknesses.

I think Messi's the best player I've ever seen & the way he plays won't be seen again but I like C Ronaldo's club career more; Ronaldo wouldn't even be in my top 5 when it comes to technical ability as player of football. Alot of Argentinians put Maradona over Messi so this Messi is GOAT is just a pure opinion.

Ronaldo not winning a world cup for me is quite a dent in his career & his legacy; so I completely understand why people put Pele, Maradona, Messi above him because they all have won the world cup. I can understand that opinion. At the same time, Messi not playing in a top league outside of La Liga is something that I wished he had proven. Messi scoring 91 goals in a calendar year for Barcelona is the best thing ive ever seen but it was a league he had mastered well in to his prime and I'd have loved to see him score something similar to a 91 goals a season in a different league; be that in the PL or the Serie A or maybe even Ligue 1. It ultimately didn't happen and whether he could have or not is still just a matter of opinion. Some will say yes, some will say no. There's no right answer.

Same with Tennis, my GOAT is actually a player who has only really won most of his trophies on a clay court. People say this is not right because he hasn't showed his ability to play in different grounds. Others pick tennis players that has won trophies on all different grounds.

I can understand the opinions of both, neither is correct. There maybe a majority, but that doesn't make it correct. Same way as Brexit is now viewed as the wrong decision to many even though at the time it was the minority who seemed to have got it right. But if the minority won they would have their own problems aswell.

Anyway, I dont want to talk about this anymore as its derailing the thread.

 

[Brazilian_Ronaldo_9]

At the same time you are kind of validating the vision of Messi as a system player?.

Cristiano has been seen on quite a better shade of light his whole carreer than he actually deserves in terms of ability. His carreer on the other hand it's extraordinary and just in case, that better shade of light doesnt mean him not being a phenomenal player.

Not really, Messi can play in most systems and excel at them. The only outlier was him playing with the once in a lifetime Pep Barca squad which other clubs struggled to play against including international teams against Spain.

No. It really isn’t about style. Rather, it is ability. In football, forward play is about goals, playmaking and constructive dribbling. In the last 2, Cristiano has always been atleast a tire below some of the all time greats. He compensates with goals and longevity.

If i was to name the greatest attacking footballers in this century, i'd name chronologically Zidane, Henry, Ronaldinho, Xavi, Iniesta, Cristiano, Messi, Modric, Neymar. Of all of these footballers, if Cristiano did not excel in goalscoring the way he did and did not have the phenomenal longevity, he simply wouldn’t make the list because of his deficiencies in other areas. Plus he has NEVER been a team player.

Disagree with your post, Neymar and co might be talented footballer but means nothing with the statement you made. You could argue Neymar and Ronaldinho are more talented footballers than Messi but still doesn’t mean they have exceeded past him. You mention Xavi and Modric as attackers, who are midfielders with different strengths and weaknesses, but believe they’re better than Ronaldo in attacking. I think you forget winger Ronaldo had pace and was dangerous on the counter.

 

[Jay-Z Roc-A-Fellaini]

So you are saying opinions that Garnacho the better player than Yamal is somehow valid because "You never know, things can change". Well in this case my 7 year old nephew will be a better player than pele maradona and messi combined because you never know, things can change.

Well there's a difference between 2 footballers deemed worthy of a conversation or a poll because they have achieved a lot in the same profession arguably at the same time.

Your brother hasn't done their GCSE's yet whilst my younger brother is a doctor. Who's the most intelligent between them? It could be yours, it could be mine. We ultimately don't know, they are in completely different times & career paths and its all still just a matter of opinion.

It's like asking who the best team in the world is - is it the Indian National Cricket Team or Barcelona's football team under Guardiola. There's no context between the sports and some would still have different opinions. Neither is wrong or right.

 

[Swoobs]

Well there's a difference between 2 footballers deemed worthy of a conversation or a poll because they have achieved a lot in the same profession arguably at the same time.

Your brother hasn't done their GCSE's yet whilst my younger brother is a doctor. Who's the most intelligent between them? It could be yours, it could be mine. We ultimately don't know, they are in completely different times & career paths and its all still just a matter of opinion.

It's like asking who the best team in the world is - is it the Indian National Cricket Team or Barcelona's football team under Guardiola. There's no context between the sports and some would still have different opinions. Neither is wrong or right.

On your brother anology, perhaps we do not know who is more intelligent between the two, but we know for sure your brother is a better doctor, until my brother proves otherwise.

Sorry but an opinion saying Garnacho is better than Yamal as a footballer has to be dismissed as delusional. It is plain wrong, and so far track record proves it.
That opinion might one day be right when facts proves it, but until then it is wrong.

 

[Fobal]

Not really, Messi can play in most systems and excel at them. The only outlier was him playing with the once in a lifetime Pep Barca squad which other clubs struggled to play against including international teams against Spain.



Disagree with your post, Neymar and co might be talented footballer but means nothing with the statement you made. You could argue Neymar and Ronaldinho are more talented footballers than Messi but still doesn’t mean they have exceeded past him. You mention Xavi and Modric as attackers, who are midfielders with different strengths and weaknesses, but believe they’re better than Ronaldo in attacking. I think you forget winger Ronaldo had pace and was dangerous on the counter.

What I was implying it's that you've used a post with quite a portion of biased to complain how in some cases Cristiano is badly treated.

PD: actually Ney and RG are not more talented than Messi, like they are not more talented than Zico either, without entering the Pele/Maradona level. Yet thats a chat that will end badly like almost any chat in the context of a big public forum. Consistency with Messi isn't that important as sometimes people used it to evaluate or validate his talent. Same with stats or even Titles.

 

[Wand of a right foot]

No im not.I'm like Mourinho & Wenger, I dont pick between Ronaldo vs Messi. To me they both have their strengths and weaknesses.

I think Messi's the best player I've ever seen & the way he plays won't be seen again but I like C Ronaldo's club career more; Ronaldo wouldn't even be in my top 5 when it comes to technical ability as player of football. Alot of Argentinians put Maradona over Messi so this Messi is GOAT is just a pure opinion.

Ronaldo not winning a world cup for me is quite a dent in his career & his legacy; so I completely understand why people put Pele, Maradona, Messi above him because they all have won the world cup. I can understand that opinion. At the same time, Messi not playing in a top league outside of La Liga is something that I wished he had proven. Messi scoring 91 goals in a calendar year for Barcelona is the best thing ive ever seen but it was a league he had mastered well in to his prime and I'd have loved to see him score something similar to a 91 goals a season in a different league; be that in the PL or the Serie A or maybe even Ligue 1. It ultimately didn't happen and whether he could have or not is still just a matter of opinion. Some will say yes, some will say no. There's no right answer.

Same with Tennis, my GOAT is actually a player who has only really won most of his trophies on a clay court. People say this is not right because he hasn't showed his ability to play in different grounds. Others pick tennis players that has won trophies on all different grounds.

I can understand the opinions of both, neither is correct. There maybe a majority, but that doesn't make it correct. Same way as Brexit is now viewed as the wrong decision to many even though at the time it was the minority who seemed to have got it right. But if the minority won they would have their own problems aswell.

Anyway, I dont want to talk about this anymore as its derailing the thread.

1. Mourinho considers Messi the best of "our generation" despite being Portuguese, despite managing Real Madrid and Cristiano. Wenger gives an edge to Messi.

2. This whole idea that Messi only did it playing for Barcelona was completely laid to rest when Messi won the World Cup with Argentina as the player of the tournament. He has infact won olympic gold, u20 wc, copa America and the world cup as the tournament MVP.

3. One argument that most people who voice support for Cristiano come up with is that he did it in different leagues. The thing they do not mention is that he played for very strong teams and under some of the best managers such that him not defending and being deficient in phases of attacking play outside scoring did not matter because others more than compensated for it. Such players don't carry teams, they are carried because of their goalscoring.

4. The opinion in Argentina re Maradona vs Messi has changed significantly since Dec 18, 2022. They are now considered equal. Maradona had a larger than life persona and 1986 wc, Messi has the ball at his feet and the 2022 wc.

In short, anyone who is not biased and has watched Messi play cannot claim any player atleast in this century to have been equal, let alone better whether it is peak performances or career wise. Messi in his prime was football.

Not really, Messi can play in most systems and excel at them. The only outlier was him playing with the once in a lifetime Pep Barca squad which other clubs struggled to play against including international teams against Spain.



Disagree with your post, Neymar and co might be talented footballer but means nothing with the statement you made. You could argue Neymar and Ronaldinho are more talented footballers than Messi but still doesn’t mean they have exceeded past him. You mention Xavi and Modric as attackers, who are midfielders with different strengths and weaknesses, but believe they’re better than Ronaldo in attacking. I think you forget winger Ronaldo had pace and was dangerous on the counter.

1. Neither Neymar nor Ronaldinho were more talented than Messi. More entertaining if you like tricks and flicks for sure but at the aspects that matter, Messi had the beating of them for sure.

2. As for Ronaldo on the wing, there is one single season after he matured that he actually played as a winger and excellence at it which was 06/07. Thereafter, he was an inside forward.

3. Spain were utterly defensive because you could say they did not have Messi.

4. This whole idea that Messi only did it playing for Barcelona was completely laid to rest when Messi won the World Cup with Argentina as the player of the tournament. He has infact won olympic gold, u20 wc, copa America and the world cup as the tournament MVP. Name one player who achieved this.

5. Im not saying Modric and Xavi are better attackers than Cristiano because you can't ignore goals but at playmaking, they were definitely better.

 

[Jay-Z Roc-A-Fellaini]

1. Mourinho considers Messi the best of "our generation" despite being Portuguese, despite managing Real Madrid and Cristiano. Wenger gives an edge to Messi.

2. This whole idea that Messi only did it playing for Barcelona was completely laid to rest when Messi won the World Cup with Argentina as the player of the tournament. He has infact won olympic gold, u20 wc, copa America and the world cup as the tournament MVP.

3. One argument that most people who voice support for Cristiano come up with is that he did it in different leagues. The thing they do not mention is that he played for very strong teams and under some of the best managers such that him not defending and being deficient in phases of attacking play outside scoring did not matter because others more than compensated for it. Such players don't carry teams, they are carried because of their goalscoring.

4. The opinion in Argentina re Maradona vs Messi has changed significantly since Dec 18, 2022. They are now considered equal. Maradona had a larger than life persona and 1986 wc, Messi has the ball at his feet and the 2022 wc.

In short, anyone who is not biased and has watched Messi play cannot claim any player atleast in this century to have been equal, let alone better whether it is peak performances or career wise. Messi in his prime was football.
1. Neither Neymar nor Ronaldinho were more talented than Messi. More entertaining if you like tricks and flicks for sure but at the aspects that matter, Messi had the beating of them for sure.

2. As for Ronaldo on the wing, there is one single season after he matured that he actually played as a winger and excellence at it which was 06/07. Thereafter, he was an inside forward.

3. Spain were utterly defensive because you could say they did not have Messi.

4. This whole idea that Messi only did it playing for Barcelona was completely laid to rest when Messi won the World Cup with Argentina as the player of the tournament. He has infact won olympic gold, u20 wc, copa America and the world cup as the tournament MVP. Name one player who achieved this.

5. Im not saying Modric and Xavi are better attackers than Cristiano because you can't ignore goals but at playmaking, they were definitely better.

Wenger says both are equal but it's easier to give an edge to Messi because he is aesthetically pleasing.
It's what I said, I think Messi is the most beautiful footballer ive ever seen but I like Ronaldo's club career more.

Players prefer messi, players like Mbappe also prefers Ronaldo. That's their opinion.

At the moment Messi won the world cup, i thought- Messi is easily the Goat. He finally could do it outside of Barcelona. However after a while i changed my mind to both being equal/not picking again because there is a difference in winning a world cup in 2 months and playing a full league season. World cups are heavily influenced by things that cant be controlled. Salah not winning a WC with egypt vs Salah ability to win a league with Liverpool puts him in different situations. That doesnt mean that Portugal & Egypt are similar, but that means in a world cup - a player like Salah can't influence a match to defeat Argentina and show his ability. However if Messi came to the PL playing for United then Messi and Salah would have to compete with each other leading to diverse levels of success both individually and for the clubs they play for. It's why teams like Germany, Brazil, Argentina, Italy, France tend to be the only teams that every really win the World Cup. England has only won it once, Uruguay seemed to win it the first years of the WC but now it seems very unlikely that it ever happens again.

Now on to another La Liga Legend. I was looking at Sergio Ramos's biography recently. Many think he is the best attacking CB in the history of football. I also think his career was much more influenced by his attacking ability than his actual defensive ability. I wonder how he would have been viewed long term playing in a different league where he would have to do more defending than actually attacking. People will then bring up the CL but there's still a difference between taking on a single team from a random league in a cup once a season vs playing against 19 similar teams through out a year.
For me Sergio Ramos is a legend, but to me his legacy is heavily influenced by the team and league he played for. Then people can bring up him to Maldini. Maldini only ever played for AC Milan and they could argue that Maldini never competed outside of Serie A. However, during Maldini's Era going to the PL or La Liga was not an upgrade on the competitors, it would have been an easier competition similar to how Ramos and Messi ended up moving to Ligue 1 from La Liga which was a step down in competition. Still after all of this, there no definite answer to whether Ramos would have been just as good playing for AC Milan in the 90s and it's just an opinion.

I wanted to see Messi have something close to a 91 goals in a calendar year in the PL, Serie A, but he didn't even do it at PSG which would have still been an eye opener atleast because he did it outside of a league he mastered well in to his prime. The league had clearly become too easy for him & id have liked to see him try for a new challenge and actually succeeded. Ronaldo on the other hand has constantly challenged himself, he played in the PL, then in Spain, then in Serie A. He didn't miss a single top league. Was consistent, became the top goalscorer of all time, most assists in CL football. I mean the guy is selfish clearly trying to win the world cup at the age of 40 so he can become one of the GOATs again because him not winning a WC is viewed as a dent in his career.

He is a very selfish player looking for his own happiness than his club or country. (i noticed this most in his reaction to Bale's CL final bycicle kick vs Liverpool where Bales Bycicle kick was better than Ronaldo's vs Juventus & he looked jealous). This is why many fans think he is big headed and ruining Portugal's national teams ability. He is doing it for himself, but at the same time he has succeeded in alot of his challenges & its why he is up there with numerically with the best players of all time even if he is nowhere near the technical as the rest. Ronaldinho for example is a better footballer than C Ronaldo - Ronaldinho had a better prime than Ronaldo, but his prime was short, only really hitting his absolute peak at Barcelona over a few years. He moved to AC Milan and then wasnt really the same player. C Ronaldo on the other hand has been on a much much longer peak even if his peak is not as great whilst also performing in every top league in the world at the same time and breaking records & achievements.

Could Pele win in a champions league instead of just world cups, could Ronaldo win a World Cup for Portugal, Could Messi replicate his Barcelona form throughout a season outside of La Liga, how would Maradona be regarded without his hand of god goal and without his Ephedrine and 4 other drugs found in his urine?

All players have strengths that I think epitomises why they are regarded as GOAT, but all players also have question marks that were never addressed - so there is never a definitive 100% correct answer. It's just an opinion.

 

[Gehrman]

Ronaldinho for example is a better footballer than C Ronaldo - Ronaldinho had a better prime than Ronaldo, but his prime was short, only really hitting his absolute peak at Barcelona over a few years.

Ronaldinho wasnt even the same player at Barcelona once he stopped giving a feck and decided to let go of professionialism because now he had won it all. That's why Barcelona sold him afterall.

But he was still electric for PSG and Brazil before he went to Barca

 

[The holy trinity 68]

No answer is correct.

Actually, Messi being better is correct.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

He's obviously the most complete attacking player ever. Passing, dribbling, touch, movement, vision, finishing. He's the best or one of the best at each one of them. No one comes close as a complete package. He's what you'd end up with if you were building the perfect attacking player, by taking the best attributes from the all time greats who aren't called Messi

This is how it is. Messi at his peak was the best at so many aspects, even when he wasn't scoring, he was head and shoulders above everyone.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

At the same time, Messi not playing in a top league outside of La Liga is something that I wished he had proven.

Something that gets ignored by people that say this, don't realise Messi scored more goals combined vs Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool than Cristiano, and Messi never even played in their division.

Messi dominated against English teams time after time, yet people question if he could perform against Stoke, Wolves, Hull, Bolton, Wigan, Fulham, Portsmouth etc. The notion is laughable.

Aguero was incredible in the PL, yet Messi was miles ahead of him when both were in La Liga and playing for Argentina. Aguero was so good in the PL, what do you think Messi would have done.

 

[LochGormanAbú]

Something that gets ignored by people that say this, don't realise Messi scored more goals combined vs Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool than Cristiano, and Messi never even played in their division.

Messi dominated against English teams time after time, yet people question if he could perform against Stoke, Wolves, Hull, Bolton, Wigan, Fulham, Portsmouth etc. The notion is laughable.

Aguero was incredible in the PL, yet Messi was miles ahead of him when both were in La Liga and playing for Argentina. Aguero was so good in the PL, what do you think Messi would have done.

I'm going to call that wrong, I've always rated Messi as the best but no way he has scored more goals against those teams when including Premier league and domestic cup games.

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

When I think of attackers, I’d say the main three broad dynamics are scoring, dribbling and play making. You can break them down into heading, weak foot, crossing, vision, touch etc - but they will all come under the umbrella of those three attributes.

Ronaldo will go down as one of the greatest goal scorers of all time. Fact.
Messi will go down as one of the greatest goal scorers, dribblers and playmakers of all time. Fact.

I don’t see how this is a debate anymore. This whole “opinions aren’t wrong” thing is just a cop out answer. People can have a preference between players That doesn’t automatically make their opinion valid when it comes to a question of who’s better.

Same way that if I had to name my dream Welsh rugby 15, I’d probably try and get Gavin Henson in there as I thought his peak was insane. About 95% of Welsh fans will choose someone else. It’s a preference but I appreciate that I’m probably wrong.

I get bemused when people don’t give Ronaldo his plaudits and play down his achievements. The man has done enough to be in the conversation.
I get just as bemused when people try and make out that Ronaldo could hold a candle to Messi. The only thing Ronaldo could stake a claim at is being the greatest goalscorer. All the other query GOATs have more than one great dynamic - dribbling + goalscoring, or goalscoring + dribbling - or all bloody three!

 

[The holy trinity 68]

I'm going to call that wrong, I've always rated Messi as the best but no way he has scored more goals against those teams when including Premier league and domestic cup games.

Then you would be wrong.

Against Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool, Messi stats are 27 games played, 21 goals and 6 assists.

Cristiano stats are 58 games played, 15 goals and 6 assists.

 

[Gehrman]

I'm going to call that wrong, I've always rated Messi as the best but no way he has scored more goals against those teams when including Premier league and domestic cup games.

No stats tell you that opposite

 

[Jay-Z Roc-A-Fellaini]

Something that gets ignored by people that say this, don't realise Messi scored more goals combined vs Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool than Cristiano, and Messi never even played in their division.

Messi dominated against English teams time after time, yet people question if he could perform against Stoke, Wolves, Hull, Bolton, Wigan, Fulham, Portsmouth etc. The notion is laughable.

Aguero was incredible in the PL, yet Messi was miles ahead of him when both were in La Liga and playing for Argentina. Aguero was so good in the PL, what do you think Messi would have done.

This has been run to the ground.

It's not about Messi's ability to play against Millwall.

It's Messi's ability to play in a different team to Barcelona - then playing in a league that's not in La Liga through a course of a season with different teams, types of players and tactics.

Ronaldo's fanboys seems to be his ex club supporters or players & managers who have played with him compared to Messi who is viewed much more widely as the best.

However, I can still understand what SAF said. He never said that Messi can't play against Millwall. That's just stupid.

He said that whilst Messi has the ability to play for Barcelona; that Ronaldo has the ability to play for Millwall. The way that Barcelona play is suited to Messi's game more than Messi trying to adapt to play to Millwall's tactics.

This is why SAF said Ronaldo can play for Millwall - not against Millwall. I can see what he is saying because Ronaldo's skill set is much more basic than Messi's similar to an automatic car vs manual car. One is a more basic way of driving making it an easier drive for alot of people. One is more specific way of driving making it more complex way of driving. This is why Messi is regarded as the goat/most aesthetically pleasing - he looked like he had control of everything and every technique. Yet Ronaldo went on to be consistent in 3 different leagues because his play style is more basic yet adaptable to different teams, tactics and players. What happened as soon as Messi went to PSG? If I remember right he got turned in to a pure attacking midfielder because of other players or tactics & whilst good, wasn't exactly exquisite. I can't even be bothered to talk about the adaptability that footballers have to go through non footballing wise that can affect careers like Antony and Di Maria outside their own culture or comfort zones.

No one doubts Messi's ability to play for Barcelona against the best teams in the world be that English teams, German Teams, French Teams or Ukrainian teams - he nailed that perfection a long time ago & is why he is regarded as the GOAT.

The simple way to ask is - do you see Messi replicating his 91 calendar goal scoring form whilst playing in the PL for Manchester United, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool?

If you do then it's your opinion & your entitled to it I ultimately never got to find that out so I've got no answer so I'm left a little dissapointed. I'm disappointed in not seeing Pele outside of Brazil and Ronaldo's performances in the world cup knock outs, Maradona without drugs so I have questions and reasoning for all sides of the coin. That leaves my opinion on who the GOAT is as quite open minded.

 

[Bole Top]

man, this thread brings back some memories... that glorious WC, one performing like true GOAT, the other one behaving like a little bitch and trying to steal teammates goals... and then every CR/Portugal fan literally disappearing from caf after the final

just incredible that there were those who watched both and thought they were looking equally talented players. as clueless as you can possibly get.

the only player that made me watch Barca games every week.

 

[cafecillos]

It's just opinions, Taibi may have been as good or even better than Schmeichel, who are we to tell?

 

[Massive Spanner]

This is how it is. Messi at his peak was the best at so many aspects, even when he wasn't scoring, he was head and shoulders above everyone.

Come on, we all know he was the best but that's ridiculous, he's only 5ft 7".

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

This has been run to the ground.

It's not about Messi's ability to play against Millwall.

It's Messi's ability to play in a different team to Barcelona - then playing in a league that's not in La Liga through a course of a season with different teams, types of players and tactics.

Ronaldo's fanboys seems to be his ex club supporters or players & managers who have played with him compared to Messi who is viewed much more widely as the best.

However, I can still understand what SAF said. He never said that Messi can't play against Millwall. That's just stupid.

He said that whilst Messi has the ability to play for Barcelona; that Ronaldo has the ability to play for Millwall. The way that Barcelona play is suited to Messi's game more than Messi trying to adapt to play to Millwall's tactics.

This is why SAF said Ronaldo can play for Millwall - not against Millwall. I can see what he is saying because Ronaldo's skill set is much more basic than Messi's similar to an automatic car vs manual car. One is a more basic way of driving making it an easier drive for alot of people. One is more specific way of driving making it more complex way of driving. This is why Messi is regarded as the goat/most aesthetically pleasing - he looked like he had control of everything and every technique. Yet Ronaldo went on to be consistent in 3 different leagues because his play style is more basic yet adaptable to different teams, tactics and players. What happened as soon as Messi went to PSG? If I remember right he got turned in to a pure attacking midfielder because of other players or tactics & whilst good, wasn't exactly exquisite. I can't even be bothered to talk about the adaptability that footballers have to go through non footballing wise that can affect careers like Antony and Di Maria outside their own culture or comfort zones.

No one doubts Messi's ability to play for Barcelona against the best teams in the world be that English teams, German Teams, French Teams or Ukrainian teams - he nailed that perfection a long time ago & is why he is regarded as the GOAT.

The simple way to ask is - do you see Messi replicating his 91 calendar goal scoring form whilst playing in the PL for Manchester United, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool?

If you do then it's your opinion & your entitled to it I ultimately never got to find that out so I've got no answer so I'm left a little dissapointed. I'm disappointed in not seeing Pele outside of Brazil and Ronaldo's performances in the world cup knock outs, Maradona without drugs so I have questions and reasoning for all sides of the coin. That leaves my opinion on who the GOAT is as quite open minded.

It’s a ridiculous argument though because of course Messi could play for Milwall, he’d be their best player by far and be signed by a better team within a year. Talent is talent.

Also I believe Messi would have scored 40+ in the Premier League that season he scored 50 in La Liga. Messi is a few steps above the players that scored 30+ in the PL. Ronaldo left before his peak and scored 31 in a season, if Ronaldo himself had stayed he may have pushed towards 40 goals, so would Suarez.

Also that argument is quite outdated and originated in the mid-2010s about the only can do it for Barca stuff… his late career Argentina play has been sensational and elevated him to another level. If he had never delivered for Argentina it may have stayed a level argument but that ended after 2022.

 

[Saffron]

Also that argument is quite outdated and originated in the mid-2010s about the only can do it for Barca stuff… his late career Argentina play has been sensational and elevated him to another level. If he had never delivered for Argentina it may have stayed a level argument but that ended after 2022.

The same year he dominated with Argentina was also the same year he was arguably the best player in a top 5 league. As a 35 year old.

So yeah, it's safe to say we can put that silly outdated argument to rest.

And by the way, against Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool, Messi has 27 games played, 21 goals and 6 assists.

 

[Gehrman]

Messi vs one of the greatest international sides ever back in 2010. Doesnt count of course because he´s playing against 70% of teammates rather than playing with them.

 

[Jay-Z Roc-A-Fellaini]

It’s a ridiculous argument though because of course Messi could play for Milwall, he’d be their best player by far and be signed by a better team within a year. Talent is talent.

Also I believe Messi would have scored 40+ in the Premier League that season he scored 50 in La Liga. Messi is a few steps above the players that scored 30+ in the PL. Ronaldo left before his peak and scored 31 in a season, if Ronaldo himself had stayed he may have pushed towards 40 goals, so would Suarez.

Also that argument is quite outdated and originated in the mid-2010s about the only can do it for Barca stuff… his late career Argentina play has been sensational and elevated him to another level. If he had never delivered for Argentina it may have stayed a level argument but that ended after 2022.

If Ronaldo played for Millwall then all Millwall would have to do is cross the ball to Ronaldo to head in. Ronaldo is so basic compared to Messi almost in comparison to Klose but Millwall would find it easier to play to Ronaldo's style than Messi's because Ronaldo is much more individualistic and is a simply a forward.

Messi went to PSG and instantly turned from a forward with a complete creative, dribbling, goalscoring ability to primarily playing just as a CAM creator because Messi had to adapt to PSG's tactics and players. Whilst he did score 18 goals in Ligue 1 in a farmers league, Ibrahimovic scored 38 so it was not exactly like he was replicating his Barcelona form in France either even after a year of experience when he flopped in his 1st season at PSG.

People compare the GOATs due to their strengths but not their weaknesses.
I think people say on YouTube that videos should show a goalkeepers mistakes more so than their best saves as this would be a better view on the players skills.

This is why I said Sergio Ramos vs Maldini in 90's Serie A could change how one of the players are viewed historically. Either Ramos ends up making too many mistakes as a defender who is not as good defensively or Maldini is looked down upon for not being as attacking as Ramos. However, just because Ramos turned in to a legend for Real Madrid doesn't mean I straight away assume he would be able to perform at the same level in 90's serie A for AC Milan. Yet people do it for Messi just having a sense of belief that because he did it in Barcelona that he could do it for any club in the world

To me Ronaldo has a huge mistake in his career because of his performances for Portugal & Messi simply could have had a better club career. Some people don't find it a big deal that Messi didn't play a top league outside of La Liga & just brush it away which is fine.

They assume just because Rafael Nadal was winning every tournament on a clay court that he would automatically be the best in the world playing in different courts. It's not how I view football or tennis but I'm just an individual with different opinions to others.

Brazilian Ronaldo for example did it in PSV, Inter Milan, Barcelona, Real Madrid & AC Milan. I really value his club career & also his International career - if he wasn't down with Injuries he would have been better than Messi, C Ronaldo, Maradona & Pele.

I've seen too many players have altered performances in different clubs in the same league never mind in different league just to give a player a free run. That doesn’t mean that they would flop, but their proficiency may drop by 10-20% which may hinder how they may be viewed.

Scholes is one of the best midfielders of all time with many Barcelona players saying he was the player that could play for them. Do you think the legend of Scholes accomplishing everything whilst only playing his full career for Manchester United is viewed better to the whole world than the version of Scholes that accomplishes everything whilst playing for both United & Barcelona?

I think the 2nd version of Scholes may be seen as slightly more valuable to the general demographic.

Anyway, I've spent all my daily posts on this haha. I don't want to come across as a Stan of Ronaldo, it's more because I dont keep La Liga only legends as high up on my pedestal as others. I for example value Modric more than Xavi or Iniesta because I got to see Modric flaunt his game in 2 very good teams & have less doubts about his adaptability.

@Hernandez - BFA

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

If Ronaldo played for Millwall then all Millwall would have to do is cross the ball to Ronaldo to head in. Ronaldo is so basic compared to Messi almost in comparison to Klose but Millwall would find it easier to play to Ronaldo's style than Messi's because Ronaldo is much more individualistic and is a simply a forward.

Messi went to PSG and instantly turned from a forward with a complete creative, dribbling, goalscoring ability to primarily playing just as a CAM creator because Messi had to adapt to PSG's tactics and players. Whilst he did score 18 goals in Ligue 1 in a farmers league, Ibrahimovic scored 38 so it was not exactly like he was replicating his Barcelona form in France either even after a year of experience when he flopped in his 1st season at PSG.

People compare the GOATs due to their strengths but not their weaknesses.
I think people say on YouTube that videos should show a goalkeepers mistakes more so than their best saves as this would be a better view on the players skills.

This is why I said Sergio Ramos vs Maldini in 90's Serie A could change how one of the players are viewed historically. Either Ramos ends up making too many mistakes as a defender who is not as good defensively or Maldini is looked down upon for not being as attacking as Ramos. However, just because Ramos turned in to a legend for Real Madrid doesn't mean I straight away assume he would be able to perform at the same level in 90's serie A for AC Milan. Yet people do it for Messi just having a sense of belief that because he did it in Barcelona that he could do it for any club in the world

To me Ronaldo has a huge mistake in his career because of his performances for Portugal & Messi simply could have had a better club career. Some people don't find it a big deal that Messi didn't play a top league outside of La Liga & just brush it away which is fine.

They assume just because Rafael Nadal was winning every tournament on a clay court that he would automatically be the best in the world playing in different courts. It's not how I view football or tennis but I'm just an individual with different opinions to others.

Brazilian Ronaldo for example did it in PSV, Inter Milan, Barcelona, Real Madrid & AC Milan. I really value his club career & also his International career - if he wasn't down with Injuries he would have been better than Messi, C Ronaldo, Maradona & Pele.

I've seen too many players have altered performances in different clubs in the same league never mind in different league just to give a player a free run.

Scholes is one of the best midfielders of all time with many Barcelona players saying he was the player that could play for them. Do you think the legend of Scholes accomplishing everything whilst only playing his career for Manchester United is viewed better to the whole world than the version of Scholes that accomplishes everything whilst playing for both United & Barcelona?

I think the 2nd version of Scholes may be seen as slightly more valuable to the general demographic.

Anyway, I've spent all my daily posts on this haha. I don't want to come across as a Stan of Ronaldo, it's more because I dont keep La Liga only legends as high up on my pedestal as others. I for example value Modric more than Xavi or Iniesta because I got to see Modric flaunt his game in 2 very good teams & have less doubts about his adaptability.

@Hernandez - BFA

If Messi played for Milwall, they wouldn't need to cross the ball, he'd score without it. Someone would have a tap-in because he beat three players and hit a perfect pass. They would be already winning the game because he scored a free-kick after he was hacked down. Managers aren't idiots, even Seán Dyche or Sam Allardyce are going to use creative players to their ability, the way the ball comes to them might be different but if Jay Jay Okocha, Diouf and Anelka can star for Big Sam for example, then Messi is going to be good too as he's far better than them.

I strongly disagree with the different clubs and leagues argument because if you're in a great team where you grew up, why would you go to a worse team or league just to challenge yourself? Nobody does this in any sport or work field. Also most of the best players of all-time played for the same club - Pele, Beckenbauer, Maldini, Baresi, Eusebio, Di Stefano etc. Anelka isn't better than Pele because he challenge himself in more leagues and more teams. Vidal isn't a better player than Xavi and Iniesta because he won the league in 3 major leagues. Doesn't work like that.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

The narrative that Messi couldn't do it in another league in his prime is silly, especially when the same people that say it blatantly ignore the fact that Ronaldo played for the biggest clubs in their leagues.

Man United under arguably the greatest manager of all time, Real Madrid that outspent every other team in La Liga and were the biggest club in the world when he joined, and Juventus who won the league 7 times in a row when he joined.