Lionel Messi | PSG Watch

cyberman

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Perhaps if you had not detached the statement you quoted from the context I had placed it in, you wouldn't be having this meltdown.

Many players such as David Silva who one would not think of as suitable to the physicality of the premier league have actually thrived in it. Messi would have likely done the same.

Can we say for sure? Of course not. But considering his talent and his repeated withstanding of the bullying in La Liga from the likes of Ramos, it's highly likely.

I had also made one other point. The premier league is a different league from what it was in the 2000-10 decade. Many teams play possession and pressing based systems. The physical aspect was once true but is now overstated.
I think the proof lies in how long he took to adapt to French football never mind the EPL back in its prime.
We can’t just downplay doing it in different leagues because it doesn’t suit the argument for one player
 

Ekeke

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If PSG dont win the champions league this season I think they will have dissappointed. Their team now reads like this generations Galacticos. They have players on the bench that would start for plenty of the big teams (Soler and Vitinha on the bench, Veratti and Ruiz starting), some of the best young and under 25 year old players around and they just continue to strengthen. But at some point they have to have the success...
 

KeanoMagicHat

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I think the proof lies in how long he took to adapt to French football never mind the EPL back in its prime.
We can’t just downplay doing it in different leagues because it doesn’t suit the argument for one player
I think not adapting to the PL is a nothing argument because of the lack of the world’s truly best players that have ever played in the Premier League. When they are actually one of the the best in the world, like Haaland, they do the same as any other league.

Nobody would say Suarez was better than Messi and he had the best season in PL history when he was there. For the sake of a Messi v Ronaldo argument, we have a direct comparison that we don’t have for Pele Maradona Cruyff or anyone else - La Liga from 2009 to 2018. La Liga was the strongest league, why would he need to go to a weaker league to prove he was the?
 

Pocho

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He humlliated every single engliah team he played against, so that argument is almost pathetic.
 

FrankFoot

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During Messi's prime La Liga was the best league, no reason to move to a weaker league like PL back then.

Imagine asking Haaland to move to current Serie A to prove that he is the best in the world or asking Paolo Maldini, in his prime, to move to weaker leagues than Serie A like PL or La Liga to prove his worth.

Cristiano will never be better than Messi, only United and Madrid fans think that, rest of fans say Messi is the best.
 

Niemans

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If PSG dont win the champions league this season I think they will have dissappointed. Their team now reads like this generations Galacticos. They have players on the bench that would start for plenty of the big teams (Soler and Vitinha on the bench, Veratti and Ruiz starting), some of the best young and under 25 year old players around and they just continue to strengthen. But at some point they have to have the success...
I don't think they have to be disappointed not to win the champions league. There are very good teams and a bad game sends you home.
Also having the top 3 players who press little is a very big handicap.
 

Flexdegea

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During Messi's prime La Liga was the best league, no reason to move to a weaker league like PL back then.

Imagine asking Haaland to move to current Serie A to prove that he is the best in the world or asking Paolo Maldini, in his prime, to move to weaker leagues than Serie A like PL or La Liga to prove his worth.

Cristiano will never be better than Messi, only United and Madrid fans think that, rest of fans say Messi is the best.

:lol: :lol: :lol:


They not even trying to hide it anymore
 

Grande

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I don't think they have to be disappointed not to win the champions league. There are very good teams and a bad game sends you home.
Also having the top 3 players who press little is a very big handicap.
Paying the equivlent of three teams for three players who press little, is a handicap the same way a wounded foot is after you’ve shot yourself in it.

The Quatari sheiks are probably disappointed they have not one CL trophy in so many years despite all their attempts to buy one.
 

Ekeke

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I don't think they have to be disappointed not to win the champions league. There are very good teams and a bad game sends you home.
Also having the top 3 players who press little is a very big handicap.
Then you shouldnt spend all that money making this team :houllier:

There are good teams and then theres a bunch of the most high profile players in the game for the past 5 years like PSG's team
 

Gehrman

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Pelé, Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, di Stefano, Puskas, etc. never played in the EPL either. Messi dominated La Liga in unprecedented fashion when it was the best league in the world by a landslide.



It's funny that fans of a certain player always try to move the discussion away from actual football. How well I adapt to culture, food or whatever has no influence on how good of a footballer I am.

Imagine being so biased that you rather rate footballers on how well their intestines digest the English cuisine instead of their actual ability.
Also I found it weird that Messi should have downgraded from Barcelona in his pomp to shut up the others guys fanboys. Its only after 2019 it made sense for him to leave and he tried to join City in 2020 but Barca refused to sell him and then there was all that stuff with his clause in the contract which he didn't trigger because of covid screwing up the fixtures.
 

Bole Top

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it's easy to see which posters never really bothered with La Liga when they pull the "physical EPL" argument. I've never seen EPL side playing as dirty and "physical" as Atletico in their prime, as well as Sevilla and Levante couple of years ago. if anything, top EPL clubs are too nice and mostly devoid of thugs like Pepe, Costa, Casemiro and Ramos.

and F. Torres example doesn't make sense at all. sure, he could have gotten bad injury and decline just as Torres did. what kind of argument is that? he could get such injury in any country, Spain or France, like plenty of players before him.
 

ilrm

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It's funny that fans of a certain player always try to move the discussion away from actual football. How well I adapt to culture, food or whatever has no influence on how good of a footballer I am.
If the discussion is about who is the best of the best of the best out of millions of footballers, then we need to nitpick everything. Its funny how fans of a certain player constantly change goalposts between statistics and style of play to suit their argument.
 

ilrm

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Perhaps if you had not detached the statement you quoted from the context I had placed it in, you wouldn't be having this meltdown.
No meltdown at my end ... the only tops exploding are those of Messi fans after he moved to a league whose Fifa coefficient is 40% less than England/Spain. To match Ronaldo, Messi should be making 30 assists and 25 goals every season.
 

Gehrman

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If the discussion is about who is the best of the best of the best out of millions of footballers, then we need to nitpick everything. Its funny how fans of a certain player constantly change goalposts between statistics and style of play to suit their argument.
Yeah I mean hypothetically since all of this is purely hypothetical could Messi adapt on a diet of fishing chips and pints?
 

ilrm

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Yeah I mean hypothetically since all of this is purely hypothetical could Messi adapt on a diet of fishing chips and pints?
Are fish & chips and beer a crucial part of football when you compare it to playing style, opposition quality, total number of matches, ground hardness and weather?
 

Axe2401

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If PSG dont win the champions league this season I think they will have dissappointed. Their team now reads like this generations Galacticos. They have players on the bench that would start for plenty of the big teams (Soler and Vitinha on the bench, Veratti and Ruiz starting), some of the best young and under 25 year old players around and they just continue to strengthen. But at some point they have to have the success...
Vitinha is the starter (awesome player by the way), and Ruiz is on the bench.
I don't know if it will be for this year. Last year they highly dominated Real Madrid 150 minutes over 180 despite Pochetinno. But this team can struggle at any time, probably a lack of defensive leaders. Ramos will be on the pitch this year, but i don't know if he can handle high level C1 games. However, the attack does great this season, Messi leading it as a playmaker, can be lethal on every defense, playing counters or builded attacks.
 

KeanoMagicHat

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No meltdown at my end ... the only tops exploding are those of Messi fans after he moved to a league whose Fifa coefficient is 40% less than England/Spain. To match Ronaldo, Messi should be making 30 assists and 25 goals every season.
That’s not really how teams work anyway, he’s got Mbappé and Neymar in the team, they share the goals. There’s more context to stats than just goals, there are always players who score plenty of goals for a bad team and there are those that can play well and their team to thrive.

Messi has an average rating of 8.95 this season, which is the best in Europe at 35. It doesn’t matter that he ‘only’ has 4 goals, he’s allowing Neymar and Mbappé to thrive. And he has 7 assists already so he could well get 20-30 assists anyway.

Meanwhile Ronaldo can barely get a start in the league because he takes away from his team when he starts, and averages 6.9 per match.
 

Gehrman

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Are fish & chips and beer a crucial part of football when you compare it to playing style, opposition quality, total number of matches, ground hardness and weather?
No but it's still fairly pointless to keep banging on about hypotheticals. Why on earth would Messi in his prime downgrade from Barca? Then you would have people saying he was running away from Ronnie as well. The biggest clubs in England were either shit post fergie when Messi was in his prime years and or plastic. He gave all his best years to one of the biggest and romantic clubs in the world. I don't think he regrets it.

Him and Ronnie shared a pitch tons of times and I do think Messi looked the better player most of the time.
 
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ilrm

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Messi has an average rating of 8.95 this season, which is the best in Europe at 35.
Imagine writing this without any 'smilies' or white text. Can't wait for Ronaldo to move to Sporting and then I can flood the forum about how he is 39 and averaging 8.5 in the league.
 

BusbyMalone

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Have Argentina got any real possibility of winning the World Cup? As someone who takes little interest in International football apart from major tournaments, I'm not sure what kind of shape they're in.

But it seems like Messi is getting back into some form, and it would be nice to see him have a good World Cup and possibly win it. Not that he has anything to prove, of course, but still.
 

ilrm

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Have Argentina got any real possibility of winning the World Cup? As someone who takes little interest in International football apart from major tournaments, I'm not sure what kind of shape they're in.
Most betting houses have them in their top-5/6 to win the tournament. Good attack, good midfield, good CB but average full backs and GK. Play a 4-2-2-2 with the attacking midfield composed of one attacking midfielder and one floating winger.
 

Rojow

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Imagine writing this without any 'smilies' or white text. Can't wait for Ronaldo to move to Sporting and then I can flood the forum about how he is 39 and averaging 8.5 in the league.
Messi get those ratings without scoring goals. You know how? Because he can create, dictate and pass the ball like the peak version of De Bruyne.
 

Acrobat7

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People who write that Messi hasn't proven himself in PL really make me wonder if they have ever seen him play or if the agenda is too strong. What a ridiculous statement.
People who question Messi since he hasn't proven himself in the PL really make me wonder if they have ever seen him play or if the agenda is too strong. What a ridiculous statement.

Edit because of @Gehrman 's pedantry
 
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Gehrman

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People who write that Messi hasn't proven himself in PL really make me wonder if they have ever seen him play or if the agenda is too strong. What a ridiculous statement.
Well factually he hasn't played in the pl.
 

BusbyMalone

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Most betting houses have them in their top-5/6 to win the tournament. Good attack, good midfield, good CB but average full backs and GK. Play a 4-2-2-2 with the attacking midfield composed of one attacking midfielder and one floating winger.
Good to hear. It will be nice having a good Argentina team to watch. I know they got to the final in 2014, but not sure how great that side was, really. It would be nice to see Messi have another go at it.
 

KeanoMagicHat

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Imagine writing this without any 'smilies' or white text. Can't wait for Ronaldo to move to Sporting and then I can flood the forum about how he is 39 and averaging 8.5 in the league.
He had the same stats in La Liga in his peak. Also Sporting don’t want Ronaldo because they want to be a team and would rather Marcus Edwards.
 

Zehner

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If the discussion is about who is the best of the best of the best out of millions of footballers, then we need to nitpick everything. Its funny how fans of a certain player constantly change goalposts between statistics and style of play to suit their argument.
Even if that was true both are far better arguments than "I'm not sure if Messi can tolerate Fish & Chips and English breakfast and lets be real, until we know he's not the GOAT footballer for me" :)
 

Ladron de redcafe

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Purely using Ronaldo as a measuring stick for Messi's accomplishments, since I can't use anyone else since statistically they're poorer performing than Ronaldo, it reads:

All Time Career Goals average
Messi - 104 minutes per goal
Ronaldo - 112 minutes per goal

All Time Career Per Goal Contribution
Messi - 72 minutes
Ronaldo - 88 minutes

Career Assists
Messi - 339
Ronaldo - 230

All Time League
Messi - 93 mins per goal, 65 mins per goal contribution
Ronaldo - 104 mins per goal, 81 mins per goal contribution

All Time Champions League
Messi - 104 mins per goal, 81 mins per goal contribution
Ronaldo - 115 mins per goal, 89 mins per goal contribution

All Time Domestic Cups
Messi - 118 mins per goal, 74 mins per goal contribution
Ronaldo - 147 mins per goal, 121 mins per goal contribution

All Time Internationals
Messi - 155 mins per goal, 99 mins per goal contribution
Ronaldo - 129 mins per goal, 101 mins per goal contribution

Career MOTM Awards
Messi - 303 (MOTM in 53% of games played in)
Ronaldo - 167 (MOTM in 30% of games played in)

Goals Outside Box
Messi - 81
Ronaldo - 61

Career Hattricks
Messi - 56 (Every 17.6 games)
Ronaldo - 60 (Every 18.8 games)

Career Key Passes
Messi - 1,304
Ronaldo - 889

Career Successful Dribbling
Messi - 3,007
Ronaldo - 1,642

Big Chances Created
Messi - 387
Ronaldo - 176

Accurate Throughballs
Messi - 423
Ronaldo - 81

Average Match Rating
Messi - 8.57
Ronaldo - 7.97

Goals without Penalties
Messi - 672
Ronaldo - 671

Goals and Assists in Finals
Messi - 47
Ronaldo - 22

That goal production in finals is just staggering :lol:

He now has the most non-penalty goals all time and he'll keep extending that mark.

His total goals + assists record is at 1113 and he can put that completely out of reach by the time he's done.
 

little.triangles

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No meltdown at my end ... the only tops exploding are those of Messi fans after he moved to a league whose Fifa coefficient is 40% less than England/Spain. To match Ronaldo, Messi should be making 30 assists and 25 goals every season.
Must be lovely to hold a conversation where you can simply ignore the points the other person has made and keep bleating about your hypothetical stats. Also, well done on bringing Ronaldo into it. I'll leave you to stew in your fanboy juices. I have no interest in debating who is better between these two all-time greats.
 

Red the Bear

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This has turned into another Messi v Ronaldo thread it seems(as expected), but to give my 2 cents about it it's obviously illogical to hold playing in la liga for most of his career against him seeing how it was unequivocally the best league around for the majority of his time there but you could argue that he never left his comfort zone and so lacks the adaptability compared to some other greats but even then why would he and its not like any other club whether it be juve in Italy or city in England wouldn't have cuddled him the same and besides some other greats did the same anyway , no one holds staying in Santos for most of his prime against pele for example.


All in all you might say it works against him in hypothetical comparisons with other greats like say Maradona or Ronaldo himself but it's a very weak argument in my opinion.
 

Dansk

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Purely using Ronaldo as a measuring stick for Messi's accomplishments, since I can't use anyone else since statistically they're poorer performing than Ronaldo, it reads:

All Time Career Goals average
Messi - 104 minutes per goal
Ronaldo - 112 minutes per goal

All Time Career Per Goal Contribution
Messi - 72 minutes
Ronaldo - 88 minutes

Career Assists
Messi - 339
Ronaldo - 230

All Time League
Messi - 93 mins per goal, 65 mins per goal contribution
Ronaldo - 104 mins per goal, 81 mins per goal contribution

All Time Champions League
Messi - 104 mins per goal, 81 mins per goal contribution
Ronaldo - 115 mins per goal, 89 mins per goal contribution

All Time Domestic Cups
Messi - 118 mins per goal, 74 mins per goal contribution
Ronaldo - 147 mins per goal, 121 mins per goal contribution

All Time Internationals
Messi - 155 mins per goal, 99 mins per goal contribution
Ronaldo - 129 mins per goal, 101 mins per goal contribution

Career MOTM Awards
Messi - 303 (MOTM in 53% of games played in)
Ronaldo - 167 (MOTM in 30% of games played in)

Goals Outside Box
Messi - 81
Ronaldo - 61

Career Hattricks
Messi - 56 (Every 17.6 games)
Ronaldo - 60 (Every 18.8 games)

Career Key Passes
Messi - 1,304
Ronaldo - 889

Career Successful Dribbling
Messi - 3,007
Ronaldo - 1,642

Big Chances Created
Messi - 387
Ronaldo - 176

Accurate Throughballs
Messi - 423
Ronaldo - 81

Average Match Rating
Messi - 8.57
Ronaldo - 7.97

Goals without Penalties
Messi - 672
Ronaldo - 671

Goals and Assists in Finals
Messi - 47
Ronaldo - 22
For statistics like these, it's necessary to take circumstances into account. Prior to last year, Messi played his entire career at the club that raised him from childhood and revolved wholly around him in every way, with generations of players who were signed and trained specifically to accommodate him. He also did so at a time when Barcelona had an unparalleled golden generation even if we don't take him into account. Meanwhile, Ronaldo has had to adapt first to the Premier League, then to La Liga at the age of 25, then to Serie A, and then back to the PL at 36. It's also a hell of a lot easier to create an impressive international record playing for Argentina than for Portugal. Outside of the World Cup, Argentina's only games in which they aren't favored are the ones against Brazil. The vast majority of their games are played against the likes of Ecuador and Bolivia. Portugal, on top their lesser footballing pedigree, have to compete against an infinitely tougher field of opponents in Europe.

If Ronaldo had come to Madrid as a child and was raised as a son of the club, with the whole team built entirely around him for every moment of his career, and stayed there for seventeen years instead of nine, it's likely that his accomplishments would have surpassed Messi. The fact that he's even close despite taking a much more challenging path says a lot. Instead he has had to prove himself at United, then go to Real Madrid at a time when their main competitor was the best team in the history of the sport, then go to Italy to play for a diminished Juventus side, and then back to the PL to play for a club that has been in freefall for a decade. For there to even be room to discuss whether he or Messi had the greater career, when Messi has had every conceivable wind in his back every single moment of his career, is nothing short of amazing. Imagine if Ronaldo's circumstances had favored him that much. There might not even have been any debate about which was the greater player.

If I run 25mph in a pair of Puma Bolt Evospeed Runners and you run 24mph in a pair of Converse high-tops, who's the better runner?
 
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Bebestation

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For statistics like these, it's necessary to take circumstances into account. Prior to last year, Messi played his entire career at the club that raised him from childhood and revolved wholly around him in every way, with generations of players who were signed and trained specifically to accommodate him. He also did so at a time when Barcelona had an unparalleled golden generation even if we don't take him into account. Meanwhile, Ronaldo has had to adapt first to the Premier League, then to La Liga at the age of 25, then to Serie A, and then back to the PL at 36. It's also a hell of a lot easier to create an impressive international record playing for Argentina than for Portugal. Outside of the World Cup, Argentina's only games in which they aren't favored are the ones against Brazil. The vast majority of their games are played against the likes of Ecuador and Bolivia. Portugal, on top their lesser footballing pedigree, have to compete against an infinitely tougher field of opponents in Europe.

If Ronaldo had come to Madrid as a child and was raised as a son of the club, with the whole team built entirely around him for every moment of his career, and stayed there for seventeen years instead of nine, it's likely that his accomplishments would have surpassed Messi. The fact that he's even close despite taking a much more challenging path says a lot. Instead he has had to prove himself at United, then go to Real Madrid at a time when their main competitor was the best team in the history of the sport, then go to Italy to play for a diminished Juventus side, and then back to the PL to play for a club that has been in freefall for a decade. For there to even be room to discuss whether he or Messi had the greater career, when Messi has had every conceivable wind in his back every single moment of his career, is nothing short of amazing. Imagine if Ronaldo's circumstances had favored him that much. There might not even have been any debate about which was the greater player.

If I run 25mph in a pair of Asics Gel-Nimbus and you run 24mph in a pair of Converse high-tops, who's the better runner?
This.

The one time Messi had to play outside of Barcelona he lost stats to Ronaldo.

It’s why I needed him to play in the PL - people already started making excuses of his decline last year in Ligue 1 straight after Balon Dor’ing it which has suddenly been put under the bed after he has returned to some form even at the age of 35.
 
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ilrm

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If Ronaldo had come to Madrid as a child and was raised as a son of the club,
You have put all this so beautifully … To add some examples: Perez tried for 2 years to sideline Ronaldo for Bale and Allegri tried to sideline Ronaldo for Dybala. Messi has never faced this and players like Zlatan have even been discarded to make sure Messi is happy. Common knowledge that Messi complained about his lack of understanding with Zlatan. Isn’t there a similar situation between Messi and a couple of good Argentinian strikers who didn’t play much because they didn’t fit with Messi?
 
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amolbhatia50k

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You have put all this so beautifully … To add some examples: Perez tried for 2 years to sideline Ronaldo for Bale and Allegri tried to sideline Ronaldo for Dybala. Messi has never faced this and players like Zlatan have even been discarded to make sure Messi is happy. Common knowledge that Messi complained about his lack of understanding with Zlatan. Isn’t there a similar situation between Messi and a couple of good Argentinian strikers who didn’t play much because they didn’t fit with Messi?
This thread has delved into expected comparison drivel but when you're that good, other players will have to adapt to you. Like Rooney and Benzema had to adapt for Ronaldo or many for Messi. It's the sign of incredible footballers that this concession or even changes to the squad need to be made, and success continues to come thereafter. It's not some negative against either really.

All this mindless rhetoric in this thread is amusing. These are all time greats. Barring unfortunate events like a leg break etc, Ronaldo wouldn't struggle if he was at Barcelona all his life and Messi wouldn't had he had Ronaldos club trajectory.
 

little.triangles

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This thread has delved into expected comparison drivel but when you're that good, other players will have to adapt to you. Like Rooney and Benzema had to adapt for Ronaldo or many for Messi. It's the sign of incredible footballers that this concession or even changes to the squad need to be made, and success continues to come thereafter. It's not some negative against either really.

All this mindless rhetoric in this thread is amusing. These are all time greats. Barring unfortunate events like a leg break etc, Ronaldo wouldn't struggle if he was at Barcelona all his life and Messi wouldn't had he had Ronaldos club trajectory.
Best not to feed a self-confessed troll:

 

Gehrman

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For statistics like these, it's necessary to take circumstances into account. Prior to last year, Messi played his entire career at the club that raised him from childhood and revolved wholly around him in every way, with generations of players who were signed and trained specifically to accommodate him. He also did so at a time when Barcelona had an unparalleled golden generation even if we don't take him into account. Meanwhile, Ronaldo has had to adapt first to the Premier League, then to La Liga at the age of 25, then to Serie A, and then back to the PL at 36. It's also a hell of a lot easier to create an impressive international record playing for Argentina than for Portugal. Outside of the World Cup, Argentina's only games in which they aren't favored are the ones against Brazil. The vast majority of their games are played against the likes of Ecuador and Bolivia. Portugal, on top their lesser footballing pedigree, have to compete against an infinitely tougher field of opponents in Europe.

If Ronaldo had come to Madrid as a child and was raised as a son of the club, with the whole team built entirely around him for every moment of his career, and stayed there for seventeen years instead of nine, it's likely that his accomplishments would have surpassed Messi. The fact that he's even close despite taking a much more challenging path says a lot. Instead he has had to prove himself at United, then go to Real Madrid at a time when their main competitor was the best team in the history of the sport, then go to Italy to play for a diminished Juventus side, and then back to the PL to play for a club that has been in freefall for a decade. For there to even be room to discuss whether he or Messi had the greater career, when Messi has had every conceivable wind in his back every single moment of his career, is nothing short of amazing. Imagine if Ronaldo's circumstances had favored him that much. There might not even have been any debate about which was the greater player.

If I run 25mph in a pair of Puma Bolt Evospeed Runners and you run 24mph in a pair of Converse high-tops, who's the better runner?
People really dance around the fact that Barca would never have sold him. That's why they never got any offers other than a 120 mil euro from inter when he was 18 and a 100 mil offer when he was 33. Barca would never have sold him in his prime years and I doubt anyone could even afford his transfer fee on top of his wages.
 
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DannyCAFC

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I'm wondering whether he's still potentially the best player in the world. Think based on last season it's easy to say Mbappe and some others might have overtaken him but he's looked great this season and can still do things that Mbappe can't.
 

Bebestation

Im a doctor btw, my IQ destroys yours
Joined
Oct 9, 2019
Messages
9,973
I'm wondering whether he's still potentially the best player in the world. Think based on last season it's easy to say Mbappe and some others might have overtaken him but he's looked great this season and can still do things that Mbappe can't.
Mbappe can do things Messi can’t like win a World Cup.

Messi regarded as best in the world by his fans when playing for Ligue 1 is why a lot of us wanted to see him in a more competitive league.
 
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