Lionel Messi | PSG Watch

yumtum

DUX' bumchum
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
6,610
Location
Wales
Don't want to get into this headache of a debate on who's better as it's a losing battle for either side.

But why is the goals excluding penalties even a thing? Should there be a stat excluding left footed goals? Seems a bit ridiculous to me.

These two are probably top 2 players of all time, it's crazy that they both came through at the same time, we need to marvel at the fact but everyone's too busy arguing who's better.

Messi the more naturally talented while Ronaldo worked on his insane talent to get the most of it, it's impressive that he started his career as a winger but evolved into the statistical beast that he currently his.

The player Messi is you wouldn't expect that sort of productivity either, both are just crazy players and we'll likely not see any player match them, including Haaland and Mbappe (longevity wise).
 

Cascarino

Magnum Poopus
Joined
Jul 17, 2014
Messages
6,032
Location
Wales
Supports
Swansea
Don't want to get into this headache of a debate on who's better as it's a losing battle for either side.

But why is the goals excluding penalties even a thing? Should there be a stat excluding left footed goals? Seems a bit ridiculous to me.
It's obvious isn't it? If player A has scored 20 goals with none coming from penalties, and player B has scored 20 goals all from open play, it's worth noting. If I gave you the same stat, but instead of penalties I told you how many goals came from a left footed effort, it's not worth noting.

People need to move away from the fixation on goals anyway but that opportunity has long gone.
 

little.triangles

New Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2022
Messages
306

mshnsh

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
492
Location
old trafford
I think the proof lies in how long he took to adapt to French football never mind the EPL back in its prime.
We can’t just downplay doing it in different leagues because it doesn’t suit the argument for one player
There were a number of factors involved not least that he had stayed at Barcelona for his life and had to move to a new club and city at 34 which in footballing terms is old and definitely past his prime. In addition, he did not have preaseason, had niggling injuries and frequent interruptions due to international breaks.

But anyway he has started this season well and has managed to shine despite playing with a selfish egomaniac.
Mbappe can do things Messi can’t like win a World Cup.

Messi regarded as best in the world by his fans when playing for Ligue 1 is why a lot of us wanted to see him in a more competitive league.
You are just a hater making excuses after excuses to put him down.
For statistics like these, it's necessary to take circumstances into account. Prior to last year, Messi played his entire career at the club that raised him from childhood and revolved wholly around him in every way, with generations of players who were signed and trained specifically to accommodate him. He also did so at a time when Barcelona had an unparalleled golden generation even if we don't take him into account. Meanwhile, Ronaldo has had to adapt first to the Premier League, then to La Liga at the age of 25, then to Serie A, and then back to the PL at 36. It's also a hell of a lot easier to create an impressive international record playing for Argentina than for Portugal. Outside of the World Cup, Argentina's only games in which they aren't favored are the ones against Brazil. The vast majority of their games are played against the likes of Ecuador and Bolivia. Portugal, on top their lesser footballing pedigree, have to compete against an infinitely tougher field of opponents in Europe.

If Ronaldo had come to Madrid as a child and was raised as a son of the club, with the whole team built entirely around him for every moment of his career, and stayed there for seventeen years instead of nine, it's likely that his accomplishments would have surpassed Messi. The fact that he's even close despite taking a much more challenging path says a lot. Instead he has had to prove himself at United, then go to Real Madrid at a time when their main competitor was the best team in the history of the sport, then go to Italy to play for a diminished Juventus side, and then back to the PL to play for a club that has been in freefall for a decade. For there to even be room to discuss whether he or Messi had the greater career, when Messi has had every conceivable wind in his back every single moment of his career, is nothing short of amazing. Imagine if Ronaldo's circumstances had favored him that much. There might not even have been any debate about which was the greater player.

If I run 25mph in a pair of Puma Bolt Evospeed Runners and you run 24mph in a pair of Converse high-tops, who's the better runner?
Firstly, you are completely underestimating the "midtable teams" in South America.

Secondly, the only reason why Ronaldo is compared to Messi is goal stats. That’s it. If you actually watched them through their careers with an unbiased opinion, it is obvious who the better footballer is.
 

Bebestation

Im a doctor btw, my IQ destroys yours
Joined
Oct 9, 2019
Messages
9,973
There were a number of factors involved not least that he had stayed at Barcelona for his life and had to move to a new club and city at 34 which in footballing terms is old and definitely past his prime. In addition, he did not have preaseason, had niggling injuries and frequent interruptions due to international breaks.

But anyway he has started this season well and has managed to shine despite playing with a selfish egomaniac.

You are just a hater making excuses after excuses to put him down.

Firstly, you are completely underestimating the "midtable teams" in South America.

Secondly, the only reason why Ronaldo is compared to Messi is goal stats. That’s it. If you actually watched them through their careers with an unbiased opinion, it is obvious who the better footballer is.
And again Messi would 100% not be the same player outside of Barcelona and La Liga.

It’s just too much of an asset.

Even for SAF Messi would still be one of the best ever - but he wouldn’t be the best ever.

:drool:

Barcelona is too much of a philosophical club.

He should have won more than one copa america for a player of his talent.
 

Acrobat7

Full Member
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
3,754
Supports
Bayern Munich
While playing for Barca and not playing for an English team. Messi is always going to be considered a system based player. If I was coaching Barca/City I’d pick Messi but if I was coaching Sunderland/Nantes/Fiorentina I’d pick Ronaldo. Infact Ronaldo would be a success in every team in the league.
By you and probably a small minority. However, these opinions do not make it a consensus or fact.
 

Zehner

Full Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
5,726
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
While playing for Barca and not playing for an English team. Messi is always going to be considered a system based player. If I was coaching Barca/City I’d pick Messi but if I was coaching Sunderland/Nantes/Fiorentina I’d pick Ronaldo. Infact Ronaldo would be a success in every team in the league.
If you were a coach, you wouldn't pick Ronaldo. When one's job depends on it, people tend to cast biases aside :)

Also, being a coach would imply a better deeper understanding of football. Another argument why you'd pick Messi.
 

antk

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Messages
276
By you and probably a small minority. However, these opinions do not make it a consensus or fact.
If you were a coach, you wouldn't pick Ronaldo. When one's job depends on it, people tend to cast biases aside :)

Also, being a coach would imply a better deeper understanding of football. Another argument why you'd pick Messi.
Why are you responding to trolls
 

yumtum

DUX' bumchum
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
6,610
Location
Wales
It's obvious isn't it? If player A has scored 20 goals with none coming from penalties, and player B has scored 20 goals all from open play, it's worth noting. If I gave you the same stat, but instead of penalties I told you how many goals came from a left footed effort, it's not worth noting.

People need to move away from the fixation on goals anyway but that opportunity has long gone.
Why is it worth noting? I'm not a huge fan of stats either simply for the fact you can manipulate them like saying Messi has scored more than Ronaldo*

*penalties excluded.

Like penalties are worth less for some reason - should we start saying Carvalho wasn't as good as Cahill for Chelsea because Makalele was playing DM during his his time there?
 

Bebestation

Im a doctor btw, my IQ destroys yours
Joined
Oct 9, 2019
Messages
9,973
If you were a coach, you wouldn't pick Ronaldo. When one's job depends on it, people tend to cast biases aside :)

Also, being a coach would imply a better deeper understanding of football. Another argument why you'd pick Messi.
A coach in the PL wouldn’t pick Messi over Ronaldo because one could simply flop as there is 100% no proof it could work.

Imagine Messi playing under Jose Mourinho or Ole as a United player!

And people think he would have a 92 goal season under such circumstances.

Delusion on something that never happened.
 

Zehner

Full Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
5,726
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
Why is it worth noting? I'm not a huge fan of stats either simply for the fact you can manipulate them like saying Messi has scored more than Ronaldo*

*penalties excluded.

Like penalties are worth less for some reason - should we start saying Carvalho wasn't as good as Cahill for Chelsea because Makalele was playing DM during his his time there?
Penalties are worth less
 

Andrade

Full Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
Messages
735
While playing for Barca and not playing for an English team. Messi is always going to be considered a system based player. If I was coaching Barca/City I’d pick Messi but if I was coaching Sunderland/Nantes/Fiorentina I’d pick Ronaldo. Infact Ronaldo would be a success in every team in the league.
Maybe by people who don't know anything about football, yes.
 

FrankFoot

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 5, 2022
Messages
170
Supports
Neutral
Messi is the better player, only in Portugal, Madrid and Manchester people believe Ronaldo is better.

The rest, who don't have a bias supporting United and Real Madrid, recognize Messi as the better player.

Goals is the only item where Ronaldo can be compared to Messi.
 

Andrade

Full Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
Messages
735
Don't want to get into this headache of a debate on who's better as it's a losing battle for either side.

But why is the goals excluding penalties even a thing? Should there be a stat excluding left footed goals? Seems a bit ridiculous to me.

These two are probably top 2 players of all time, it's crazy that they both came through at the same time, we need to marvel at the fact but everyone's too busy arguing who's better.

Messi the more naturally talented while Ronaldo worked on his insane talent to get the most of it, it's impressive that he started his career as a winger but evolved into the statistical beast that he currently his.

The player Messi is you wouldn't expect that sort of productivity either, both are just crazy players and we'll likely not see any player match them, including Haaland and Mbappe (longevity wise).
In my opinion, this is why Ronaldo can never be the GOAT and that title belongs to either Messi, Maradona or Pele. No one who is lacking in the highest level of genius natural talent should be considered, no matter how hard they worked.

That genius is not sufficient, but it is absolutely necessary.
 

Cascarino

Magnum Poopus
Joined
Jul 17, 2014
Messages
6,032
Location
Wales
Supports
Swansea
Why is it worth noting? I'm not a huge fan of stats either simply for the fact you can manipulate them like saying Messi has scored more than Ronaldo* Like penalties are worth less for some reason -

*penalties excluded.
Just because a penalty comes with a high probability of scoring. If we’re looking solely through the prism of goals scored, what is more impressive to you, a player scoring 25 from open play or a player scoring 25 all from the spot? If it’s the former, then at some level you are making a distinction between penalty goals and non penalty goals.

It’s not something I’d use in the example you’ve outlined regarding Messi and Ronaldo, but in general it’s always worth knowing. Same when it comes to something like chance creation for example, a player could have a much higher one than a peer solely because they take corners for their team and the other does not. Like taking penalties, taking corners is a skill and isn’t something you can discount, but it’s also pretty circumstantial and it’s always worth noting when evaluating these numbers.

should we start saying Carvalho wasn't as good as Cahill for Chelsea because Makalele was playing DM during his his time there?
Slightly different kettle of fish, but in a way we already do this. Maradona’s ‘86 performance is (in part) held in such high esteem because of the quality of his teammates.

Of course this kind of thinking doesn’t apply the hypothetical you put forward, but rightly or wrongly the players a player plays with play a role when it comes to how we assess them.
 

yumtum

DUX' bumchum
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
6,610
Location
Wales
Just because a penalty comes with a high probability of scoring. If we’re looking solely through the prism of goals scored, what is more impressive to you, a player scoring 25 from open play or a player scoring 25 all from the spot? If it’s the former, then at some level you are making a distinction between penalty goals and non penalty goals.

It’s not something I’d use in the example you’ve outlined regarding Messi and Ronaldo, but in general it’s always worth knowing. Same when it comes to something like chance creation for example, a player could have a much higher one than a peer solely because they take corners for their team and the other does not. Like taking penalties, taking corners is a skill and isn’t something you can discount, but it’s also pretty circumstantial and it’s always worth noting when evaluating these numbers.



Slightly different kettle of fish, but in a way we already do this. Maradona’s ‘86 performance is (in part) held in such high esteem because of the quality of his teammates.

Of course this kind of thinking doesn’t apply the hypothetical you put forward, but rightly or wrongly the players a player plays with play a role when it comes to how we assess them.
I do see what you're getting at, but it just reeks of people skewing stats to meet their agenda, it will just create an endless loop and the reason we get this mindless debate on who's better etc.

Your question is also loaded, it would be impossible to see that scenario happen where a player scores 25 penalties in one season, a better question would be if the top scorers in a league season were on 28 and 26 goals, would you think the top scorer should go to the player with fewer goals because the player with 28 goals scored 3 penalties?

Put it this way, 13.30% of Messi's goals have come from pens, Ronaldo's is 17.77% - hardly an outlier that needs to have stats skewed to prove who's the better goal scorer.

My point with this, is that if you want to use goals scored to prove who's better then wait until Messi has actually scored more, there are many legitimate points where you can confidently say Messi is better without having to fudge stats.
 

Cascarino

Magnum Poopus
Joined
Jul 17, 2014
Messages
6,032
Location
Wales
Supports
Swansea
I do see what you're getting at, but it just reeks of people skewing stats to meet their agenda, it will just create an endless loop and the reason we get this mindless debate on who's better etc.

Your question is also loaded, it would be impossible to see that scenario happen where a player scores 25 penalties in one season, a better question would be if the top scorers in a league season were on 28 and 26 goals, would you think the top scorer should go to the player with fewer goals because the player with 28 goals scored 3 penalties?

Put it this way, 13.30% of Messi's goals have come from pens, Ronaldo's is 17.77% - hardly an outlier that needs to have stats skewed to prove who's the better goal scorer.

My point with this, is that if you want to use goals scored to prove who's better then wait until Messi has actually scored more, there are many legitimate points where you can confidently say Messi is better without having to fudge stats.
Yeah when it comes to players who have generally been the primary penalty taker in successful teams it’s not something I’d bother breaking down either. Useful in certain situations but I agree it’s not one I’d bother with when it comes to Messi and Ronaldo comparisons
 

Gehrman

Phallic connoisseur, unlike shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
8,164
I do see what you're getting at, but it just reeks of people skewing stats to meet their agenda, it will just create an endless loop and the reason we get this mindless debate on who's better etc.

Your question is also loaded, it would be impossible to see that scenario happen where a player scores 25 penalties in one season, a better question would be if the top scorers in a league season were on 28 and 26 goals, would you think the top scorer should go to the player with fewer goals because the player with 28 goals scored 3 penalties?

Put it this way, 13.30% of Messi's goals have come from pens, Ronaldo's is 17.77% - hardly an outlier that needs to have stats skewed to prove who's the better goal scorer.

My point with this, is that if you want to use goals scored to prove who's better then wait until Messi has actually scored more, there are many legitimate points where you can confidently say Messi is better without having to fudge stats.
Messi is around 35 goals behind with around 10000 less minutes played. With this volume of goals, the small difference in total goals doesn't really matter much at the end of the day for me. I consider Gerd Muller as good a goalscorer as any because of his goals to game ratio in all competitions even though his total goals trails Pelé, Ronnie and Messi. Same with someone like Puskas.
 

The holy trinity 68

The disparager
Joined
Apr 10, 2016
Messages
4,904
Location
Manchester
While playing for Barca and not playing for an English team. Messi is always going to be considered a system based player. If I was coaching Barca/City I’d pick Messi but if I was coaching Sunderland/Nantes/Fiorentina I’d pick Ronaldo. Infact Ronaldo would be a success in every team in the league.
This is just ridiculous and hypothetical based on your opinion. There is no way to prove which would be more successful in any team in the league.

Prime Messi would look incredible in any team. You're basing your opinion on 34 year old Messi last season. He has been unplayable so far this season and is no where near his prime anymore.

Imagine thinking Messi would struggle in the PL. By the way, you're acting like Ronaldo hasn't played for Man United, Real Madrid and Juventus. Put Messi on them teams and he would still be the best player.
 

Gehrman

Phallic connoisseur, unlike shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
8,164
This is just ridiculous and hypothetical based on your opinion. There is no way to prove which would be more successful in any team in the league.

Prime Messi would look incredible in any team. You're basing your opinion on 34 year old Messi last season.

He has been unplayable so far this season and is no where near his prime anymore.

Imagine thinking Messi would struggle in the PL.
It's almost as if Ronnie hasn't played for the biggest team in Britain, Spain and Italy. I can definitely remember him looking like the best player in the world for Sunderland and Milwall.
 

Bebestation

Im a doctor btw, my IQ destroys yours
Joined
Oct 9, 2019
Messages
9,973
Hazard absolute legend at Chelsea - a flop at Real Madrid.

Playing for 2 top clubs doesn’t guarantee success.
 

amolbhatia50k

Sneaky bum time - Vaccination status: dozed off
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
87,549
Location
india
Hazard absolute legend at Chelsea - a flop at Real Madrid.

Playing for 2 top clubs doesn’t guarantee success.
Messi is in a different stratosphere to Hazard. There are no guarantees in life for a anhthing. But Messi moving to England at 25 and succeeding there is as sure a thing as it gets.
 

Gehrman

Phallic connoisseur, unlike shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
8,164
Messi is in a different stratosphere to Hazard. There are no guarantees in life for a anhthing. But Messi moving to England at 25 and succeeding there is as sure a thing as it gets.
Also Hazard move to Real has been marred by injuries and fitness problems. But comparing Hazard to Messi as you say is 2 players in a different stratosphere.
 

Bole Top

Full Member
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
2,759
if Hazard got fat and injury prone while still at Chelsea, no one would say a thing. but if player becomes fat and injury prone at different club = he can't adapt. he didn't fail because he isn't good enough for La Liga, but because Real got his washed up version. same with Kaka. it's like saying Schweini wasn't good enough for EPL just because we bought him at his worst, but the thing is, 2017 Schweinsteiger also wouldn't be good enough for Bayern. he wasn't bad because he was playing in another league, he was bad because he was closer to retirement than to his peak. just like most players after they turn 30/31/32. it's so simplistic to put everything down to adaptation skills in that age, as it can really be just a simple, natural decline.
 

Gehrman

Phallic connoisseur, unlike shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
8,164
if Hazard got fat and injury prone while still at Chelsea, no one would say a thing. but if player becomes fat and injury prone at different club = he can't adapt. he didn't fail because he isn't good enough for La Liga, but because Real got his washed up version. same with Kaka. it's like saying Schweini wasn't good enough for EPL just because we bought him at his worst, but the thing is, 2017 Schweinsteiger also wouldn't be good enough for Bayern. he wasn't bad because he was playing in another league, he was bad because he was closer to retirement than to his peak. just like most players after they turn 30/31/32. it's so simplistic to put everything down to adaptation skills in that age, as it can really be just a simple, natural decline.
I can remember Bebestation being completely flappergasted at Ronaldinho looking a different player at Barca and how he looked at Milan. What a conundrum. Wonder if there is some sort of context.
 

IFC 1905

Full Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2014
Messages
1,909
Location
Buenos Aires, ARG
Messi is in a different stratosphere to Hazard. There are no guarantees in life for a anhthing. But Messi moving to England at 25 and succeeding there is as sure a thing as it gets.

Exactly. Imagine David Silva being a City legend but Messi not being able to adapt to EPL at 25. :lol:
 

ilrm

Full Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2022
Messages
568
Supports
Real Madrid
You have been shown up to be the troll you are:


I wouldn't be complacent about your membership if I were you. I am a new member but I have hung around the forum for a decade and the likes of you have disappeared in the middle of the night. Just saying.
I wrote that as a joke … I don’t consider my membership as a badge of honor even though I enjoy posting.
 

That_Bloke

Full Member
Joined
May 28, 2019
Messages
529
Location
Cologne
Supports
Leicester City
Mods could you please re-open the Messi vs Ronaldo thread? Tired of the cultists from both sides. Give them the space to bore each other to death with pointless stats without derailing other threads.

Oh and Messi > Ronaldo.
 

mshnsh

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
492
Location
old trafford
And again Messi would 100% not be the same player outside of Barcelona and La Liga.

It’s just too much of an asset.

Even for SAF Messi would still be one of the best ever - but he wouldn’t be the best ever.

:drool:

Barcelona is too much of a philosophical club.

He should have won more than one copa america for a player of his talent.
You just said "a player of his talent" I think and hope you acknowledge that the player has God given talent that no one in his generation has and very very few if any in the history of football have ever had. So what makes you think that Messi at his peak wouldn't absolutely dominate the premier league when much Inferior players of similar stature and style like Zola, Aguero, and David Silva have done so well?
 

KeanoMagicHat

Full Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,959
While playing for Barca and not playing for an English team. Messi is always going to be considered a system based player. If I was coaching Barca/City I’d pick Messi but if I was coaching Sunderland/Nantes/Fiorentina I’d pick Ronaldo. Infact Ronaldo would be a success in every team in the league.
Peak Messi at somewhere like Sunderland makes them a completely different proposition and automatically makes them European contenders and a completely different style of outfit altogether. It’s a stupid hypothetical argument but if they were suddenly gifted Messi, no manager would be stupid enough not too constantly feed a player who is several levels above the next player. Even Big Sam let Okocha play and he was half the player Messi is.

It’s crazy to not think Messi would be a success for any team in the league also.
 

V.O.

Last Man Standing finalist 2019/20
Joined
Jan 12, 2019
Messages
4,243
Aaron Lennon was a lovely player and I often make ridiculous statements but saying he is better than Messi is one of the worst opinions one could ever have.
Jacob wasn’t alone though, the spurs coach back then ( can’t remember his name) compared him with Cristiano Ronaldo as well
:nono:

Take it to the Messi vs. Lennon thread.
 

jeff_goldblum

Full Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
3,576
My feeling is that Messi would have been quite clearly the best player in the world regardless of where he spent his career (within reason). But he wouldn't have won as much or scored/assisted as many goals as he did at Barcelona.
 

Gehrman

Phallic connoisseur, unlike shamans
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
8,164
Quality goal vs Honduras even if it was just Honduras.

 
Last edited:

Andrade

Full Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2022
Messages
735
A coach in the PL wouldn’t pick Messi over Ronaldo because one could simply flop as there is 100% no proof it could work.

Imagine Messi playing under Jose Mourinho or Ole as a United player!

And people think he would have a 92 goal season under such circumstances.

Delusion on something that never happened.
You really don't know anything about football, I'm sorry to say.
 

SportingCP96

Full Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2014
Messages
9,079
Supports
Sporting Clube de Portugal
Nice goal. He has been fantastic this season and it’s good to see him performing for Argentina when that wasn’t always the case in yester year.

I think this World Cup Will be his best ever shot at it. He’s in top form and has a great side who all work well together.

Good luck.
 
X