IMO Argentina won’t win the World Cup even though I’d like to see Messi win it. Messi could have a bad match and that’s all it takes in KO tournaments. And if no one steps up it’s Bye Bye Argentina.
Brazil and Spain are the two clear favourites IMO.
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Brazil and Spain are the two clear favourites IMO.
Pretty sure 2014 was his best shot. There are simply better teams and I doubt a 35 year old Messi is suddenly going to have that iconic world cup that's he's been missing. Team might be solid, but it lacks quality and I can't imagine a 35 year old Messi taking them all the way.
it’s impossible that Messi would have played in a low quality team. Top players end up playing in top teams always. We’re not in the 80’s anymore
This is a question with only one logical answer. The issue is people thinking that the Premier League is impossibly tough. It really is not.
Which player that isn’t Portuguese Ronaldo has been called a GOAT but actually played in the PL before?
I just can’t remember much.
Then GOAT’s that have played in La Liga - Messi, Brazilian Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Maradona (even though it wasn’t great), Iniesta, Cryuff - the list goes on and on.
That just says a lot.
George Best and Charlton are the only players that I remember being called GOAT level and that was so far back.
I just can’t remember much.
Then GOAT’s that have played in La Liga - Messi, Brazilian Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Maradona (even though it wasn’t great), Iniesta, Cryuff - the list goes on and on.
That just says a lot.
George Best and Charlton are the only players that I remember being called GOAT level and that was so far back.
only his fans call him Goat, the rest call him great goal scorer and great player.
Goat is for Maradona, Messi, Pelé and Di Stefano in no particular order.
I know it's difficult for you but this is a Leo Messi thread. Keep your fanboyism for your boy for his thread.
As far as the GOAT argument goes, the general consensus is that Messi, Maradona, and Pelé are the 3 greatest and none of them played in England (not sure why that's relevant, anyways).
Back on topic. 673 non-penalty goals now for Messi who extends his all time record as well as his goals+assists cumulative record.
I don't know. Many top players played second fiddle to another star after joining a top team or after their team signed someone even better. Henry, Ballack, Ibrahimovic, Griezmann, Kaka, Figo, Rooney, Dybala, just to name a few. It's a quality in itself to always be considered the best player on the pitch, regardless of who you're playing with.
I might be missing something but what does that say? It's just a bunch of fantastic players who have played for the 2 most dominant teams in Spanish football?
For me (if I was agenda driven) your statement could be interpreted (due to the fact that most of the best players in recent history have played there) as La Liga is the true barometer of footballing "greatness" and the Premier League/Bundesliga/ Seria A aren't as relevant in measuring performance (I don't feel that way) but I'm pretty sure you don't rate Messi because he hasn't done it on a cold Tuesday night in Stoke.
He's performed well for Argentina the entire time except for right at the start. Actually, even at the start, coming off the youth performances he was good. The main struggle bit I remember is when Maradona was the coach. Since then he's been elite, for the best part of 10 years.
He was exceptional there, just struggled with a major injury and illness.
I'm not sure what your overall point is here but it seems like it's going to be a very ill-informed one, with all due respect.
The question I was responding too wasn't really about that. Of course Messi would have less goals and assists playing for Levante or Norwich.
I know, I was just responding to the posters hypothetical.
Its what I take away as well. Also the first division of the past was not an attractive league for great players who were foreigners.
Henry was in his twilight years when he joined Barca. Kaka was on the decline with injury problems when he joined real. Ibra wasn't suited to playing wide when Messi was the best goal scorer ever playing false nr 9. Figo was mint at Madrid, the greatest of his generation was just part of Madrid with his stint there. Dybala has never reached amazing heights at any time.
Yes, obviously. That's why I find it stupid to compare Messi's or Cristiano's goal records to, say, R9, Maradona or Pelé. The distribution of top players these days is much more concentrated on elite teams than earlier which obviously leads to a "goal inflation".
There are countless cases like this. You could even argue Iniesta, Xavi, David Villa, Alexis Sanchez, Benzema, Modric, Suarez, Neymar, etc. It speaks volumes if a player played alongside so many superstars and it was never even disputed if they were better than him at any point in time. Cristiano fans always point out that Messi played alongside so many elite players and Messi fans respond likewise when in all actuality, that's nothing to criticize them for but an incredibly impressive feat in itself.
I think while this is true, Pelé played in a top Santos team and Brazil team. R9 before his injuries didn't play for top top sides(apart from Brazil), but did play for Madrid in their Galatico era. Maradona put up impressive numbers as a nr. 10 or 2nd striker considering he was playing for a not all that good Barcelona and Napoli. There is also stuff like goal inflation and the players role in the team. Cryuff's pomp was still at Ajax, but he's still regarded as a Barcelona legend without having a incredible goals record. Because fans who understand the game knows that it's not neccesarily the person who receives the final ball who's the best player in the team
Yes, altogether far too many variables to compare based on statistics
In the end, by definition goals are just the last touch before the goal passes the goal line anyway. I think we should rate players rather on how decisive and difficult their plays are, regardless of where they happen in the sequence that lead to a goal (or prevent it).I know it is just Honduras but that chip goal was a thing of beauty
It’s why I believe the La Liga is the league that highlights flair or technique the most out of a player. It’s why I call Messi the most technical gifted player in the world.
However, the Premier League is different. This is shown the most easiest way when Ronaldo gave up all his step overs and skill to become a player more of power and headers rather than a player who was trying to take his man on.
I believe he did this because the PL isn’t a league that amplified a players technical ability and stuff like dribbling ability in comparison to the La Liga.
If Ronaldo spent all his career in the La Liga and only the la Liga - I’m 100% sure we would not be seeing this version of Ronaldo we have seen through his career. There would not be the need for things like power and headers. We would have seen a more skillful and technical version of Ronaldo if he was a La Liga player especially in the early days where he was finding what player he is before reaching his prime.
Would Messi be the same version of him if we saw him in the Premier League all his career? His fans will say yes but I personally feel that we would see a different version of himself to become the PL version of Messi.
Enjoy him whilst he is here mate. I’m hoping Messi wins the World Cup this year so he can put my significant doubts away for good and finally be the GOAT even his own country believes in because it isn’t really the case right now.
Ronaldo rightly gave up his stepovers and skill tricks because they mostly didn't work to beat a man. I think you are forgetting players from Man Utd alone. Giggs and Best. They didn't have to give up flair to become better players. Did Ronaldo not score headers in La Liga? How does headers make you less technical? There is also stuff like eras. It's a very recent thing in the era of football to consider the top league in England to be the best in the world.
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My goodness, this is such nonsense. I really don't want to be disrespectful but you seem to have no idea what you're talking about.
If he really is a doctor, God save us all.
Yeah I could understand that line of thinking but as far as I know Messi didnt do a bunch of tricks and step overs in Spain either to beat opposition players?
So it's not like he couldn't use his abilities (body feints, pace, ball control and balance) to evade opposition defenders in the Premier League? We've seen worse players who share similar traits ( Hazard? Silva? Mata? ) excel in England? Why wouldn't he perform in the same way he has done against all English opposition in the Champions League?
Ronaldo just had different abilities (Power, heading ability/ anticipation, leap etc) that he maximized over the course of his career.
I don't think he would purposely avoid maximizing a certain trait just because he didn't have the opportunity to play Crystal Palace.
There he is scoring (@0:22) a pretty trademark Ronaldo header from a corner before he even signed for United.
He just refined his play until he became the best version of himself.
Messi won't be regarded as the GOAT by a lot of Argentinians no matter what he does on the football pitch vs Maradona.
That's just the way things are, it's a cultural/ social phenomenon.
Maradona is literally a god to some people here and they won't feel represented in the same way by Messi.
This is what is a bit stupid for me. Maradona played in Europe for 11 years and won a grand total of 2 league titles. People always bang on about dragging Napoli to the league title twice, which, granted was when he truly hit his prime, but he only won the league twice in 8 years at Napoli.
Then he dragged Argentina to a WC win.
Baring in mind Argentina did have a very good team, he wasn't playing with plumbers. Napoli had a lot of money and also a very good squad.
So people say Maradona is the better player than Messi for what he won in 2 years and 2 months of football. Messi has had a far longer prime than Maradona and use the barometer of a tournament won over 7 games as the reason for Maradona being better.
Imagine choosing a player as better because of 7 games, when Messi has played 957 games and counting in his career, racking up 769 goals and 331 assists.
I don't even think it should be up for debate that Messi is the greater player and the better player, longevity wise and prime wise. People are really sleeping on Messi to pick Maradona over him. One international tournament win does not exceed what Messi has done in the last 15 years. It is quite frankly ridiculous.
Also Maradona was Seria A topscorer once with 15 goals which is one of the lowest of several eras. Platini won Seria A topscorer 3 thrice in a row with higher numbers playing in a similar role, granted in a stronger team. Of course Maradona was always about much more than goals, but still.
It's not an apples to apples comparison in terms of the eras, football was very different in the 80s. Did you see Maradona play? Anyone who has would recognise that it is not at all a controversial opinion to favour him over Messi. I go back and forth myself over who is better (an impossible question really), but it's definitely a debate either way.
A hell of a lot of it is due to the individual ( Maradona playing in the domestic league before heading to Barca/ being more "relatable" to the masses etc) as well as the emotional moments they inspired (Maradonas performance vs England was just a few years after the Falklands/ Malvinas war).
Not to mention the differences socially / politically etc in Argentina (the years after the Malvinas/ Falklands and the the fall of the military junta) at the time which can't be replicated today.
This is very interesting to me. As an outsider looking in, a lot of the difference seems to be circumstantial and extraneous to football. Maradona is (or was) a much more visibly flawed person, which often makes people love you more (cf Garrincha v Pele). Maradona's image is that of a rebel; against imperialist Britain, against prejudiced Northern Italy etc. etc., Messi's manifestly is not. Also Maradona's personality is tempestuous and emotional, Messi is a much more composed and laconic figure.
This is even reflected in the way they play; Maradona had a much zanier style whereas Messi was schooled rigorously at La Masia. They're both geniuses but possess very different kinds of genius. Add in of course the extreme poverty that Maradona emerged from, and you have a ready made folk hero.
Thing is though, it's not just about what Argentines think, it's about what the world thinks. And in that arena, it's a much more even contest.
Yup that's pretty much exactly it.
There has been a recent flurry of support for the national team (and Messi in particular) not also because they are performing well (and have a brilliant team harmony and unity) but also because their is the realization that this is the "Last Dance" for Messi at the World Cup.
I also think Maradonas death refocused some of the detractors away from making unnecessary comparisons between the two and instead towards appreciating the fleeting time that Messi has left at the top of the game.
I forgot to add this.
Yes you are exactly right here too.
It's unfair to expect an unbiased opinion from the average Argentinian on who is the best.
It's like asking them "Who is better , your wife/ son/ mother or mine?" Because their assessment is probably primarily based in emotion vs logic.
Ah good old cafe. Downplaying Maradona’s achievements 
Never did it on a cold Tuesday night in StokeAh good old cafe. Downplaying Maradona’s achievements
Yes I get that. Basically, it's a nice problem to have, you're very lucky to have arguably the two greatest players ever come from your country. Many nations have never had anyone in the same universe as that pair.
This is a good point
I'm not playing them down, but people who say Maradona is better than Messi seem to play down Messi's achievements. Messi has achieved far more by the way and all people say is "world cup".Ah good old cafe. Downplaying Maradona’s achievements
Galácticos Real was far from the best team, they were very good, but not enough to challenge for many trophies consecutively like City and current Real Madrid, so i would say the only real top team R9 played for is Brazil.
When Pele played at Santos, the Brazilian league was the most stacked out there with talent.
Goal inflation is more noticeable nowadays due to Bosman ruling, the richest teams can sign the best foreigners without thinking about restrictions, so nowadays 90% of the best talent in the world ends up playing at the elite clubs.
We won't the see cases anymore like Maradona at Napoli, Matthaus at Monchengladbach, Zico at Udinese, or brazilian Falcao at Roma.