Lionel Messi | PSG Watch

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No but it just gives an idea that Messi dominated every aspect of attacking football from key passes to goals to assists to dribbles to chance creation for more than 10 years, whether he had Xavi or Iniesta or Neymar or Suarez or Dani Alves, or if he didn't had any of them. He still was the same player, yes he had lesser goals post them, but when a player is almost the sole source of creativity, his goal scoring stats drop, which is natural, as seen with his Argentina career, where he has good goals stats, but not Barcelona Messi level. But you look at his Argentina creativity and dribbling stats, and you will see he is still dominating those stats.

The very idea that Messi is shit without Pep or Xavi/Iniesta, is what being refuted by those stats. Ofcourse with them he reached other worldly goal stats, but even without them, his other aspects of the game never really dropped nor was he ever dependant on them for those things. Ofcourse for winning the whole damn thing he needs better teammates or at least functional teammates (like his recent Argentina team, which has no superstar barring Di Maria, but everyone else have great functionality) who do not drop their pants when Messi is having an off day. And that is true for every great player.

And it isn't just with Barcelona.
Messi has also dominated all of those stats with Argentina. He has had the most number of assists in the same time(2010 onwards) period in international football, and another unverified stat is he has had the most chance created during the same period more than any other player, although that is unverified, so let's leave it.


Just take the recent Copa America as an example, he dominated all the attacking stats the whole tournament before his semi final injury. And he still was the same lazy Messi, who does nothing but stroll in the field when he doesn't have the ball. He was the same lazy ass in 2012 whether scoring 91 goals or when he lost the ball and didn't even made an attempt to win back the ball, which led to Chelsea win the 2011/12 UCL or in 2015 when he destroyed every champion team in Europe or in years post when he dominated the first leg and than in the next leg, his team's folded like any female pornstar in front of Johnny Sins. He was still the same Messi, strolling in the park, just analysing things.
I'm not sure, are you a fan of his?
 

Gehrman

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No but it just gives an idea that Messi dominated every aspect of attacking football from key passes to goals to assists to dribbles to chance creation for more than 10 years, whether he had Xavi or Iniesta or Neymar or Suarez or Dani Alves, or if he didn't had any of them. He still was the same player, yes he had lesser goals post them, but when a player is almost the sole source of creativity, his goal scoring stats drop, which is natural, as seen with his Argentina career, where he has good goals stats, but not Barcelona Messi level. But you look at his Argentina creativity and dribbling stats, and you will see he is still dominating those stats.

The very idea that Messi is shit without Pep or Xavi/Iniesta, is what being refuted by those stats. Ofcourse with them he reached other worldly goal stats, but even without them, his other aspects of the game never really dropped nor was he ever dependant on them for those things. Ofcourse for winning the whole damn thing he needs better teammates or at least functional teammates (like his recent Argentina team, which has no superstar barring Di Maria, but everyone else have great functionality) who do not drop their pants when Messi is having an off day. And that is true for every great player.

And it isn't just with Barcelona.
Messi has also dominated all of those stats with Argentina. He has had the most number of assists in the same time(2010 onwards) period in international football, and another unverified stat is he has had the most chance created during the same period more than any other player, although that is unverified, so let's leave it.


Just take the recent Copa America as an example, he dominated all the attacking stats the whole tournament before his semi final injury. And he still was the same lazy Messi, who does nothing but stroll in the field when he doesn't have the ball. He was the same lazy ass in 2012 whether scoring 91 goals or when he lost the ball and didn't even made an attempt to win back the ball, which led to Chelsea win the 2011/12 UCL or in 2015 when he destroyed every champion team in Europe or in years post when he dominated the first leg and than in the next leg, his team's folded like any female pornstar in front of Johnny Sins. He was still the same Messi, strolling in the park, just analysing things.
Younger Messi was far more dynamic.
 

Gehrman

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So it's finally ok to say Messi's been shocking for PSG so far? He just doesn't care, I think.
Mixed bag imo. But definitely dissapointing.
 

AjaxCunian

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Will he win the Ballon d'Or? Are Salah/Lewandowski/Haaland maybe better shouts now that he has quite a poor season after the summer?
 

RedRonaldo

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Will he win the Ballon d'Or? Are Salah/Lewandowski/Haaland maybe better shouts now that he has quite a poor season after the summer?
The voting has already been done around a month ago, no one could have foreseen him being so poor in the new season, so he probably wouldn’t get affected there.
 

kouroux

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Yep, one is a box player at the business end while Messi plays deeper and naturally has more ground to cover which he doesn’t really do.
That’s a huge difference
Moreover, if one is being objective, there is no need for numbers to see who is lazier than who. It's not even close. I have no idea if it's because of stamina or simple motivation but it's defo not a good look on him.
This causes the other CMs to overcompensate for him and they end up getting injured like Herrera last night
 

A-man

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Both him and the other two up front basically do zero pressing and it’s so easy to play pass them. All 3 great with the ball and in attack but I feel that in modern football you need to contribute more than that. Ok with one non-pressing forward but 3?
 

Gehrman

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I dont understand how Messi can be so unwilling to run in a big game. You dont need a coach to tell you that if you are the best player in history. Either he's still carrying an injury, his legs are finally shot or he just stopped caring.
 

Zehner

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Both him and the other two up front basically do zero pressing and it’s so easy to play pass them. All 3 great with the ball and in attack but I feel that in modern football you need to contribute more than that. Ok with one non-pressing forward but 3?
Yes. Not going to work.

I dont understand how Messi can be so unwilling to run in a big game. You dont need a coach to tell you that if you are the best player in history. Either he's still carrying an injury, his legs are finally shot or he just stopped caring.
He never ran much and was always a player to burst to life in the right moments. The problem is if you pair that with Neymar and Mbappe who play the same way these days. You can't have three players like that to carry around.

It's a bit surreal to watch. One might think they see themselves that this won't work, especially when in contrast to City's collective work ethic and in Messi's case having played under Guardiola as well.
 

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People age at different rates and Messi does not look close to Ronaldo in his physique despite being younger - he never did - but its hardly surprising if at 34 he is a shadow if his former self - it happens to a lot of players at that age
 

OnlyTwoDaSilvas

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He still comes alive when he has the ball, his passing last night was excellent. But without the ball he barely moves, even when his team has possession, the whole team move forward in transition whilst he's often seen walking, and he ends up being not to far away from his own centre backs. A lot of the time it was Herrera where you'd expect Messi to be.
 

ericPSG

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I have watched every PSG games with him
I'm not shocked that he walk all the time and does not make any defensive effort. It's an issue but it's not surprising

But the lack of speed on the counter is the real shocker for me.

I hope he's just out of shape. If that's his best level now, I'd rather have Di Maria starting over him.
 

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It's the same way with Ronaldo. You don't put them in your team and ask them to do dirty works. The team mates need to compensate for them. But the positives you'll get by covering for them are far greater. In the case of PSG I think their forwards are worse when it comes into workrate compared to us. I have never in my entire life seen Neymar trackback against the opposing forward. Mbappe, sometimes, but apparently he's not doing it now?
 

KingCavani

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Has been a liability in these games for years. Do people think it's a coincidence that Barcelona would routinely get decimated away from home against better sides?

You can't afford to carry someone who does so little. There's not even a comparison to Ronaldo in this regard because Ronaldo works hard when his team is in possession. Messi only works when he is in possession.

Just an embarrassing display last night. I actually feel bad for Neymar getting lumped in with him because he works far harder.
 

OK_computer

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Not sure why people are surprised with his lack of defensive effort, it has been an issue for years now. I think the main problem is his lack of movement when PSG are in possesion, he simply doesn't make himself available anymore. He obviously declined and while he is still more than capable of producing magic moments, he disrupts the team formation. With him on the pitch is almost impossible to implement a strict style of play, he is too used to ''give me the ball and I'll take care of the rest'' strategy.
I'm sure he'll improve in the coming months, but Poch has some serious problem on his hands. I wouldn't write PSG off though, they still have enough quallity to go all the way.
 

kouroux

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It's the same way with Ronaldo. You don't put them in your team and ask them to do dirty works. The team mates need to compensate for them. But the positives you'll get by covering for them are far greater. In the case of PSG I think their forwards are worse when it comes into workrate compared to us. I have never in my entire life seen Neymar trackback against the opposing forward. Mbappe, sometimes, but apparently he's not doing it now?
Teams can cater to one lazy forward but having 3 of them is just too much
 

RedRonaldo

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I don’t understand why all the sudden criticism on Messi (or Ronaldo) on their lack of pressing or being lazy on the pitch. When a player has same talent as they do, and scoring that many goals and being so dominating, surely you wouldn’t want to waste their energy on doing those dirty works?
 

Gehrman

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I don’t understand why all the sudden criticism on Messi (or Ronaldo) on their lack of pressing or being lazy on the pitch. When a player has same talent as they do, and scoring that many goals and being so dominating, surely you wouldn’t want to waste their energy on doing those dirty works?
Its also about having the movement to make yourself available and making runs forward. Messi barely seemed arsed during a counter.
 

Amar__

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I don’t understand why all the sudden criticism on Messi (or Ronaldo) on their lack of pressing or being lazy on the pitch. When a player has same talent as they do, and scoring that many goals and being so dominating, surely you wouldn’t want to waste their energy on doing those dirty works?
Because he is nowhere near good with the ball at the moment to compensate for that?
 

Pace Abuser

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I think being lumped with Ronaldo is doing Messi a disservice. He's 34 and no where near the physical specimen Ronaldo is. It's not implausible that he's simply declined physically. It's about the right age for him to be hanging his boots up or dropping a level.
 

RedRonaldo

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Because he is nowhere near good with the ball at the moment to compensate for that?
Sure, but you still wouldn’t want him to do those donkey works for your team though? Rather would want him to take his time, adapt to the new system, get back to his form and play his game. Especially when he was in Ballon D’or form not long ago ( during first half of the year and during summer Copa)
 

Lewnited

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I think he's put in similar performances all throughout his 30's, he ghosts around until the ball is at his feet, but manages to produce something near enough every time once he's on it. If PSG want to get the best out of him, they'll have to come to terms with him being the focal point for everything they do offensively and work to find him as much as possible.

No idea how they compensate for his lack of energy with Mbappe and Neymar also in the team though. Maybe Messi as a #10 in a 3-5-2 would give them the pitch coverage while also giving Messi the freedom to roam.
 

LoneStar

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Watched the full match yesterday, and he was awful. Yes, the counter setup of the team might not have suited him, but he didn’t seem interested at all. Shadow of the player from a couple of years ago.

I wouldn’t be surprised if PSG go for Ronaldo when he’s 40. They just seem to care about big names than actually winning as a team. Been a poor transfer for them, looks like he’s lost his spark. And Ramos too :lol:
 

Santoryo

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I don’t understand why all the sudden criticism on Messi (or Ronaldo) on their lack of pressing or being lazy on the pitch. When a player has same talent as they do, and scoring that many goals and being so dominating, surely you wouldn’t want to waste their energy on doing those dirty works?
It's important to understand that the game has changed, even from just 5 years ago. Tactics and systems have severely off set sheer talents and now teams need to rely a lot more on defined and dominant system to be relevant at the very top. Just having top, talented players isn't enough anymore and teams can't afford to cater to their star's lack of efforts let alone several stars lack of effort in a team.

Heck just a few years ago teams could afford to ignore some of their attackers not putting in a shift but things have changed so much in just a few years that everyone has to work hard and put in a shift in order to stay competitive at the very top.
 

KeanoMagicHat

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I don’t understand why all the sudden criticism on Messi (or Ronaldo) on their lack of pressing or being lazy on the pitch. When a player has same talent as they do, and scoring that many goals and being so dominating, surely you wouldn’t want to waste their energy on doing those dirty works?
Because they're getting lazier and lazier and their general play isn't quite as good to make up for it. This is what happens when great players are 34 and 36. You can't compare Messi at 34 and Ronaldo at 36 to Messi at 24 and Ronaldo at 26 and apply the same analysis. They're different players.

The peak was so high that even in decline, they're still very good players, but they're not untouchable anymore. Time is moving on, and it's only going to get worse in the next year or two.
 

VanKenny

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Honestly i think PSG would benefit much more if they adopted the Barca's playstyle of the last few years which was basically "give the ball to Messi at all times".

Watching yesterday's game (just the highlights to be perfectly honest) i saw a pretty good Messi and he was basically involved in all of Paris attacks, doing mostly everything right as he usually does. Saw some opportunities where they could have give him the ball and instead they went for Neymar/Mbappe which granted are great players but not at the level of Messi, even old Messi.

So im guessing his criticism comes from his defensive duties which he has never been know for anyway. Id say they should seriously try to focus their entire offense on Messi and let him make the decision of giving it to Neymar/Mbappe when he feels its right. Sounds silly but i really believe so.

On top of that, an engaged Messi is always better than a Messi that gets the ball every 10 minutes. If his mind is 100% on the game, he performs much better than if he feels hes being overlooked. Dani Alves said it best just a few years ago, something along the lines of "i had to pass to Messi even when it wasnt comfortable because i knew if he didnt get the ball often his mind would start drifting away from the game" or something like that.
 

ariveded

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Ronaldo must be loving it. His biggest difference with Messi is his adaptation and probably, it's a good time to appreciate the former.
 

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Ronaldo must be loving it. His biggest difference with Messi is his adaptation and probably, it's a good time to appreciate the former.
His team is in shambles too though and he may not even be playing CL football next year depending on how the season goes.