Lionel Messi | PSG Watch

[Ladron de redcafe]

But the on field accomplishments! Think about the on field accomplishments!!

They're hilarious. On field accomplishments such as most trophies, most golden boots, most player of the tournament awards? Messi owns all those, as well.

So it's just daft

 

[cyberman]

No shit, sherlock.

So why do you keep bringing up his opinion to me?
Are there quotes from Messi saying he prefers Balon Dors over on field accomplishments or do you live your life by what Ronaldo says?
Ronaldo holds a lot of records that Messi will never have and that’s not down to getting a Henry Winter giving him a vote

 

[JPRouve]

Cristiano is mostly an off the ball player, much much easier to adapt to than someone like Messi, who needs the ball at all times. Particularly for a side like PSG, who already have plenty of those types of players, and they're all world class too(Neymar, Di Maria, Mbappé, Verratti...)

I agree with that but the point is simply about using a player in a role that suits him, all players benefit greatly from it and are penalized when it's not the case. The level or profile of the player barely matter.

 

[Dec9003]

No Barcelona had to replace Griezmann with Luuk de Jong, a player who failed at Newcastle. They couldn’t afford decent players, and of course Messi should be paid more than a decent player. It’s pretty clear you didn’t pay any attention to the details of Messi’s move, you just read some headlines about some filthy rich guy doing filthy rich things and shame on him for putting money before love of the sport.

Unfortunately the reality doesn’t map onto what you’re saying at all. He had that love at Barcelona and it was taken away from him unceremoniously. He made many attempts to change the financial package to make it work, Barca were just in dire straits, there was nothing workable within the laws they operate under.

Messi should be paid more than a decent player, but if the club that have given him so much money are under dire straits maybe he could have accepted a lower wage? He went to PSG so he could keep having a massive wage, which is his right but when you see how the move has gone maybe it was questionable.

 

[Bebestation]

Barcelona - 21/22 = 64% possesion
Barcelona - 20/21 = 66% possesion
Barcelona - 19/20 = 67% possesion
Barcelona-18/19 = 65% possesion
Barcelona - 17/18 = 62% possesion
Barcelona- 16/17 = 61% Possesion
Barcelona - 15/16 = 64% possesion
Barcelona- 14/15 = 65% possesion
Barcelona - 13/14 = 63% possesion
Barcelona- 12/13 = 67% possesion



These people acting like Barcelona started playing Park the bus under Mourinho or something it's literally engraved in to that team and how it dominates a match but not only that - how the opponent takes on them.

Easy peasy lifestyle.

 

[giorno]

I agree with that but the point is simply about using a player in a role that suits him, all players benefit greatly from it and are penalized when it's not the case. The level or profile of the player barely matter.

I agree with that, but this is a team sport. If adapting to one player means sacrificing 3 others, then that's a problem

 

[JPRouve]

I agree with that, but this is a team sport. If adapting to one player means sacrificing 3 others, then that's a problem

Who would be the sacrificed players?

 

[gorky_utd]

No Barcelona had to replace Griezmann with Luuk de Jong, a player who failed at Newcastle. They couldn’t afford decent players, and of course Messi should be paid more than a decent player. It’s pretty clear you didn’t pay any attention to the details of Messi’s move, you just read some headlines about some filthy rich guy doing filthy rich things and shame on him for putting money before love of the sport.

Unfortunately the reality doesn’t map onto what you’re saying at all. He had that love at Barcelona and it was taken away from him unceremoniously. He made many attempts to change the financial package to make it work, Barca were just in dire straits, there was nothing workable within the laws they operate under.

How much money he was paid by barca in the last 3-4 years? Even if he wanted to stay at barca, the move to PSG feels like he was just chasing money. He knew barca could not afford his salary even if it was halved. It feels like both their president and Messi knew a departure is the only solution. They just made it a little dramatic to save their face.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

So why do you keep bringing up his opinion to me?
Are there quotes from Messi saying he prefers Balon Dors over on field accomplishments or do you live your life by what Ronaldo says?
Ronaldo holds a lot of records that Messi will never have and that’s not down to getting a Henry Winter giving him a vote

I didn't bring anything to you You keep tagging me. Why do you care what I value more in terms of accomplishments?

Ronaldo will have his records and so will a lot of players. The major ones that matter most (down to votes or not) now belong to Messi, and he'll be happy with them.

 

[Brwned]

Messi should be paid more than a decent player, but if the club that have given him so much money are under dire straits maybe he could have accepted a lower wage? He went to PSG so he could keep having a massive wage, which is his right but when you see how the move has gone maybe it was questionable.

He literally could not have accepted a wage low enough to allow Barcelona to keep him because of the financial regulations in La Liga. They look at what a player’s past wages were and then use that to create a minimum salary for the next contract, to avoid clubs moving money around in non-transparent and risky ways. At one point they looked into paying him no salary for 2 years but giving him a lifetime appointment as an ambassador to spread the costs. They can’t, it’s illegal.

And they didn’t have the money for the legal minimum, without selling many more players in a short period of time. He was sold for pragmatic reasons, not because he priced himself out of staying.

You want the narrative that Messi’s a greedy, lazy bastard to be true so you paid attention to the headlines and not the details. You’re still doing it here by saying he priced himself out of a move to better clubs. You don’t even bother to check whether that’s true, it just seems like it’s true and Messi’s a rich wanker so let’s run with it.

 

[giorno]

Who would be the sacrificed players?

Neymar, Mbappé, Verratti, Di Maria, Hakimi, pick any 2 or 3 of those

 

[harms]

Could he not have taken a paycut at Barca? It says a lot that PSG are one of the only clubs with a fat enough wage to tempt him. I’d be embarrassed signing for a club for money and not putting the effort in.

He literally couldn't. As he's already had a contract at Barcelona prior to that they can't offer him a salary lower that a certain % of his previous one due to La Liga's financial regulations. And even the minimal possible offer, that he was willing to take by the way, didn't fit into the salary cap that La Liga had set up for them.

edit: @Brwned said what I've said almost word for word but better

 

[Dec9003]

You want the narrative that Messi’s a greedy, lazy bastard to be true so you paid attention to the headlines and not the details. You’re still doing it here by saying he priced himself out of a move to better clubs. You don’t even bother to check whether that’s true, it just seems like it’s true and Messi’s a rich wanker so let’s run with it.

I actually didn’t know about the contract situation at Barca, so fair enough if he couldn’t stay. I don’t know why you’re crying at me though I never said he’s greedy or lazy. If he wants to go to PSG I think that’s a fair enough thing to do, from a sporting level they could do really well this season with him. He’s not lazy because he’s accepted a massive wage, he’s lazy because he’s gone and isn’t putting the effort in. To me, if you go to a club like PSG and price yourself out of moves to big historic clubs that would no doubt be after Messi, at least look like you’re interested, that’s when it seems like it was a move based on finances rather than sporting merit. I hope this opinion doesn’t upset you too much mate.

 

[Dec9003]

He literally couldn't. As he's already had a contract at Barcelona prior to that they can't offer him a salary lower that a certain % of his previous one due to La Liga's financial regulations. And even the minimal possible offer, that he was willing to take by the way, didn't fit into the salary cap that La Liga had set up for them.

edit: @Brwned said what I've said almost word for word but better

Yeah fair enough I didn’t know this, I wouldn’t say he said it better, he said it more defensively as if I was attacking a member of his family.

 

[cyberman]

I didn't bring anything to you You keep tagging me. Why do you care what I value more in terms of accomplishments?

Ronaldo will have his records and so will a lot of players. The major ones that matter most (down to votes or not) now belong to Messi, and he'll be happy with them.

Is this also Ronaldos opinion or are we allowed to form our own?

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Is this also Ronaldos opinion or are we allowed to form or own?

What's stopping you from doing so? Go right ahead.

 

[Zehner]

Is this also Ronaldos opinion or are we allowed to form our own?

I think people would welcome you forming an opinion and not just adapting the one that favors Ronaldo the most, regardless of logic and sense.

 

[cyberman]

What's stopping you from doing so? Go right ahead.

You apparently. Every second post is about Ronaldos opinion on the matter.

 

[JPRouve]

Neymar, Mbappé, Verratti, Di Maria, Hakimi, pick any 2 or 3 of those

Why would Mbappé, Hakimi, Verratti or Di Maria suffer from it?

Verratti has never been comfortable in the final third and thrives in the middle third having someone like Messi taking care of the last third absolutely benefits him, Mbappé is an off ball player that has no reason to not benefit from having a creative player like Messi feeding him, Di Maria is one of the few player who has played at a high level for Argentina during Messi's era and finally with Hakimi's willingness to push forward and take care of the right wing Messi can float inside in a similar way Dani Alves used to.

Neymar is the only one that is also a ball dominant player but there is no obvious reason as to why you only need one player of that sort, Neymar is a fairly flexible player that can be used in different areas without problem.

 

[Brwned]

I actually didn’t know about the contract situation at Barca, so fair enough if he couldn’t stay. I don’t know why you’re crying at me though I never said he’s greedy or lazy. If he wants to go to PSG I think that’s a fair enough thing to do, from a sporting level they could do really well this season with him. He’s not lazy because he’s accepted a massive wage, he’s lazy because he’s gone and isn’t putting the effort in. To me, if you go to a club like PSG and price yourself out of moves to big historic clubs that would no doubt be after Messi, at least look like you’re interested, that’s when it seems like it was a move based on finances rather than sporting merit. I hope this opinion doesn’t upset you too much mate.

You just said he priced himself out of Barcelona, only to find out the facts don’t support that claim at all. Don’t you think it’s possible the same thing is true of the PSG move? You’re saying he priced himself out of other clubs, but you don’t have any evidence for it, it’s just a notion…I just don’t get why it makes sense to criticise someone for something you don’t know is true. Especially given you’ve just criticised him for something that demonstrably isn’t true.

 

[cyberman]

I think people would welcome you forming an opinion and not just adapting the one that favors Ronaldo the most, regardless of logic and sense.

Im not stating opinion when I’m posting facts on what Ronaldo has won and achieved? Actual on field records?
If anything it’s Ballon Dor that’s formed on opinion is it not?

 

[Dec9003]

You just said he priced himself out of Barcelona, only to find out the facts don’t support that claim at all. Don’t you think it’s possible the same thing is true of the PSG move? You’re saying he priced himself out of other clubs, but you don’t have any evidence for it, it’s just a notion…I just don’t get why it makes sense to criticise someone for something you don’t know is true. Especially given you’ve just criticised him for something that demonstrably isn’t true.

He left Barca after his contract expired, so surely outside of Spain he could have signed for teams in Germany, England, Italy and of course France, no? I’m criticising him for not trying in France, which is true to everyone watching PSG. I admitted I was wrong about the contract at Barca and have moved on, you have nothing else to say so fair enough.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

You apparently. Every second post is about Ronaldos opinion on the matter.

I'm stopping you from opining but mentioning Ronaldo's own statement about him valuing the Balón d'Or more than anything?

 

[Zehner]

Im not stating opinion when I’m posting facts on what Ronaldo has won and achieved? Actual on field records?
If anything it’s Ballon Dor that’s formed on opinion is it not?

No offense mate but discussing anyting United related with you is a pain the ass. You come across as very loyal to your club and its associates but simultaneously you're not very critical of them.

That you're citing those "on field accomplishments" on repeat after Messi won the 7th Ballon D'Or just adds to that impression. It is kind of a cringy take because you have to be nitpicking to conclude Ronaldo has more on field accomplishments than Messi. And even more so to derive from that that he's a greater player.

The reason Messi has more Ballon D'Ors than Ronaldo is and always was that he offers much more apart from goals. Only on top of that he rivals respectively even bests him in almost all goal related stats bar a very few which are usually related to cumulative stats due to Ronaldo being older. In essence, you could as well argue that, I don't know, Raul was a better player than Ronaldinho because he has more goals and titles than the Brazilian.

 

[cyberman]

No offense mate but discussing anyting United related with you is a pain the ass. You come across as very loyal to your club and its associates but simultaneously you're not very critical of them.

That you're citing those "on field accomplishments" on repeat after Messi won the 7th Ballon D'Or just adds to that impression. It is kind of a cringy take because you have to be nitpicking to conclude Ronaldo has more on field accomplishments than Messi. And even more so to derive from that that he's a greater player.

The reason Messi has more Ballon D'Ors than Ronaldo is and always was that he offers much more apart from goals. Only on top of that he rivals respectively even bests him in almost all goal related stats bar a very few which are usually related to cumulative stats due to Ronaldo being older. In essence, you could as well argue that, I don't know, Raul was a better player than Ronaldinho because he has more goals and titles than the Brazilian.

I’m literally not nit picking anything. Ronaldo holds most, if not all of the goal scoring records and accomplishments. Where’s the cherry picking? If anything it’s Messi fans who have to cherry pick records wise Ronaldo holds so many.
It’s posts like this which are ridiculous, this attempt to talk around them and down play because it’s not Messi who holds them.
I still think Messi is the better player, I have never said otherwise but it’s Ronaldo fans pointing out facts and get answered with condescending nonsense like this that’s triggering.
it doesn’t take a Utd fan to point out what Ronaldo has won. It doesn’t take a Utd fan to compare Ronaldos first season at Juve to Messi at PSG. It doesn’t take a United fan to point out that Ronaldo has smashed every goal scoring record that has Messi trailing behind him.No top manager, no real manager anyway even values Ballon Dor but it’s being held up here as the ultimate test just because Messi won 7.
I repeat, I think Messi is the better player but Ronaldo is the one who has achieved more in the game imo. For years we were told how Messi would destroy any league he was in and Ronaldos record of winning major titles in multiple countries didn’t mean much yet here we are.
it’s just years of this nonsense.

 

[Zehner]

I’m literally not nit picking anything. Ronaldo holds most, if not all of the goal scoring records and accomplishments. Where’s the cherry picking? If anything it’s Messi fans who have to cherry pick records wise Ronaldo holds so many.
It’s posts like this which are ridiculous, this attempt to talk around them and down play because it’s not Messi who holds them.
I still think Messi is the better player, I have never said otherwise but it’s Ronaldo fans pointing out facts and get answered with condescending nonsense like this that’s triggering.
it doesn’t take a Utd fan to point out what Ronaldo has won. It doesn’t take a Utd fan to compare Ronaldos first season at Juve to Messi at PSG. It doesn’t take a United fan to point out that Ronaldo has smashed every goal scoring record that has Messi trailing behind him.No top manager, no real manager anyway even values Ballon Dor but it’s being held up here as the ultimate test just because Messi won 7.
I repeat, I think Messi is the better player but Ronaldo is the one who has achieved more in the game imo. For years we were told how Messi would destroy any league he was in and Ronaldos record of winning major titles in multiple countries didn’t mean much yet here we are.
it’s just years of this nonsense.

See, personally I find it silly to compare players based on trophies or goals to begin with but those arguments you picked are very hypocritical even by the standards of the Messi and Ronaldo thread.

I mean, even if it were the ultimate metrics to compare them, Messi holds many records over Ronaldo in the goal scoring department (most goals in a calendar year, most goals in a season, most golden shoes etc.) and on top of that has a better goals per minute ratio than him. Moreover, Messi has one CL less (and I know he wasn't the main player for his first CL but if you take metrics without context, you have to consider that one as well) but has much more domestic trophies than Ronaldo, especially while both played in the same league.

Moreover, the whole debate over goals is nitpicking in itself because Messi is much more than that while Ronaldo has been primarily about goals for the better part of his career. It's an unfair comparison in itself that Messi still manages to maintain open. So I'm sure if you try to see all this from a different perspective, you understand why people interpret it as nitpicking if you claim that Ronaldo has the "on field accomplishments" while Messi only has the popularity.

 

[Daysleeper]

Cristiano is mostly an off the ball player, much much easier to adapt to than someone like Messi, who needs the ball at all times. Particularly for a side like PSG, who already have plenty of those types of players, and they're all world class too(Neymar, Di Maria, Mbappé, Verratti...)

agreed, but it is odd that nearly EVERYONE is struggling at psg. Messi been a letdown, but outside of perhaps mbappe and gini it feels like Poch may be an issue as the whole team looks out of sorts

 

[BalanceUnAutreJoint]

His level was very good in an international tournament just a few months back and he scored nice goal v Man. City a few weeks ago. Just don't think he's that motivated playing likes of Lens and Stade Reims. At least in La Liga you have the Madrid games, Valencia, Sevilla etc that are teams Barca had good duels with home and away, really only Marseille domestically that will probably rouse him.

Different leagues require different attributes, in Ligue 1 pace and power is everything. A player that can't run behind defenders or bully them physically isn't scoring 25-30 goals in that league, it's just how it is.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

I’m literally not nit picking anything. Ronaldo holds most, if not all of the goal scoring records and accomplishments. Where’s the cherry picking? If anything it’s Messi fans who have to cherry pick records wise Ronaldo holds so many.
It’s posts like this which are ridiculous, this attempt to talk around them and down play because it’s not Messi who holds them.
I still think Messi is the better player, I have never said otherwise but it’s Ronaldo fans pointing out facts and get answered with condescending nonsense like this that’s triggering.
it doesn’t take a Utd fan to point out what Ronaldo has won. It doesn’t take a Utd fan to compare Ronaldos first season at Juve to Messi at PSG. It doesn’t take a United fan to point out that Ronaldo has smashed every goal scoring record that has Messi trailing behind him.No top manager, no real manager anyway even values Ballon Dor but it’s being held up here as the ultimate test just because Messi won 7.
I repeat, I think Messi is the better player but Ronaldo is the one who has achieved more in the game imo. For years we were told how Messi would destroy any league he was in and Ronaldos record of winning major titles in multiple countries didn’t mean much yet here we are.
it’s just years of this nonsense.

You do realize that Messi leads in trophies, top scorer awards, player of the tournament awards, player of the year awards, and has the statistical edge in goal scoring average, assist average, goal scoring peak, assists in a calender year and most impact metrics, do you?

Let me guess. None of those qualify as "on field" accomplishments in your mind, but (bizzarely) cumulative totals do?

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

See, personally I find it silly to compare players based on trophies or goals to begin with but those arguments you picked are very hypocritical even by the standards of the Messi and Ronaldo thread.

I mean, even if it were the ultimate metrics to compare them, Messi holds many records over Ronaldo in the goal scoring department (most goals in a calendar year, most goals in a season, most golden shoes etc.) and on top of that has a better goals per minute ratio than him. Moreover, Messi has one CL less (and I know he wasn't the main player for his first CL but if you take metrics without context, you have to consider that one as well) but has much more domestic trophies than Ronaldo, especially while both played in the same league.

Moreover, the whole debate over goals is nitpicking in itself because Messi is much more than that while Ronaldo has been primarily about goals for the better part of his career. It's an unfair comparison in itself that Messi still manages to maintain open. So I'm sure if you try to see all this from a different perspective, you understand why people interpret it as nitpicking if you claim that Ronaldo has the "on field accomplishments" while Messi only has the popularity.

It isn't just nitpicking. It's inaccurate. Messi has most of the "on field accomplishments" as well, so the point doesn't even make sense.

 

[OK_computer]

Mental gymnastics used by some of the Messi fans is hilarious. He has been absolutely shocking for PSG but they still find everything and everyone else to blame but him.

 

[giorno]

Different leagues require different attributes, in Ligue 1 pace and power is everything. A player that can't run behind defenders or bully them physically isn't scoring 25-30 goals in that league, it's just how it is.

Eh. Cavani? Falcao? Thauvin????

Bit of a myth honestly. Pace and power are just useful attributes for strikers in general, i mean, it's not like there's a lot of players like Messi topping the scoring charts in other top leagues...

Besides, Messi is still quite fast

 

[Gehrman]

So Ronaldo was only ever in a bad 'system' if he got played as a midfielder or something?

He got played as a RW during his early years anyway, hardly the correct system even in that method.

Now as an older player, many think he needs a striker partner when playing as a forward and he barely played with one at United like he did at Juventus.

Er Ronaldo was a winger when we bought him.

 

[Gehrman]

Barcelona - 21/22 = 64% possesion
Barcelona - 20/21 = 66% possesion
Barcelona - 19/20 = 67% possesion
Barcelona-18/19 = 65% possesion
Barcelona - 17/18 = 62% possesion
Barcelona- 16/17 = 61% Possesion
Barcelona - 15/16 = 64% possesion
Barcelona- 14/15 = 65% possesion
Barcelona - 13/14 = 63% possesion
Barcelona- 12/13 = 67% possesion



These people acting like Barcelona started playing Park the bus under Mourinho or something it's literally engraved in to that team and how it dominates a match but not only that - how the opponent takes on them.

Easy peasy lifestyle.

What's Real Madrid's possesion like during Ronaldo's time there? Where do you get the info from?

 

[giorno]

What's Real Madrid's possesion like during Ronaldo's time there? Where do you get the info from?

Averaged in the mid 50% iirc

 

[Pocho]

Ronaldo fans bringing the debate, that they lost btw, here. Messi is doing fine, yesterday he hit the post and had a couple of assists that miraculously didn't get in. He's adapting to a new team, new city, language, teammates, manager and the team is adapting to him too.

 

[shamans]

Ronaldo fans bringing the debate, that they lost btw, here. Messi is doing fine, yesterday he hit the post and had a couple of assists that miraculously didn't get in. He's adapting to a new team, new city, language, teammates, manager and the team is adapting to him too.

The league being Ligue 1 Uber eats.

It's levels below the premier league let alone Barca.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

He's adapting to a new team, new city, language, teammates, manager and the team is adapting to him too.

Messi needs to use a pocket phrase book to talk to Mauricio Pochettino, Neymar, Sergio Ramos, Keylor Navas, Leandro Paredes, Mauro Icardi, Angel Di Maria, Rafinha, and Hakimi.

 

[Beans]

agreed, but it is odd that nearly EVERYONE is struggling at psg. Messi been a letdown, but outside of perhaps mbappe and gini it feels like Poch may be an issue as the whole team looks out of sorts

I'm not sold on Poch, one good run in Europe doesn't make you a top manager.

 

[The Corinthian]

Ronaldo fans bringing the debate, that they lost btw, here. Messi is doing fine, yesterday he hit the post and had a couple of assists that miraculously didn't get in. He's adapting to a new team, new city, language, teammates, manager and the team is adapting to him too.

What’s an assist that ‘didn’t get in’?