La Liga has definitely been declining 2018 onward. An even worse Barca team only had one loss in all of 2018 in La Liga. Would still take that over the dross we have this season. Far fewer goals scored now too, La Liga has a product has been declining for many years now.
Lionel Messi | PSG Watch
- Thread starter Samid
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I made a post with actual numbers. There's no numbers here, just vibes and feelings.
Real Madrid had 84 points last season and 87 the previous one, they're projected to finish right in between those two numbers this season. They finished 1st in their CL group with 5 more points than last season. They are doing poorly in the R16, the same as in two of the previous three seasons. By this point last season they'd crashed out of the Supercup and the Cup; this season they crashed out of the Cup but won the Supercup.
There are't 8 teams in La Liga with less goals than games played. There are 4: Cadiz, Alaves, Mallorca, and Getafe. There are three teams, Real Sociedad, Osasuna, and Levante, which have the same amount of goals as games played. The thing is, I can just look at the same data for last season. And what I find is that, last season, at matchday 25, 8 teams in La Liga had scored less goals than played games.
By your own standards La Liga was as bad last season.
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You've already made this point and it was already absurd the 1st time, please don't double down.
Also, it's obvious Liga is declining for a couple of years but it's obvious to anyone who watches the games that this season has the worst overall level in decades. Seeing Sevilla sitting at the 2nd place considering how they play is petrifying.
People are using these metrics so that clueless people especially Ronaldo fans can understand that number of goals is not the only think that makes a player great, the double standards are unreal. I will explain with a simple example.
Do people expect Ronaldo to exhibit world class playmaking skills? No
Do people expect Ronaldo to lead the team in terms of chance creation especially out of nothing? No
Do people expect Ronaldo to exhibit world class creativity, passing? No
Do people expect Ronaldo to exhibit world class dribbling skills? No
Do people expect Ronaldo to convert free-kicks or score goals outside the box? No
Do people expect Ronaldo to convert tap-ins and penalties? Yes, and when he does that it is sufficient for him to be considered to have a good game, why? Because, he is on the scoresheet. His fans riot when he scores a goal outside the box or makes a good pass 1-2 times a season.
What about Messi?
Do people expect Messi to exhibit world class playmaking skills? Yes
Do people expect Messi to lead the team in terms of chance creation especially out of nothing? Yes
Do people expect Messi to exhibit world class creativity, passing? Yes
Do people expect Messi to exhibit world class dribbling skills? Yes
Do people expect Messi to convert free-kicks or score goals outside the box? Yes
Do people expect Messi to score as many goals as the top strikers even when playing in a much deeper position? Yes, and when he does not do that, even if he was good to great in all other aspects of the game, he is considered to have a bad game, no other player in history of football was held to such ridiculous standards as Messi, it is beyond real. That explains why people use stats other than the number of goals as goals are just a part of Messi's game not the whole thing.
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Who the hell cares about Messi being Henry of Arsenal? Not like it's a bad thing, i don't think it's a bad thing tbh.
At the end of the day, he still have 7 Balloon D'or, 2 more than Ronaldo, and Ronaldo isn't winning one more, so it will stay that way.
That's what people will remember 7 > 5.
You just summarize what i think.
People expect old Messi to play deeper and also score, they don't expect old Cristiano to do that, they only want Cristiano to score tap-ins...and Man Utd fans are complaining that now he can't even score and miss chances.
Messi is also a playmaker unlike Ronaldo, which is why I think he is better than Ronaldo, because he scores a lot, but also makes his team play.
If all Messi would do is score, nobody would compare him to Maradona, considering that top scorers like Harry Kane were never compared to Maradona despite scoring a lot.
People will also remember that Ronaldo has 3 The Best trophies, while Messi only has 1, so the result is 3 > 1
People will remember another thing too, Ronaldo is the top scorer in football history with 804 goals, while Messi has 758 goals. Being the top scorer in football history is a hell of an achievement, people will remember that forever.
PSG won the France Cup every year without Messi, and now with Messi PSG couldn't even get past the round of 16. That means Messi turned PSG into a worse team, this is the truth as much as it hurts you, it's a 100% fact. Now you can accept this fact like a man or you can throw a tantrum about it, you can keep saying excuses but at the end of the day nothing is going to change. You can't change a fact.
What’s a better top 5, this year or last? Seriously
Not 100% fact as Rennes beat them in the final of 2019. Also I don't know what you mean by "every" year, but if you mean since the takeover, that's not true either. They were taken over in 2011, and didn't win the french cup under that ownership until 2014. Yes, Messi isn't playing very well for them but let's not make up facts here, especially when you are accusing others of chnaging facts.
The Best trophies
, what is that about? Have never seen or heard it before. I would recommend not going through the individual awards path as Ronaldo is destroyed there. As Ronaldo mentioned in his interviews, his dream was to have the most Golden Shoes and Ballon D'ors, and he is behind in both not to mention he has zero MVP award in an international tournament unlike Messi with 5.In terms of goals, Messi has 6 Golden Shoes vs Ronaldo's 4 despite being a playmaker not to mention he has a better goal per game ratio than Ronaldo. Ronaldo scored 46 goals more playing as a tap-in expert for a long time playing 200 something more games. Nowadays, people mostly associate Ronaldo with tap-ins.
Also, Messi turning PSG into a worse team
, a characteristic Ronaldo now is his famous for after his failed experiment with Juve and now at United, the team that finished 2nd last season. Last time I checked, most United fans want him gone for next season, really embarrassing considering some at United consider him a club legend..Exactly, the expectations from Ronaldo are so low and one-dimensional to the extent that people are looking for micro reasons to call his game a good one when he is mostly terrible even in games where he scores nowadays. With Messi, it is the complete opposite where the expectations are sky high and varied as usual. The funniest part is comparing both players only using their goal outputs as if they play at the same position and as if nothing else matters in football.
There's the Ballon d'or and there's The Best.
Ronaldo has 3 The Bests, and Messi 1, so 3 > 1, so Ronaldo is the best. It's simple.
And Messi has scored only two goals this season in the league
No wonder why PSG fans want him gone next summer, they're paying him 40 millions and he only scored two goals, PSG fans want to get rid of Messi and give his 40 millions to Mbappe so he can stay, because Mbappe is the best player of PSG.
, this is an embarrassment for Messi whether you like it or not, and yes, he turned PSG into a worse team, you can't go against the facts and the stats.
Ronaldo has 3 The Bests, and Messi 1, so 3 > 1, so Ronaldo is the best. It's simple.
And Messi has scored only two goals this season in the league
No wonder why PSG fans want him gone next summer, they're paying him 40 millions and he only scored two goals, PSG fans want to get rid of Messi and give his 40 millions to Mbappe so he can stay, because Mbappe is the best player of PSG.
Since 2015 PSG won the France Cup every year until 2021, except in 2019, they didn't win in 2019 but they reached the Final. So that's 7 years straight reaching the final of the France Cup, and won 6 of those finals. And now with Messi PSG got knocked out from the France Cup in the round of 16
, this is an embarrassment for Messi whether you like it or not, and yes, he turned PSG into a worse team, you can't go against the facts and the stats.
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Last year's top 5 was better.
But half of why last year's top 5 was better is because Barcelona have been worse this year! How does it help Barcelona to be shit?
Nah, Atletico are FAR worse this year than last, Real are worse, and Barca worse. Sevilla is possibly level.
Nearly every top 5 team last year was better. I want la liga to be better, but the games have been kinda dross this season but as a league we’ve been declining 2018 onward.
RM are not really worse squad-wise, the guy in charge is just stubborn, Ancelotti would literally play the same 11 every game if he could.
This just isn't that complicated. La Liga is not the Premier League, there is no competitive top 4 in La Liga. The average points difference between 4th and 5th in the last five seasons has been 8.8. The average points difference between 4th and 5th in the PL, in that same period, has been 2.4. In three out of five seasons it's been 1 point.
This is not an unusual scenario, this exact same thing happened with Real Madrid a few years ago. They lost Cristiano Ronaldo, they lost Zidane, everyone played horribly, they went through three managers in a single season, they were humiliated by Ajax in the CL, finished with their worst points tally since 01/02... and finished 7 points ahead of 4th placed Valencia.
The numbers just don't add up (or subtract) for any credible, likely scenario of Barcelona crashing out of the top 4.
This is not an unusual scenario, this exact same thing happened with Real Madrid a few years ago. They lost Cristiano Ronaldo, they lost Zidane, everyone played horribly, they went through three managers in a single season, they were humiliated by Ajax in the CL, finished with their worst points tally since 01/02... and finished 7 points ahead of 4th placed Valencia.
The numbers just don't add up (or subtract) for any credible, likely scenario of Barcelona crashing out of the top 4.
I agree, but Barca with Messi is a difference and Ancelotti is mediocre at this stage of his career.
Iker, I like your data. But I’ve been watching Barca all season and while we looked better since Xavi joined, missing out on top 4’looked very probably. Worst scoring Barca team in decades alongside our worst defense in a while.
I wasn’t expecting Atletico to fall off this hard.
Tell me you don't see football, without telling me you don't see football.
And if your metric it's goals only. A joke really.
Messi has 6 The Best. Not 1. Ronaldo has 5.
People will go to Youtube and realize the difference between one and another years after they both retire.
Normally CR7 fanboys and defenders will compare the 2 (as well as any other GOAT contenders) using goals only, because that is the only thing he is consistently GOAT level at over the years. He is known for his goals and nothing much else, so his defenders reduce all comparisons to only that single 1 metrix.
Unfortunately for them, there is a reason why Inzaghi is not the better than Zidane. Its a similar reason why Henry is regarded as the better player than RVN
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CR7 has more CL assists than Messi too, but not for much longer as Messi is only behind by 2 so he will catch him up there as well, he might not catch up to his goals though. It's really tough to pick a stat where CR7 comes out looking better than Messi, all the ones that matter besides goals are in Messi's favor.
Twist it however you like. Guy has 2 goals in the Uber eats league.
@Sargent7
Great Posts mate.
This guy won Balon'dor's for dominating one league.
The Coutinho or even Grealish of La Liga.
Outside his comfort zone and his "comfort team" he just isn't all that much.
Some of could see it way earlier but some could not.
Great Posts mate.
This guy won Balon'dor's for dominating one league.
The Coutinho or even Grealish
of La Liga.Outside his comfort zone and his "comfort team" he just isn't all that much.
Some of could see it way earlier but some could not.
You are the one twisting it CR7 fangirl.
Have I said anything incorrect? Your cult only compare goals, whether this season only or over their entire careers, and there is only a reason for it, because your god and savior is only GOAT level in that one thing. Well unless you are one of the delusional ones who think that CR7 has GOAT level dribbling and passing
Ronaldo dribbling used to be great (not GOAT level, but great) before his knee injury, but after that he became mostly a goalscorer.
The thing is that the expectations for Ronaldo now are so low, that many expect him just to give a pre-pre-pre-pre assist o hold the ball well in 3 occasions during a 90 minute match to say he had a good game.
There are people who think he had a very good game against Atlético, just because he hold the ball well in 2 occasions, despite being useless in the attacking phase.
Whereas Messi is expected to dribble 4-5 players and score a golazo or give at least 2 great assists, if he doesn't do that he had a shit game.
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Or, you know, score more than 2 goals.
Fred has more goals than Messi in the league this season. Anyone who makes this season out to be a good one for Messi is clearly being deluded. Even in terms of performances, Messi keeps giving the ball away rather easily under pressure in the games I’ve seen. His decline has been even more rapid than Ronaldo’s.
Bayern scored 8 goals to Barcelona with Messi. But without Messi, Bayern played two times against Barcelona this year and couldn't score more than three goals.
So with Mess in the team, Bayern scored 8 goals to Barcelona, and without Messi Bayern scored them only three. This is another proof that Messi was holding Barcelona back and made them a worse team.
So with Mess in the team, Bayern scored 8 goals to Barcelona, and without Messi Bayern scored them only three. This is another proof that Messi was holding Barcelona back and made them a worse team.
The Best was born in 2016. Ronaldo has won it three times and Messi one. 3 > 1.
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Ronaldo has been much worse than Messi since the new year, but I wouldn’t call this a good season at all for Messi
Portugal with Ronaldo in 2004 lost a final against a terrible Greece in Lisbon.
Portugal with Ronaldo injured and missing most of the match, won a final against France in Paris.
Factos
Ronaldo at the age of 2004
Argentina has won 2 World Cups and 14 America Cups without Messi.
Argentina with Messi only won 1 America Cup even though now they do this tournament almost every year, not once every 4 years like before. And Argentina won that America Cup thanks to Di Maria, because Messi didn't do shit in the Final, it was like Argentina played with 10 men because Messi didn't show up in the Final.
Factos
The problem with your reasoning is that the goal preceded with a beautiful through-pass or a dribble, or a goal scored from outside the box - they're not better in any way than a tap-in. In competitive sport it's the result that counts. The idea that having 10/10 dribbling skills is better than being 10/10 at beating offside trap exists only in the minds of fans. So it's actually you who create double standards where certain skills are super improtant while other are not even discussed. Why did you ommit for example heading skills from your post? Why are they less important? The answer is - because you created your standards in such a way that Messi scores higher than everyone else in them - even if those other players generate equal or better results with them.
This is why people with standards like yours will never understand how someone can rate Ronaldo higher than Messi, or Lewandowski higher than Suarez, or Gerd Muller higher than R9.
There's some crazy ass mental gymnastics about Ronaldo and Messi here, gymnastics made by grown up men. As a neutral, I really hope some of you understand how cringe and low life is this Ronaldo vs Messi comparison over and over again.
You are grown fecking men trying to explain why a player is better than the other with your own subjective arguments. It's like explaining why blue is better than black.
You are grown fecking men trying to explain why a player is better than the other with your own subjective arguments. It's like explaining why blue is better than black.
Amazing logic as usual.
Liverpool won 5-0 against United in Old Trafford with Ronaldo or lost 4-1 to Watford or 2-0 to City in Old Trafford or lost to mighty Middlesbrough in the FA Cup. This is another proof that Ronaldo is holding United back and made United a worse team.
What is the BEST? Does anyone know what it is?
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For almost all football fans (except for Ronaldo fans it seems), style matters, that's a part of the reason why Zidane, Ronaldo, Cruyff, Maradona, Messi are seen as among the greatest. If as a football fan, you only care about the goal stats and not the beauty/creativity/asthetics aspect of football/goals/ assists/dribbles, you are in a rare group (Ronaldo fan group). If you believe passing, dribbling, playmaking do not matter much in football, you are still in a rare group (Ronaldo fan group) probably. If you think, that heading ability has the same importance as passing, playmaking, dribbling, again you belong to a rare group as football world does not care about heading skills as much as others. Heading is a weapon in a forward's arsenal in scoring just like beating offside trap, it is not a separate category like playmaking, scoring, passing. Sorry but your post is full of delusion. Even ordinary players can apply beating offside traps unusually well. Even ordinary players can have amazing heading abilities. You do not see ordinary players with amazing creativity, playmaking skills, technique or dribbling skills. There is a reason football community and fans put a special emphasis on these skills, these are are football basics 101.
In Ronaldo fans' world, dribbling, playmaking, creativity basically all factors that put Maradona, Platini, Xavi, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Kaka, Cruyff among the greatest has the same importance as beating offside traps or heading
, why? because Ronaldo is not even a top 10-20 player in each of these major categories.Let me know what super skills Ronaldo possesses over Maradona, Pele, Xavi, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Cruyff other than total number of goals? Heading and beating offside traps? That will definitely put hundreds of other players above Maradona, Platini, Cruyff etc
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Another delusional post..
Copa not organized that frequently before? are you sure? why are you spamming this thread with false information all the time? Copa was organized 5 times between 1990-2000, 3 times between 2000-2010, and 4 times between 2010 and 2020.
Argentina did not win an WC in the last 35 years, Argentina did not win any Copa in the last 28 years until winning with Messi. Maradona lost a SF against Uruguay in 1987 in Buenos Aires in Copas.
Messi won MVP awards in every single international tournament he competed in, WC, Copas, Olympics, U-2O WC, you name it. Ronaldo has a big fat "0", 4 WCs, 5 Euros, and a zero MVP award, very embarrassing even Zagorakis with Greece, Forlan with Uruguay, Modric with Croatia was able to win one in a EC or WC.
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In Ronaldo fans' world, dribbling, playmaking, creativity basically all factors that put Maradona, Platini, Xavi, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Kaka, Cruyff among the greatest does not matter and has the same importance as beating offside traps or heading
Let me know what super skills Ronaldo possesses over Maradona, Pele, Xavi, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Cruyff other than total number of goals? Heading and beating offside traps? That will definitely put hundreds of other players above Maradona, Platini, Cruyff etc
Who hurt you Juventus fan? who hurt you?
Man United with Ronaldo lost 4-1 to Watford, had historically the biggest drubbing from Liverpool in United history, and was such a tactical liability they had to bench him against Chelsea, only to concede as soon as Ronaldo stepped onto the pitch. All of this was in the same season. With the highest wages in the history of the EPL.
See how dumb you sound with this logic?
Messi was bad against Real Madrid. Nothing new to be honest, the last time he had a good game against Real Madrid was half a decade ago . There are at least (I'm being generous here) three better/more important players than him in PSG (Verrati, Mbape and Marquinhos).He can still produce moments of magic from time to time, but PSG wouldn't miss a beat if he was to miss the rest of the season.
. There are at least (I'm being generous here) three better/more important players than him in PSG (Verrati, Mbape and Marquinhos).He can still produce moments of magic from time to time, but PSG wouldn't miss a beat if he was to miss the rest of the season.