Nobody cares about Maradonna's stint at Sevilla or Pele at the New York cosmos. Or Cryuff's 1st retirement and his stint in the mls. And before Messi and Ronaldo these 3 were most commonly considered the greatest ever.
Lionel Messi | PSG Watch
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Maybe in the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t matter much. But given how toxic the discussion have been over past decades, I doubt people wouldn’t bring this up a lot in future.
For example, people perception on him is no longer “perfect”. It like when Mourinho started to do badly for us and Spur, people no longer hold him to highest regard with their perception of him, even though everyone knew he was still one of greatest during his peak/overall career, but you can’t disregard some sort of “damage” has also been done to his legacy.
It’s very normal most players would have declined when they are approaching mid 30s. But for Messi case, it’s abit unfortunate he began his rapid decline during his very first move/test outside of his Barca comfort zone, where there have been doubts beforehand, thanks to Ronaldo comparison.
Barca is not a comfort zone. They've had more great attacking players than any other club in the world and he is the best of them all.
I can remember Scholes and Ferdinand talking about how they know all about pressure when they played for United but saying it was nothing compared to the pressure Messi and Ronaldo were under. They were both expected to score a goal a game consistently every season which is mental. I don't see the biggest clubs in the world as comfort zones. Someone like Brian Laudrup couldn't handle the pressure of big clubs as well as his big brother Michael so he settled himself at rangers even though clubs like Barcelona wanted him.
Isn’t it 10 goals in all comps, 3 goals in the league for him this year?
Not getting into the GOAT debate but I expected more from arguably the best player of all time. Maradona would have destroyed at PSG, possibly even a certain CR7 also…
Not getting into the GOAT debate but I expected more from arguably the best player of all time. Maradona would have destroyed at PSG, possibly even a certain CR7 also…
It’s not meant as comfort zone to the challenge of trophies and competing in demanding environment. But it’s more of comfort zone to the type of football/system/environment he is familiar with throughout his career, which means he doesn’t have to go through all the adaption process he is facing in France.
Maradona was way past his best at 34. Messi's assist contribution and contribution as a playmaker is respectable but his lack of goals we can all agree has been incredibly poor.
9 goals in all competitions to be exact.
Ibrahimovic has scored 50 goals in France with PSG when he was at same age.
Was completely outshined by Messi at Barca though when they played together. Zlatans longevity is legendary though. I think Messi being consistently being considered as the best or shared best in the world for well over a decade is longevity too.
But by the same token, no one would claim that Ibrahimovic is or ever has been a better player than Messi, which kind of defeats your point.
Who isn’t?
Apparently Xavi and Iniesta going by some posters.
Fairly clear at this stage he was a fraud being carried by superior players in Barcelona
if anyone actually bites for this then they really need help
if anyone actually bites for this then they really need help
I don’t think peak Messi or Ronaldo is separable. They’re both possibly the greatest Individual players at their peak, maybe chuck maradona in there as well at his peak. It’s the longevity and ability to reinvent themselves that makes the best players of all time. It’s difficult to make a case for Messi at the moment when he’s only been able to do it, and do it very, very well, at a Barcelona that was built around him in every way, and had amazing players behind him.
It really doesn't. Maradona's Hand of God shirt just sold for £7m. He was basically finished by age 30. The more I look at it, the more I'm convinced that longevity is not the key thing. It's important for contemporaries, but not posterity.
Messi has reinvented himself quite a lot over his career. At 20 he was on average beating 9 players pr. game. Then he became a freak goalscorer on top of his dribbling and passing ability. Later he became one of the best freekick specialists ever as well as one of the best playmakers in the world whilst he was still a freak goalscorer. He's never just been the same player throughout his prime or youth. I'm not getting into Ronaldo as this is not the Messi vs Ronaldo thread. And Ronaldinho at his peak thought a 18 year old Messi was better than him. Inter tried to buy an 18 year old Messi for 150 mil euros which was mental money at the time, obviously scouts could spot his freak talent before this whole carried by Xavi and iniesta bollocks started. Messi was class before he became the crown jewel of Barca which he earned.
Its funny that you use reinventing yourself and longevity as the metric as the best ever because neither Pelé or Maradonna ticks this box and they were considered the best ever before this generation.
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It's silly that you phrase that like it's silly.
It's more that it's repeated indefinitely that Messi wouldn't be the player he was without those 2, while he scored 51 goals and took up the playmaking duties the season after iniesta retired and had one of his better seasons whilst having more creative duty as well as the duty to score and won the Ballon D'or. Obviously Xavi and Iniesta were brilliant enough to outshine Messi on occasions.
aaah ok now I see what you mean.
And I agree with that =)
Each of them has been the very best around in his position for a very long time, and none of them needed the others around to be who he was
Can they really be considered among the best midfielders ever though when they didn't keep going untill they were almost 40? Never moved outside their comfort zones either. Well apart from Japan and the Middle East.
Now do assists, Messi’s xg on the season is just at 7 goals on the season, so clearly he is playing further away from goal and the team isn’t built around him like it is for Ronaldo who is constantly fed in attack and is the first option
I love how people only look at goals when 25% of Ronaldo’s goals were against Norwich.
and for the record, yes, Ronaldo has had a better season than Messi but the fact that united would most likely have zero issues with letting Ronaldo go elsewhere Speaks volumes
What amazing team are you talking about? Barca between 2019-2021 was a mediocre team that did not include players like Xavi, Iniesta and Neymar managed by mediocre managers like Valverde, Koeman. Yet, Messi won Ballon D'ors, Golden Shoe, Pichichis, best playmaker, CL top goal scorer awards with ease without top players.
If anything, Ronaldo's experience showed he could only win things when surrounded by top stars. Real with aging stars literally made it to the CL finals yesterday without him whereas Barca could not even succeed in Europe League. The guy was exposed big time after Real, zero Ballon D'or worthy season, no individual major award, no Ballon D'or. Golden shoes..
Ronaldo and Messi are not comparable as frequently said Ronaldo does not have the playmaking, dribbling, technique, creativity of Messi. He can only match Messi in terms of goal scoring, yet Messi has more Golden Shoes..
I think he’ll get 15 goals and 15 assists. I think if Poch stays he’ll do a better job of using Messi.
Could we please keep Ronaldo out of this thread. Mods could open the thread specifically for it.
Sure..
Messi is in his mid 30’s stop comparing him to his peak. He’s done everything already bar winning the World Cup. Nobody cares what he does at PSG in reality. It doesn’t affect his status in the game one bit considering you judge a player at his peak for ability not 10 years down the line.
Maradona in his mid 30’s wouldn’t have been tearing it up for anyone. Ibra would maybe Totti but not many others and they weren’t half the players Messi used to be at any stage.
Last time I checked I didn’t see peak Maradona tearing up the Camp Nou like Messi did at any point even in his later career there and that’s a fact.
It's been quite a shocking season for him. I mean sure it's not like he dropped a single level in his performance here, he's pretty much dropped down from peak levels to bang average levels.
However in personally willing to give him a pass since it's the first time he's ever had to adapt to something truly new for a prolonged period. If he performs similarly next season its completely fair that questions being raised about how much of his prior success relied on the comfort zone.
Maradona at 34 played 5 games for Newell's Old Boys, in fact he only scored 13 club goals in total after the age of 32... meanwhile Messi won the Copa America upon turning 34 after scoring 38 goals for Barcelona in the previous season. Whatever happens from now on, Messi's 30s have been light years better than Maradona's.
He'll be 35 next season. I think it's fair enough to point out he's actually been in decline since he was 32 which Real Madrid supporters have noticed. It's just that even a declining Messi was still a contender for best in the world however you cannot not take his age into consideration. I'm not giving him a free pass for being bang average this season, but this not like a 24 year old Messi changing clubs. It's Messi at the end of his career. He said himself he never expected to win the Ballon D'or again after 2019 which means he's aware of toll of age on his performances.
For sure, but the 34 of today is not the 34 of yesteryear when there was no sports science and injuries had very much ruined the best players at that point
Everyone is different. People age at different rates and there is the whole business of injuries. Someone like Stanley Matthews who was also fouled all the time because he was a incredible dribbler played till he was 50. Even with advanced sports science everyone simply can't keep going at the same rate despite their dedication.
Maradona ruined himself though really, doesn't matter what era it is. Bobby Charlton was 9 years older than George Best but they were both done around the same age, because Charlton looked after himself and Best didn't and that was the 1960s. Today, Wayne Rooney is a manager and Ronaldo is still scoring goals regularly in the PL, despite being older than Rooney. There's not much from Maradona's personality and lifestyle that I feel would be that different to the modern era, in fact with even greater riches at a younger age, he might have phoned it in even earlier on drugs and overeating.
It's a testament to his talent and longetivity that people think he should be bossing it at 35. That's the age a lot of players pack it in. He had been olaying at a very high level since age 18. Been among the best players in the world since age 19. That's 16/17 years at the very highest level.
Football is also far more physical than it was back then. Comparison doesn't really make sense to me.
That's not true actually, some of the Normal defending of then would get you immediately sent of now.
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Disingenuous take (as expected by you). Ronaldo has been playing in significantly worse teams than Messi since he left Real Madrid (yes your precious Juventus were diabolical while he was there and was kept afloat mostly by him).
Yes, Messi has managed to win those awards without Xavi & Iniesta but surely you can’t be flexing last years Ballon D’or that he didn’t deserve. He has also been on the end of the most humiliating defeats since the departure of those players (against Bayern & Liverpool) and did nothing against Real Madrid in the 4 years since Iniesta left Barca (0 goals & 0 assists). He’s also almost 3 years younger than Ronaldo.
And Messi was doing that from the comfort of the club he had been at his entire career. The instant he left that zone, he wasn’t the same player. Coincidence? Hmmm.
FFS I know people are just replying to what other people post but this isnt the Messi vs Ronaldo thread.
I completely missed the vs thread had been closed. Why? I mean, it was clear the discussion will just conquer other threads then
The legitimate answers are here
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/why-was-the-messi-vs-ronaldo-thread-locked.470085/