Not in top3 for ballon dor. Still funny :-)
Lionel Messi
- Thread starter Scarecrow
- Start date
By definition it is ridiculous to use team performances as a criterion for individual quality. You are not doing it directly but the participation in the knockout stages is highly dependant on your team's quality, so at the very least it affects your rating indirectly. Ronaldo could be the exact same player but if he played for a weak team he wouldn't have achieved anything in the last three years.
But yes, there are obviously a lot of people who think that way. If you ask me, this is just being lazy as they only apply these criteria in this particular debate. If I'd argue that Keylor Navas or whoever was a better goal keeper than De Gea in the past five years because he had better performances in the late CL stages, you would also call that idiotic because obviously this logic has many flaws.
So yeah, I don't really care how many goals they scored from the semis onwards. I rate their abilities and the impact they have for their teams and Messi is just a prodigy in these regards.
When people think this way, though, it's completely lacking in logic.
You cannot cite trophies won as evidence that one player is better than another, in a sport in which not only are there 22 players on the field, but also squads of 22 players are increasingly critical. There are too many factors over which the individual player has no control, or even influence.
Ronaldo won the Champions League last season despite not playing particularly well in the semi-finals or final (which Messi didn't have the opportunity to play in). If Liverpool's keeper hadn't had a stinker and Bale hadn't scored a wonderful goal, Ronaldo very well might not have won the Champions League. Would this have made him a worse player? Obviously not.
Such is the absurd emphasis on winning the Champions League, Messi is now apparently not one of the best three players in the world! According to UEFA, Luka Modric is a better player than Messi. Modric is a very fine player, but even his mum doesn't think he's better than Messi! He's scored 3 goals in the last 2 seasons, and only 13 in his Real Madrid career, from his playmaking role, while Messi has scored 106 in his last 112 appearances in his playmaking role. And I have absolutely no doubt that Modric's key contributions have been considerably less than Messi as well, while he obviously can't dribble like Messi (no-one can).
Messi has scored more free-kicks in the 2018 calendar year than Modric has scored total goals since 2014! Yet UEFA deem Modric to be better than Messi. We are to understand that Messi, because Barcelona did not win the Champions League, is not one of the best three players in the world, and not as good as Modric.
The guy played an absolute f*cking blinder for Barcelona last season, being decisive in match after match, making passes, assists, dribbles, goals, free-kicks, he was unbelievable. But because Barcelona didn't win the Champions League, he now suddenly becomes a lesser player.
This is the idiocy of the age we're living in.
Are you really gonna compare Modric's role to Messi's and simplify it down to "playmaking role?"
Messi does the same amount of top quality passes in a single game than most top midfielders do in month (or more), all the while scoring a hattrick.
That was such an "Elite" performance. His all round game is as good as it's ever been.
I do admire people who claim Messi isn't the best player they've ever seen. It's the type of fighting spirit needed in every successful forum.
Hes just so good at football its mind boggling. His passing is unreal yet he does it with such ease and consistency. Must admit i do miss the younger more selfish aggressive version circa 2010-2013. The one who played futher forward and drove toward goal more. He used to dribble past so many teams with ease and much more frequently than now. Even with the gradual slowing down his intelligence has increased. You run out of superlatives for this guy.
Zlatan said it perfectly for me -
Messi is the greatest player because he is natural. Whilst C. Ronaldo is hard work.
To me - that's why I find C. Ronaldo better - he wasn't just born with the ability that messi had with his low centre of gravity- worked harder & it has shown in the different leagues & he international stage.
I'm no way calling messi lazy - just that C. Ronaldo is the type of player I'd want my kid to idolise - Messi may play more beautiful type of football but Ronaldo vs Messi is science vs Religion to me.
I never get involved in this messi vs ronaldo debate and neither should this thread be derailed onto it. However, this one sentence is the one that has rung in my head conclusively for the past 5-6 years. I love it.
Show me anything that Modric does better than Messi.Are you really gonna compare Modric's role to Messi's and simplify it down to "playmaking role?"
Messi is a better passer. Messi creates more chances. Messi has better control. Messi is a better dribbler. Messi beats far more players. Messi is a better free-kick taker. Messi scores far more goals.
That applies to every other player on the planet as well, except Ronaldo has scored marginally more goals over the last couple of years because he plays as a pure poacher (yet is still compared to Messi, and people somehow think it's legitimate to point out that he scored slightly more goals than Messi, despite the fact that Messi plays far deeper).
How could anyone possibly consider Modric to be the superior player? It's literally laughable.
I'd want my kid to have a brain, and recognise that Messi is the superior footballer. Not only that, but superior in virtually every department. The only attributes in which Ronaldo is superior to Messi are physical ones, such as strength. In every attribute related to the ball, Messi is better, and in several he is palpably better.
Even Ronaldo's son recognises that!
Simply the best.
No questioning Cristiano’s mentality, but the bit about Messi’s smaller stature giving him a low center of gravity which gives him an advantage goes both ways. Cristiano has a physique that allows him to do things Messi can’t (like a towering header or a more powerful shot from distance, etc.) and vice versa.
Either way, both were supremely talented, but everyone knows talent only gets you so far. How many “next Messi/Ronaldo’s” do we hear about who fade into oblivion, meaning they displayed similar ability at a certain age, but for whatever reasons couldn’t fulfill their potential when they had all the ability. What’s clear is both have put in the work to get where they are and have used their god given abilities to their full potential for their and our benefit.
2:11The pass at 3:26
Perfectly weighted, through such a narrow gap, perfectly placed.Very impressive how he has mastered free kicks in the last 2-3 years.
Pretty much at Beckham levels now. You just expect him to score.
Pretty much at Beckham levels now. You just expect him to score.
Exactly this. The notion he's better than Messi is just pure fairy tale stuff so the religion v science thing is spot on.
I see your point, but feel that it would be difficult for my kid to live normally after developing a Narcissistic personality disorder.
He has been built for and with Barca. His teammates in Argentina are also crap.
Messi is a once in a lifetime genius. He is no longer the player he was in his prime but is still so effective. He doesn’t dribble like the way he used to but his passing and playmaking skills add another dimension to the game. The fact that he still goes and scores all these goals on top of everything else is just mind boggling. Ofcourse, the Barca team is tailored to enhance his talents but when you have a gem like him, it would be a crime not to do so.
Exactly. Looks like some journalists got carried away with the hype of other players. He was the reason why Barca won La Liga.
People take his performances for granted (same with Ronaldo), we will not see players at this level for some time. Mbappe has a real shot but it would take immense performances at the highest level for +10 years and so many trophies to do so.
Back to Messi, im in awe of him tbh the way he plays in attack amazes me I try to catch as many Barcelona games as I can just to watch him.
Back to Messi, im in awe of him tbh the way he plays in attack amazes me I try to catch as many Barcelona games as I can just to watch him.
That may have a lot to do with the incredible bottle job he was involved in against Roma.
It's the good old terrible team mates argument again.Aguero, Dybala, Di Maria and co, such terrible players.
Never change @Cal?
I have not mentioned the best player in the world even once in this thread, just discussing Messi like this thread is supposedly for.
If you know he's the best player, why do you always have to argue with others who don't share your view ? Insecure much ?
I haven't argued about that at all in this thread, merely pointing out the incredible flaws in posts above, such as "Messi didn't get to play in the CL SF or final".
That has everything to do with him losing in the QF year after year, no?
But it all goes back to the same point, it's always the same thing.
That thing being the Messi fans overlooking all his flaws (eg the recent CL QFs) and just drool about him?
Ffs does everything have to turn i to a Messi vs Ronaldo debate?!
Aside from his goal scoring prowess, his eye for an assist, the through balls, and his freekicks truly look effortless. I love our CR7, but Messi is truly the best player of this generation.
Just like you do with your player, why does it bother you if some think Messi is the best ?
Just watched his goals, his second goal was just so good. It's like he is playing the game in easy mode and slow motion. Just passed the ball to the net.
Brilliant player, don't think we will see such a player again (at least in my life time).
Brilliant player, don't think we will see such a player again (at least in my life time).
I have not mentioned the better player even once in this thread, so don't blame me if it turns into just that.
It's called having an opinion, just like having an even bigger issue with those who think Trump is a good president.
You're right to voice your opinion but you're a bit of a broken record is all.
The other side is not? He's the bestest ever ever, makes thing look so easy, yada yada
No more Ronaldo mentions or comparisons here please — in any context, use this thread instead: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/messi-v-ronaldo.400526/page-325
Rule violators will be harshly dealt with!
Rule violators will be harshly dealt with!
Noooooo!