Unbelievable composure on the ball. His passing from the back sends chills down my spine.
6
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 45
- Clean sheets
- 20
- Goals
- 1
- Assists
- 0
- Yellow cards
- 10
- Status
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Go have a look at the early Bailly threads, or even on Maguire and Lindelöf too, and you’ll see a lot of what turned out to be hyperbole too.
We’ve been here many times before with centre backs since Ferguson left. They come in, look really promising, people maintain we are sorted for the next decade, then they don’t kick on, our defence remains leaky and we take some real pastings, before familiarity breeds contempt.
Regardless, I hope Martinez becomes a serial winner here and plays 500 matches for us. There’s a lot to like in a player who is so relaxed on the ball, whilst being so tenacious in the tackle.
Fans can get carried away about their own players but not one of those centre backs you mention ever got the sort of acclaim from neutrals/pundits that Martinez has been getting this season.
The Bailly one lasted like one month due to injuries, and he didn't recover from that. How is that the same thing?
Edit: I misremembered according to his threads. It was mostly the 2nd season where he was injured and putting in lots of bad performances. His first season was good albeit with some injuries mixed in. Around March to April, people started noticing his deficiencies being more of a regularity. Then got injured again.
We were right about him at the time though. We had seen lots of Smalling, Phil Jones, and Rojo, and he was better than Jones and Rojo. Smalling had a great season at his best, but Bailly was the start of us demanding a better ball playing CB after witnessing LVG and the shift to a more possession based side that was gaining more and more influence around Europe.
Now that we have seen Martinez, I don't see how his season isn't better than Bailly's. He's already more composed, and better on the ball when comparing to Bailly's first season. Bailly was the more flying physical type, and in that first season was able to make lots of tackles with that, but it does show that he relied on it more than Martinez who we have noted is more composed, despite being aggressive when needed.
Like how Bailly was an improvement of our previous CBs (when not injured), we've seen Maguire and Lindelof. Maguire at his best is not near Martinez. So if Bailly was an improvement in our eyes, were we all that wrong when comparing this new guy in Bailly to our more tenured CBs? I wouldn't say so.
Edit: I misremembered according to his threads. It was mostly the 2nd season where he was injured and putting in lots of bad performances. His first season was good albeit with some injuries mixed in. Around March to April, people started noticing his deficiencies being more of a regularity. Then got injured again.
We were right about him at the time though. We had seen lots of Smalling, Phil Jones, and Rojo, and he was better than Jones and Rojo. Smalling had a great season at his best, but Bailly was the start of us demanding a better ball playing CB after witnessing LVG and the shift to a more possession based side that was gaining more and more influence around Europe.
Now that we have seen Martinez, I don't see how his season isn't better than Bailly's. He's already more composed, and better on the ball when comparing to Bailly's first season. Bailly was the more flying physical type, and in that first season was able to make lots of tackles with that, but it does show that he relied on it more than Martinez who we have noted is more composed, despite being aggressive when needed.
Like how Bailly was an improvement of our previous CBs (when not injured), we've seen Maguire and Lindelof. Maguire at his best is not near Martinez. So if Bailly was an improvement in our eyes, were we all that wrong when comparing this new guy in Bailly to our more tenured CBs? I wouldn't say so.
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I kind of agree on Bailly, I certainly thought he looked the real deal, perhaps with him injuries took their toll but even then there’s been times when he’s been fit and played outstandingly well in my opinion and still been dropped by managers the next game.
Perhaps with Bailly there’s something I missed that managers didn’t but aside from Bailly, Maguire looked a steady defender that we could build around, Lindelof I just never saw anything in him at all. Martinez is sensational in my opinion.
Was incredible last night. Pure class on the ball.
Bailly? Maybe for about 2 months. Maguire? You have to be kidding me? A large portion of our fanbase didn't want him and thought Leicester fecking rinsed us. He's always had a weird fan club, but by-and-large, he's always been a realitivly divisive figure. Lindelof? Nah, no one ever rated him near to the level of Martinez.
Martinez is getting universal acclaim from the media, oppo fans, pundits etc. This is totally different territory.
A big improvement from the weekend's match. Started a bit nervous like everybody else, I guess, but grew into it quickly. I also think Betis suited him much better than Liverpool.
Regarding the discussion around @TMDaines comments.There is no point in being a bully or an arse towards someone because of different opinions.
I personally find @TMDaines comments refreshing as the most critical that is acceptable to write in this thread is "best of a bad bunch" or "unlucky to slip in the wet grass".
I don’t see how it is so controversial to believe that be called world class, best defender in the PL, single handedly transformer of our defense, etc-- it should at least to some extent carry over to our defensive results, and that 34 conceded goals in 20 matches is not a transformation.
Others may think it is great and a transformation of our defence, and that’s fine too, but at least accept that everybody doesn't agree with that.
Personally I think we play football with a much clearer idea this season than before and I am so grateful for that. Martinez fits that idea and is one of the enablers, but defensively I think it must also show in the result.
edit: Bailly was different. He started great and results were also good in the sense that we conceded few goals. But already then you could see his flaws, his poor positioning, poor decision making, his randomness.
Regarding the discussion around @TMDaines comments.There is no point in being a bully or an arse towards someone because of different opinions.
I personally find @TMDaines comments refreshing as the most critical that is acceptable to write in this thread is "best of a bad bunch" or "unlucky to slip in the wet grass".
I don’t see how it is so controversial to believe that be called world class, best defender in the PL, single handedly transformer of our defense, etc-- it should at least to some extent carry over to our defensive results, and that 34 conceded goals in 20 matches is not a transformation.
Others may think it is great and a transformation of our defence, and that’s fine too, but at least accept that everybody doesn't agree with that.
Personally I think we play football with a much clearer idea this season than before and I am so grateful for that. Martinez fits that idea and is one of the enablers, but defensively I think it must also show in the result.
edit: Bailly was different. He started great and results were also good in the sense that we conceded few goals. But already then you could see his flaws, his poor positioning, poor decision making, his randomness.
Any chance he’s played a part in the fact we’ve kept 19 clean sheets this season and he’s played 90 mins in 14 of those.
Last season we kept 10 clean sheets all season.
Try and pin the blame on Martinez all you want, but 50% of the goals we have conceded in the league this season have come in just 3 games. Outside of those three freak results our defence has been excellent.
We have proven this season that we struggle to play with Maguire, whilst Lindelof is possibly the most meh defender I’ve ever seen at united. I literally couldn’t tell you what he does defensively well.
It's not controversial to think he isn't world class but anyone who thinks he isn't level above Maguire and Lindelof should just give up football.
He shits on Maguire and the non defender Lindelof from great height, it's laughable to think it's even close and it has nothing to do with bullying.
Bit mean
Lindelof and defender shouldn't be used in same sentence.
Bit mean
Again that’s not what he’s getting pulled up on and no one said that.
People have taken issue with the remark that Martinez has done nothing to show he’s above Maguire and Lindelof as a defender and really the statement is ridiculous. The World Cup highlighted his superiority even more.
It’s not bullying either and I’m pretty sure the poster knew he was going to get the response he has done before he posted it.
If you’re going to nail your colours to the mast on something like that then have the shoulders to take the inevitable criticism that follows.
Medal in the pocket aside, Martinez “highlighted his superiority” during Maguire’s excellent World Cup?
Yes let’s put aside he actually won the bloody World Cup..
Yeah OK… as long as you’ll then entertain the Spurs and City fans who will tell you Otamendi and Romero are better defenders for actually playing most of that tournament to get Martinez and the other squad players their medals.
Not sure I pinned the blame on him, but I don’t see how our defence has made a fantastic transformation when I’m looking at the all the goals we concede.
I also don’t understand the talk about “freak” results. If you remove all matches where you concede heaps of goals, yes, then your stats will look better.
Don’t really get this aggressive hate towards United players.
It’s not bullying to post counter arguments. But several other posts are bullying.
Honest answer. Do you think Maguire is better than Martinez?
This save is the best made by the argentinian defense during the WC
I’m of the opinion you reap what you sow. His argument was Lindelof and Maguire are the same level as Martinez because United have conceded X amount of goals this season.
Its such a ridiculous argument it won’t invite and interesting or detailed discussion. It is weak and genuinely suggests an ulterior motive for posting in my opinion.
I think @TMDaines enjoys the controversy tbh and he will have fully expected a backlash when he posted.
Each to their own though!
Agreed. If there was a position called ‘passive’
How often does any club find that 50% of their goals conceded have come in three games when we are 25 games into a season? I’d say the 22 games are the mean and the 3 the outlier. We are on the path to becoming a very good side and the axis of Varane Martinez and Casemiro are the main reason for it. Lindelof and Maguire have expired but could be ok squad players that we can hopefully upgrade on over time.
Licha will undoubtedly have rough patches, as any of our great Centre backs have had but I don't think his adulation is at all hyperbole. With composure combined with the natural aggressive nature he has when he crosses the line I think he is the real deal. Injuries aside, with any luck, he's going to go down as a great. And when he gets on a bit and starts using his head even more than he already does so well, he will be delightful
Bailly was good for the first few months and a lot of people were giving Maguire plaudits and saying we failed to win in Europe as he was missing. Didnt agree at all but there was hyperbold.
I actually thought Bailly looked promising if it wasnt for the injuries and brain farts, he was ability wise at the time the best centre back we had.
Agree thoug none have got the plaudits of Martinez. I think he could be the best signing we have made post Ferguson, love him.....BUT....it is still too early for judge. Has been a number of players and managers who have looked good and done well in there first season here.
I do sense something different with some of the people here now even though there is a long way to go....but think of Mourinho and SOlkjears finishing second, whole host of players who looked good in there first few months and havent kept it up.
I think there are some great personalities here now in the dressing room, I think there are some really good young talents that arent even playing barely Mainoo, Pellestri should be getting the opportunities like Garnacho, Hannibal and perhaps AMad on loan....but again
Mourinho, Ibrahimovic, Pogba, McTominay, Tuanzabe
Solkjear Maguire, Fernandes, Garner, Greenwood, Williams
We have been here before and its been a false dawn twice.
Personally bar Ibra, Greenwood and to a lesser degree Tuanzabe, never really saw the adulation in the others, though I bought into Solkjear for a period of time.
I am definately buying into Martinez and Ten Hag so far and Casemeiro bar the age and I do rate Antony though he has a logn way to go....but again, lets start judging these players after a couple of seasons....but the signs are promising and a good couple of quality additions and a couple of compeititve additions to the squad and the signs do look genuinely positive
His calmness and composure on the ball is a breath of fresh air. It is only a matter of time before he will gets seen internationally as one of the worlds best defenders.
@TMDaines @A-man
I think there's a lot of people here, who have very sensible views and probably mostly agree on several things:
1) Has Martinez done enough to be labelled world class at this moment? No.
2) Has he been helped and protected by Casemiro, who has been arguably our single biggest contributor to our form this year? Yes.
3) Do a lot find him categorically better than Maguire and Lindelof? Yes.
4) Do a lot think he has been a massive contributor to us defensively? Yes.
5) Has he improved us defensively by a lot? Yes.
The first two points, I'm sure you will both agree on. It's the latter three that you both seem to have issue with or welcome further discussion on. It can be seen in your very specific language 'this team suits Martinez', 'he's been an enabler', 'I struggle to see how he's better period', using goals conceded stat and ignoring clean sheets etc, which to people who have rated Martinez, comes across as somewhat backhanded and strange when we feel he has been a massive influence. Therefore, let's be transparent with less subjective 'discussion' and use a very simple score based system. It's not perfect of course but it can help us all understand where we all stand.
There's no need to interpret what does a 6 or 10 means to you or me because we will be rating 4 players, so your rating of each player can be your own system. I also know very well, this is oversimplified and you can add so much more context with a sentence or two but I'd rather we didn't have to write essays on the nuances. For example, I think Maguire is actually usually good when an attacker is back to goal and trying to pin or turn him in close proximity but he's very bad in open space/transition so the 'ability to stop attacks/players' is rated on both ends of the likely scenarios in a match. Feel free to suggest other categories; it may be a good template to use for other players. Hm, maybe I should start a new thread..
Martinez - rating on this season with Casemiro
1 vs 1 duels: 7.5
Defensive positions off the ball/reading of the game: 8
Aerially: 7.5
Passing: 9
Ability to stop attacks/players i.e proactively and covering: 7.5
General influence and effectiveness on the pitch: 8
Varane - ignoring last season and rating on this season with Casemiro
1 vs 1 duels: 7.5
Defensive positions off the ball/reading of the game: 9
Aerially: 9
Passing: 7
Ability to stop attacks/players i.e proactively and covering: 7.5
General influence and effectiveness on the pitch: 8
Maguire - ignoring last season and rating between his best season against the other seasons
1 vs 1 duels: 6.5
Defensive positions off the ball/reading of the game: 7
Aerially: 9
Passing: 6.5
Ability to stop attacks/players i.e proactively and covering: 6.5
Generally influence and effectiveness on the pitch: 7
Lindelof - ignoring last season and rating between his best season against the other seasons
1 vs 1 duels: 6
Defensive positions off the ball/reading of the game: 7
Aerially: 6.5
Passing: 6.5
Ability to stop attacks/players i.e proactively and covering: 6.5
Generally influence and effectiveness on the pitch: 6.5
Casemiro is a massive outlier and I agree he makes a big difference to my rating of Varane and Martinez's this season but I'm intrigued to see how you would still rate everyone even with that factored in. The way I see it, is even if I took a massive 1 off Martinez's score on each category, he is still tangibly above Maguire and Lindelof fundamentally speaking.
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I think you have irrational hatred towards Martinez, that's why you think he is no better than Lindelof and Maguire.
That was at the end of Maguire's second season, which is actually the only period he's had here where he was playing very well. He basically spent his first 18 months being very inconsistent, then 6 months of actually great form, 12 months of extremely bad, then this season where he's been inconsistent again at best but hasn't played that much. Martinez has already been far more consistent than Maguire has ever been.
Same with Bailly, who never put more than a couple of good months together before either getting injured or starting to look incredibly shaky with his decision making.
There is some overrating of Martinez in here (he still needs to do it for longer), but I'd say comparing him to Maguire, Lindelof or Bailly is underrating him to an even larger extent.
Yes it’s very poor to concede 4 or more goals in one half in 3 games in such a short time. But statistically, the results are not outliers. If you look back we have matches like that every season, it’s just that we normally don’t collapse so often as this season. Last season was 0-5 against Liverpool and the season before 1-6 against Spurs.
Varane and Martinez have not been so significant as a CB pair.more like indivuals. They have, as mentioned before, only played in 5 of our 25 last victories. (now it is 6 after the last win). In the other 20 wins we have had another CB pair. They started well together with some wins but I do think they have looked less solid lately.(esp varane)
Sorry for not following your format, but anyways,,,
Martinez strengths and weaknesses for me are:
Best parts (7 and up)
Good and composed with the ball at his feet. Doesn’t stress (although wish everybody at the back would speed up at times to keep intensity high). Rarely makes mistakes where he loses the ball and rarely puts his team mates in a difficult situation because of a poor pass .
Good passing.
Good at winning back the ball high up to keep intensity.
Good at last minute blocks.
Executing ETH’s tactics
His tackling is good but feel he is sometimes overcommitted.
Weaknesses (5.5 and below)
One weaknesses is he sometimes overcommits, goes high up but can’t win the ball and there is a hole opened up behind him. That’s why he should always play with covering CBs like Varane and Lindelof, never Maguire. This is about decision making and I expect that to be improved.
He is below average in the air for a CB.
He is not fast (although not slow, however his way of playing would benefit from some speed).
Then he has some features that are good enough (6/10) but dont make him stick out, positioning as example.
Then I think he has improved on one weakness I saw early in the season. He seemed pretty unaware of runs behind his back, but that has improved imo and is no longer a weakness.
When it comes to mental aspects, it is really hard to evaluate. He seems tough on the pitch in many situations, however at the same time he’s been involved in 3 totally collapsed halves in just 20 PL games where many players seemed to check out when things went bad.
Shortly about the other CBs
Varane’s strengths are his positions, decision making and reading of the game. Those aspects are 10/10. He is the best covering CB in the world imo. He is also good in the air. He is generally good with the ball but can break under pressure.
He is not good at pushing high and winning back balls on the ground. You can see that he is asked to do that but it doesn’t come natural and he is often overplayed.I also think he clears too many balls to throw in instead of controlling them, but that’s really a small issue
I think he has looked a little on the decline in the last matches. Might be fatigue.
Lindelofs problem has always been that he can’t switch on his aggressiveness. His strengths are positions and decision making. He seem to have improved his aerial capacity a lot this season and we also saw improvement in his aggressiveness in some matches. He is good with the ball and the best we have when it comes to long balls in to the box which he can hit with both feet, but he could improve his speed when they play the back. Good at transporting the ball forward but does it too seldom. Poor at last second blocks and tackles, good at steering opponent out to weak positions. He is tactically good and can adapt to ETH system. Lindelof is reliable as third CB as he can often perform at least a 6/10 even after two weeks without playing matches. In many ways I would say Lindelof is the same type of player as Varane just not as good.
Maguire just doesn’t fit at all and he seems to struggle to adapt to the tactics. His best attribute is his aerial dominance in the box and higher up. He is however often caught out, overcommits and makes costly mistakes. He has a great pass down to the left side winger. He is very poor in 1v1. That said, he could be a great CB in many other PL clubs and I think he would benefit a move. I am not a Maguire hater, I thought he was our best or second best player 2020/21, but he has declined plus doesn’t fit the way we play.
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Honestly, there's not a lot I disagree there, although I would have a different take on some things e.g Martinez's aerially ability being below average. I made several posts in this thread last week or so but basically:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/lisandro-martínez-2022-23-performances.471684/page-145#post-30232397
TLDR: Effectiveness and 'winning' a stat, although related can be two very different things.
Anyways I wanted a numerical figure so it's more concrete to understand and juxtapose what you actually mean and on what basis. For example, in the past, you've claimed Martinez's passing was nothing special and equal to Lindelof/Maguire, he was not a good progressive passer or had showed it enough and you've diminished his performances with comments like 'he played against a team that suited him'. And just now, you've also claimed although Martinez is composed on the ball, he is part of the defence that should move the ball faster, something we've never heard you say when it came to Lindelof and how it was McFred being the issue.
Based on your comments above, it seems to me you rate Lindelof as a 6.5 player and Martinez around 7.5 or just a 7 overall (tbh the score doesn't matter, it's the difference)? It sure feels like the criticisms and standards you hold someone like Martinez too, however, is that their skills and abilities overlap and there's not that big of a difference in their performances...
Please use my template or even your own categories but use a number. It would be interesting to see.
5.5 or below for those attributes is absolute nonsense Graeme.
As for Lindelof, only having one weakness….you say that it’s aggression. If I could only go with one weakness I’d have to go with defending, or football. Martinez is so much better at every aspect of passing the ball, just because Lindelof has played a handful of passes over the years that have reached an attacker doesn’t make him Ronald Koeman.
I know stats are not everything,but it is not irrelevant either and have always been used in this forum as a measure of aerial capacity.
Martinez has among the worst aerial stats in the league. I think it is fair to say he is below average in the air.
Anyways, it would be very interesting to hear what weaknesses you believe Martinez has. It sounds as you think he is 100% complete bit maybe you can dig deep and find something.
I will try to come back with ratings later, don’t have the time right now.
If you think 5.5 for speed is “absolute nonsense” I assume you believe Martinez is very fast, maybe a 7 or even an 8. This I find absolute nonsense.
But it would be really interesting to hear your opinion as well. What are his weaknesses in your opinion?
I would put ‘very fast’ at 8 out of 10 or above. I would put Maguire at 5.5 or below. I’d put Martinez at 7.
I find it interesting that you want to focus on Martinez’s weaknesses yet can only find room for one weakness with Lindelof. Martinez’s strengths far outweigh his weaker areas, for example his timing means he wins most of his aerial duals and the rest of his game is so good, I just wouldn’t bother mentioning them. Similar with players like Keane, Becks or Scholes for example. Why would you want to talk about weaknesses when they are absolutely brilliant.
It’s different when talking about bang average players with no redeeming qualities
Man Utd 0:0 Southampton
Totally imperious today.
impeccable.
This guy is regal.
Giant
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