But ...but... Cannavaro.... who btw made his debut in 1991.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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Agreed - in that moment his lack of height was an issue but everything leading to that 3rd goal (including him having to take on TWO Burnley players on our goal line) had little to do with Martinez.
Surely you exaggerate when you said symbol of failure. What about a third option? Neither a genius move nor a symbol of failure but a bridging step to a complete team?
Nobody is talking about Lukaku being Tuchel's symbol of failure, Klopp and the OG Pep Guardiola is my idol signed a lot of duds at the beginning and nobody was talking about any of the signings as their symbol of failure. Even with an unlimited budget, Pep took 2 years to get it right at Man City.
I have a feeling you are using Martinez to pick on ETH. Good manager doesn't always get it right but they learn from their mistakes and adapt to the new environment. ETH is the best pick we got. Did Pep not do his due d before he came to the Premier League? He too was shocked and had to adapt. It is just 2 games, give Martinez and ETH a chance man.
Getting signings right for us is important, being prudent with money is very important to us. More so because our management. We tend to overspend on targets late in the window because we wasted so much time haggling a fee on primary targets. We limit our transfer kitty by wanting too much for players with high wages - which we almost always end up with 0 by letting them all walk away for free.
Liverpool or Chelsea and heck maybe even Spurs would have signed, ditched 2-3 players by the time we manage to sell Bailey, Jones, AWB.
I think he wasn't the best choice nor the highest priority that needed to be addressed. Nearly £50million for a midget CB is a huge risk. It was a poor decision and naivety on ETH's part.
I hope we play Varane + Maguire/Lindelöf next game and try Martinez as a CDM, i mean it can get more ugly then the 2 last games.
It's not about height not mattering, it's that you can't write off someone based on that before he's even played, and then just twist performances to suit that narrative. I'm sure most people arguing his case would happily agree that he would be better off if he was taller, but the main point is that it's not conclusive that he can't succeed in the PL at his height, yet people seem happy to state as such, just because they've decided it will be so.
You need to be physical (or taller), fast/mobile (with good lateral movement) and technical a CB to be in the PL, especially the top 6-8 teams.
Nothing is set in stone, and there is no proof that Martinez can't succeed in the league with the proper players around him. In time, whatever deficiencies his size provide could be dwarfed by his positive impact on our play. Nobody knows how it will turn out at the moment, so what is the point in slating him over his first 2 games in a new and much stronger league, where he wasn't even that bad?
Let's hope so before his confidence gets broken after being abused and bullied game after game.
Brentford boss Thomas Frank admits targeting Manchester United defender in 4-0 win
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Probably right as in it is a high risk signing. But I think he will learn from it same as what Pep and Klopp went through.
I just don't think ETH has as much time as say Pep whose club's expectations are much lower. And Klopp who's fans are more loyal and forgiving to their players & managers.
These two issues actually went hand in hand.
Brentford negated our pressing game. Remember those times Klopp condemning team playing long ball and break his gengenpressing plan?
Our inability to intercept, win aerial ball allowed Brentford to move their players up the pitch in formation and counter press us! Then you have issue with decision making in possession under pressure.
Brentford did take their foot off the pedal in the second half to some extend. However, it's no coincidence with Varane and McTominay in the second half, we're better equipped and more comfortable to deal with their direct long ball both in the air, and the second ball bouncing on the ground.
Edit: Aerial ability is not only dealing crosses into the box. It's also about the ability to stop opposition to move players into our half and set up formation for pressing. Pressing beside the attack element is a tactic to defend on front foot. Even without mistake leading to the goals, Brentford pretty much defends well. So in another word, our gameplan is trashed.
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this. absolutely this
If you want the best team, you have to get players with the best possible ability or/and athleticism. Every detail counts in the EPL, competing against Pool and City. Martinez might do much better in other leagues or at a different time in the EPL. And CB is not the position to hide a player with a possible major weakness that the other team might target.
It does not mean he is a shit player, and I like how he battles and how quickly he can pass. However, he is definitely not a Canavero either. IMO, ETH subbed him for an entirely different reason— to avoid our defense outrun by their counter attacks—which is another big issue that he added to our backline. It just does not look like a good sign for us at this point.
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Then we are really doom to fail. As I said, even Pep with unlimited budget needs 2 years. Klopp with proven track record needs sometime to get it right. There are exceptions to be fair like Conte or Ancelotti who can seemingly make instant incremental improvements. ETH is more similar to Pep and Klopp as in they need time to mold the team to play in a way that they want. Isn't that's the reason we hire ETH over Conte?
Thank you for posting this. It gives a very good explanation as to why the aerial duals stat is flawed. Even with a bunch of great examples. There were some instances here that I missed during the game. You can't view this and say that his height/physicality is not a problem.
The expectations at Man City are way higher than here. Our club is happy to finish 4th. In Pep's first season with them, he finished 3rd. I think most United fans would be pretty damn happy with that at this point. Liverpool fans had been used to failure for a long time. United fans between 20-40ish have been used to the team having consistent success. This is the first time we've experienced something like this. I'd say the fans have been relatively patient. The patience has definitely almost ran out. Especially when the same players that have continuously failed us are getting played and new players aren't being bought in the positions that we need.
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Hopefully he becomes a solid DM for us.
I'd play Maguire Varane CB and Martinez and Fred as DM's against Liverpool and try and frustrate them. If we play as openly as the first two games it's going to be 5 again.
Can we send him to Russia for a leg lengthening procedure? He would be out for the season but he would gain a few inches and this season is a write off anyway.
I agree. But judging from the fan reactions here, they are expecting a messiah, a saviour or a failure.
Its binary with them. To suggest that he walks after the Liverpool game or get the sack by October is crazy talk.
You can analyse and criticise a manager without it being all or nothing. There is too much anxiety going on -- there is no patience to wait a couple of seasons.
Imagine next week when we lose to the Scousers? 3 losses in a row -- worst start to a season ever? The pressure on ETH for the Southampton game will be enormous. United fans will be losing their minds.
The opposite for me. I'm 5'8" and recognise how much of a hindrance his height is in that position. I also agree that he doesn't appear to be 5'9".
Secure man.
I'm 5'10" on tinder though
He’s a good footballer but would be more suited to CDM / LB for now. He’s just going to get targeted at CB. In home games, if you were really dominant he’d be great to watch at CB, but you are in the shit just now and he’d probably be more useful breaking things up in midfield.
ETH walked through the door and in one of his first press conferences said this team finished 2nd a year ago. He's already told the fans that he can do better with what he has. Can you blame the fans for not expecting to lose 0-4 against Brentford and be bottom of the league after 2 games? It'll be 3 after Liverpool are done with us.
He has to work with what he has. He can't keep getting thrashed and expect the fans to accept that. Losing is one thing. Getting humiliated is another. The team has been humiliated too many times over the last year.
I'm not saying he should be sacked, but I am saying that he needs to stop the team getting thrashed.
Lindelof, taller or not, gets bullied far more than Martinez would. I'd like to try a back 3 of Martinez, Varane and Bailly. In this league pace as a CB is as important as height (certainly if you're playing a high line) hence Maguire needs to be taken out.
Nobody notices an inch or twoI'm 5'10" on tinder though
Call it what it is.He ain't gonna make it as a centre back for us.Midfield or left back,but we already forked out for a new LB so that only leaves midfield.Either way looks like we overpaid yet again on an area that was least of our priorities and that's on the manager.Early days for sure but so far ETH appears to be making some questionable calls.I think Martinez looks a sound player,just not CB in this league.
I don't think him being targeted aerially is the issue. The bigger issue is the players around him not winning the secondary balls that get pumped in his direction. He could win 100% of his aerial duels but if the teammates around him don't win the ball that bounces off of his head, its moot.
He's not a magician either. This first year is about to get the pieces together to build a foundation. Mistakes will be made. Lessons will be learnt.
Whether or not we want to be pc about this issue, Martinez's lack of height is a factor. He has been targeted specifically over the last two games and rightfully so. It's a simple tactic but if it can get results for the likes of Danny Welbeck, imagine what the likes of Nunes and Haaland might do.
I don't think that this is an issue just with Martinez, this is an issue throughout the whole team. There is a massive lack of physicality throughout the whole team, starting with the goalkeeper and it is particularly evident in midfield. We get bullied any time someone puts it up to us. We have very few players who get stuck in. Our leader, the one who is capable of getting stuck in, gets targeted by the smaller technical players who gemerally run rings around him because of his lack of mobility.
Some teams like City can get away with having a lack of physicality if they are that technically gifted that they have so much possession of the ball. 3 to 4 players is enough to get by. We don't have the quality of players. We have so many players who can be easily pushed off the ball and dispossessed. The much publicised stats from the Brentford match emphasise the lack of effort we put in physically compared to other teams. This is nothing new. Weren't we bottom of the league last season for the same thing?
The targeting of Martinez will continue to happen. I fear that this is the transfer that may come back to haunt ETH. It is his big transfer. He needs to get it right.
I don't know what the answer is. It may get a lot worse before it gets better.
I don't think that this is an issue just with Martinez, this is an issue throughout the whole team. There is a massive lack of physicality throughout the whole team, starting with the goalkeeper and it is particularly evident in midfield. We get bullied any time someone puts it up to us. We have very few players who get stuck in. Our leader, the one who is capable of getting stuck in, gets targeted by the smaller technical players who gemerally run rings around him because of his lack of mobility.
Some teams like City can get away with having a lack of physicality if they are that technically gifted that they have so much possession of the ball. 3 to 4 players is enough to get by. We don't have the quality of players. We have so many players who can be easily pushed off the ball and dispossessed. The much publicised stats from the Brentford match emphasise the lack of effort we put in physically compared to other teams. This is nothing new. Weren't we bottom of the league last season for the same thing?
The targeting of Martinez will continue to happen. I fear that this is the transfer that may come back to haunt ETH. It is his big transfer. He needs to get it right.
I don't know what the answer is. It may get a lot worse before it gets better.
I don't know what everyone keeps citing Cannavaro as an example. He was an anomaly. He was probably one of the world's best defenders ever. Martinez is not Cannavaro.
100% agree
Plus he played in a different league and one that isnt known for its physicality and speed.
You could also cite someone like Mascherano, who very much wasn't one of the best defenders ever, but nonetheless succeeded playing at centre-back for Barca. And that without Martinez' advantage of actually having been a CB throughout his career.
Which is a more relevant example because in that case and this, it works because of the system they're in rather than the player themselves. In the same way if Martinez was stepping into this City side there'd also be no issue. But as is we haven't even begun adapting to that way of playing yet, so.... *shrugs*
Maybe ETH can adopt a tactic that will make Martinez's lack of physicality a factor, I hope he does.
Mascherano played as a cb and he was class to be fair. But it was in La Liga. The PL is far more physical. He also played in a team that generally had about 70% possession in every game. It helps. I doubt he would have been as good playing cb for the likes of Sociedad or Zaragoza.
The PL is a different kettle of fish to the Eredivisie. Maybe it'll work out. I just can't see how at the moment, but I don't know 0.01% of what ETH does so...
and what do both Cannavaro and Mascherano have in common?….
neither played CB in the PL.
name me a single top tier CB who has cut it in the PL under 6ft?
i can only think of Thiago Silva. And he is a smidge under 6ft…. And plays mainly in a back 3.
even Klopp and Pep have both spoken about the importance of physically tall and strong players in key defensive roles, moving away from player types that they would have had in other leagues. It’s why they brought in Rodri and Fabinho.
look… I get the urge to want to give this lad time. We all should. But it isn’t controversial to say paying 60m for a 5ft 9in CB from the Dutch league is a risky, if not completely naive plan.
ten Hag typically plays a direct, possession based game. A player like Martinez would be key in a side that actually plays like that. He's going to need more than just Eriksen coming in, though.
And obvs for Mascherano, I mean he didn’t play CB in the prem. (now edited)
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