[sglowrider]

and what do both Cannavaro and Mascherano have in common?….

neither played in the PL.

name me a single top tier CB who has cut it in the PL under 6ft?

i can only think of Thiago Silva. And he is a smidge under 6ft…. And plays mainly in a back 3.

even Klopp and Pep have both spoken about the importance of physically tall and strong players in key defensive roles, moving away from player types that they would have had in other leagues. It’s why they brought in Rodri and Fabinho.

look… I get the urge to want to give this lad time. We all should. But it isn’t controversial to say paying 60m for a 5ft 9in CB from the Dutch league is a risky, if not completely naive plan.

Ben White at 5ft 10. Arteta got him for his ball playing ability.
But it seems he has been moved to be a RB this season

 

[A-man]

It hasn't been next level passing, but he's completely different to the other CBs we have, because he releases the ball quickly.

If Maguire et al had the brain power to just play a pass without spending so much time on it(be it an incisive pass, or a sideways one), we would see a lot less of these pressurised situations at the back.

I can see he definitely has the ability to pass the ball quickly, but I don’t agree we have seen much of it so far. Just checked a YouTube video with all his passes vs Brighton and it was mostly slowly walking with the ball, without any urgency, similar to Maguire. But I guess it is not so useful for him to pass the ball fast if the players around him take forever to release the ball.

These two issues actually went hand in hand.

Brentford negated our pressing game. Remember those times Klopp condemning team playing long ball and break his gengenpressing plan?

Our inability to intercept, win aerial ball allowed Brentford to move their players up the pitch in formation and counter press us! Then you have issue with decision making in possession under pressure.

Brentford did take their foot off the pedal in the second half to some extend. However, it's no coincidence with Varane and McTominay in the second half, we're better equipped and more comfortable to deal with their direct long ball both in the air, and the second ball bouncing on the ground.

Edit: Aerial ability is not only dealing crosses into the box. It's also about the ability to stop opposition to move players into our half and set up formation for pressing. Pressing beside the attack element is a tactic to defend on front foot. Even without mistake leading to the goals, Brentford pretty much defends well. So in another word, our gameplan is trashed.

Great post and I agree. If we look at Liverpools central defence they are very dominant in the air. When Liverpool start their intense press from the attacking players, it should not be easy to just hoof your way out. This is critical for the way they play.

 

[Name Changed]

ten Hag typically plays a direct, possession based game. A player like Martinez would be key in a side that actually plays like that. He's going to need more than just Eriksen coming in, though.

Well as I said previously I do think it is an issue throughout the team. I'm not trying to single out Martinez by any means. I just think it may be the one ETH lives or dies by. He needs to get this one right.

 

[sammyhol]

Ben White at 5ft 10. Arteta got him for his ball playing ability.
But it seems he has been moved to be a RB this season

i would say Ben White has got a long way to go before being considered a top PL CB…

but look at the list of those who were:

vidic
Ferdinand
Stam
Pallister
Bruce
Terry
Carvalho
Campbell
Adams
King
Kompany
Van Dijk

big lads

 

[redcucumber]

i would say Ben White has got a long way to go before being considered a top PL CB…

but look at the list of those who were:

vidic
Ferdinand
Stam
Pallister
Bruce
Terry
Carvalho
Campbell
Adams
King
Kompany
Van Dijk

big lads

Carvalho wasn't a big lad. Only a few centimetres taller than our Martinez.

 

[sammyhol]

Carvalho wasn't a big lad. Only a few centimetres taller than our Martinez.

he was still 6ft.

as was Bruce… and they are the shortest on the list. And might I add playing alongside all time greats…. And behind world beating defensive midfielders.

5ft 9in is really bloody short for a CB. It’s a couple of inches taller than the likes of Messi.

 

[zenith]

ETH has built a reputation for himself only because he stands by on his beliefs and abilities. Martinez as CB will go a long way before he realizes that it won't work

 

[sglowrider]

i would say Ben White has got a long way to go before being considered a top PL CB…

but look at the list of those who were:

vidic
Ferdinand
Stam
Pallister
Bruce
Terry
Carvalho
Campbell
Adams
King
Kompany
Van Dijk

big lads

You missed out Desailly and Kompany, two mighty midgets

 

[MrBest]

i think he would make a good DM, CB is not his position in this league. Its a shame because we spent 55m on a CB and I cannot see it working out. This again leaves Maguire and Varane at the back.

 

[sullydnl]

Maybe ETH can adopt a tactic that will make Martinez's lack of physicality a factor, I hope he does.

Mascherano played as a cb and he was class to be fair. But it was in La Liga. The PL is far more physical. He also played in a team that generally had about 70% possession in every game. It helps. I doubt he would have been as good playing cb for the likes of Sociedad or Zaragoza.

The PL is a different kettle of fish to the Eredivisie. Maybe it'll work out. I just can't see how at the moment, but I don't know 0.01% of what ETH does so...

Just mentioned it another thread but there was a piece in The Athletic talking about Martinez' height and how Ajax organised around it. It noted that when playing against someone like Haaland one of the midfielders dropped deep to offer additional aerial protection. Meanwhile Martinez took up very aggressive positions in possession, basically rotating with one of the midfielders who dropped deeper.

I say that in the context of us trying to sign 6ft 2 Rabiot, who was 93rd-95th percentile among midfielders for aerial duel success rate over the last two years.

It may be that's how we'd intend to deal with Martinez being targeted tactically by a player like Toney going forward, with Rabiot dropping deeper to crowd out and nulify that long-ball threat from goal kicks etc.

Also you mention the possession Barca (and also sides like City and Ajax) have but that's presumably the plan for us too. Even in our disastrous two first games we had 63% and 67% possession. As opposed to the corresponding fixtures last season, where we had 50% and 56%. So even in these early stages we can see that shift towards more possession beginning.

It's also worth bearing in mind that at Ajax Martinez was surrounded on either side by a 5ft 10 CB and a 5ft 11 LB. Which tells us two things.

First, that while there is a step up in physicality in moving to the PL, Martinez is also being supported by a corresponding step up in physicality in those around him, now instead being supported by a 6ft 4 CB and a 6ft 1 LB.

And second, the fact that Ajax had the best defensive record in the league with that extreme a lack of height in defence highlights the extent to which their system protected them in that regard. Because while that league has less physicality overall, the average size of the players in the league is still bigger than in the PL and the opponents they faced would be more than capable of exploiting that smaller defence if the system wasn't functioning.

 

[JuriM]

Just mentioned it another thread but there was a piece in The Athletic talking about Martinez' height and how Ajax organised around it. It noted that when playing against someone like Haaland one of the midfielders dropped deep to offer additional aerial protection. Meanwhile Martinez took up very aggressive positions in possession, basically rotating with one of the midfielders who dropped deeper.

I say that in the context of us trying to sign 6ft 2 Rabiot, who was 93rd-95th percentile among midfielders for aerial duel success rate over the last two years.

It may be that's how we'd intend to deal with Martinez being targeted tactically by a player like Toney going forward, with Rabiot dropping deeper to crowd out and nulify that long-ball threat from goal kicks etc.

Also you mention the possession Barca (and also sides like City and Ajax) have but that's presumably the plan for us too. Even in our disastrous two first games we had 63% and 67% possession. As opposed to the corresponding fixtures last season, where we had 50% and 56%. So even in these early stages we can see that shift towards more possession beginning.

It's also worth bearing in mind that at Ajax Martinez was surrounded on either side by a 5ft 10 CB and a 5ft 11 LB. Which tells us two things.

First, that while there is a step up in physicality in moving to the PL, Martinez is also being supported by a corresponding step up in physicality in those around him, now instead being supported by a 6ft 4 CB and a 6ft 1 LB.

And second, the fact that Ajax had the best defensive record in the league with that extreme a lack of height in defence highlights the extent to which their system protected them in that regard. Because while that league has less physicality overall, the average size of the players in the league is still bigger than in the PL and the opponents they faced would be more than capable of exploiting that smaller defence if the system wasn't functioning.

Absolute brilliant post and I would give you a like if I could. Finally someone with enough clear head.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

i think he would make a good DM, CB is not his position in this league. Its a shame because we spent 55m on a CB and I cannot see it working out. This again leaves Maguire and Varane at the back.

You cannot see it working out two games in, when of the 6 goals conceded, he is to blame for 1 of them. Not to mention he has come in to a team that was getting battered 4-0 by the likes of Brighton last season, without him in the team.

Yet you can't see it working out for him when he has barely don't much wrong, needs to settle into a new league, while playing in a dysfunctional team.

Some of our fans are the worst, writing players off 2 games into their career. It's embarrassing to be honest.

 

[Name Changed]

Just mentioned it another thread but there was a piece in The Athletic talking about Martinez' height and how Ajax organised around it. It noted that when playing against someone like Haaland one of the midfielders dropped deep to offer additional aerial protection. Meanwhile Martinez took up very aggressive positions in possession, basically rotating with one of the midfielders who dropped deeper.

I say that in the context of us trying to sign 6ft 2 Rabiot, who was 93rd-95th percentile among midfielders for aerial duel success rate over the last two years.

It may be that's how we'd intend to deal with Martinez being targeted tactically by a player like Toney going forward, with Rabiot dropping deeper to crowd out and nulify that long-ball threat from goal kicks etc.

Also you mention the possession Barca (and also sides like City and Ajax) have but that's presumably the plan for us too. Even in our disastrous two first games we had 63% and 67% possession. As opposed to the corresponding fixtures last season, where we had 50% and 56%. So even in these early stages we can see that shift towards more possession beginning.

It's also worth bearing in mind that at Ajax Martinez was surrounded on either side by a 5ft 10 CB and a 5ft 11 LB. Which tells us two things.

First, that while there is a step up in physicality in moving to the PL, Martinez is also being supported by a corresponding step up in physicality in those around him, now instead being supported by a 6ft 4 CB and a 6ft 1 LB.

And second, the fact that Ajax had the best defensive record in the league with that extreme a lack of height in defence highlights the extent to which their system protected them in that regard. Because while that league has less physicality overall, the average size of the players in the league is still bigger than in the PL and the opponents they faced would be more than capable of exploiting that smaller defence if the system wasn't functioning.

Excellent post. It'll be interesting to see what tactic ETH employs so.

 

[Dominos]

It's not about height not mattering, it's that you can't write off someone based on that before he's even played, and then just twist performances to suit that narrative. I'm sure most people arguing his case would happily agree that he would be better off if he was taller, but the main point is that it's not conclusive that he can't succeed in the PL at his height, yet people seem happy to state as such, just because they've decided it will be so.

I go back to my original point, near enough everyone would be willing to write him off if he was listed as 5ft6 or 5ft7 so they're hypocrites in that sense. People are just having a slight disagreement over where the cut-off height requirement should be.

It's not about writing anyone off anyway. He could be a success. But the club's job is to use logic and rational thought to choose players who have the highest chance of being a success.

Given that centre backs have the tallest average height of all outfield players, and given no Premier league side regularly starts with a 5ft9 centre back in a back 4 suggests to me we've picked a player with low statistical odds of being a success. We spent a lot of money hoping for an extreme outlier, which doesn't seem very smart.

 

[sullydnl]

I also think people are also too rigid in how they think formations apply here.

For example, Chelsea have or were willing to operate with not just one but multiple relatively short defenders in defence. Silva, Azpilicueta, Ake, Kounde, etc all either used or targeted.

At which point people would typically say "well you can get away with that in a back three, not a back four". Except that ignores the fact that a fullback can tuck in at any point to effectively make it a back three anyway.

In other words these formations are dynamic and a lot of the protection/support different positions get depends not on the on-paper shape but how the various parts interact with each other. If we think Martinez can work in a back three then we think he can work full stop, it's only a question of ensuring he has adequate support in whatever shape we provide it. There are tweaks and alterations to be made as we go along, even without on-paper formation changes, we just need to give it time.

 

[Borys]

I go back to my original point, near enough everyone would be willing to write him off if he was listed as 5ft6 or 5ft7 so they're hypocrites in that sense. People are just having a slight disagreement over where the cut-off height requirement should be.

It's not about writing anyone off anyway. He could be a success. But the club's job is to use logic and rational thought to choose players who have the highest chance of being a success.

Given that centre backs have the tallest average height of all outfield players, and given no Premier league side regularly starts with a 5ft9 centre back in a back 4 suggests to me we've picked a player with low statistical odds of being a success. We spent a lot of money hoping for an extreme outlier, which doesn't seem very smart.

Exactly, and it kind of makes sense if we know we will get a big DM who will cover for Martinez. But it still seems like we have a few puzzles and try to fit them into one picture.

Even if we get a DM, Rabiot or whoever, it still will be a big gamble to have Martinez in defense, and at this point I don't think he is that much better on the ball than Lindelof would've been in a team with the right structure. Time will tell, hard to judge after those two games.

 

[Skills]

I also think people are also too rigid in how they think formations apply here.

For example, Chelsea have or were willing to operate with not just one but multiple relatively short defenders in defence. Silva, Azpilicueta, Ake, Kounde, etc all either used or targeted.

At which point people would typically say "well you can get away with that in a back three, not a back four". Except that ignores the fact that a fullback can tuck in at any point to effectively make it a back three anyway.

In other words these formations are dynamic and a lot of the protection/support different positions get depends not on the on-paper shape but how the various parts interact with each other. There are tweaks and alterations to be made as we go along, we just need to give it time.

Tbf this also applies to FDJ. I'd imagine, De Jon would the midfielder who gets the ball from the defenders in the first phase of the transition. But once the ball is in the opposition half, it would Rabiot or another midfielder who's actually holding the position in front of the CBs.

 

[redcucumber]

Just mentioned it another thread but there was a piece in The Athletic talking about Martinez' height and how Ajax organised around it. It noted that when playing against someone like Haaland one of the midfielders dropped deep to offer additional aerial protection. Meanwhile Martinez took up very aggressive positions in possession, basically rotating with one of the midfielders who dropped deeper.

I say that in the context of us trying to sign 6ft 2 Rabiot, who was 93rd-95th percentile among midfielders for aerial duel success rate over the last two years.

It may be that's how we'd intend to deal with Martinez being targeted tactically by a player like Toney going forward, with Rabiot dropping deeper to crowd out and nulify that long-ball threat from goal kicks etc.

Also you mention the possession Barca (and also sides like City and Ajax) have but that's presumably the plan for us too. Even in our disastrous two first games we had 63% and 67% possession. As opposed to the corresponding fixtures last season, where we had 50% and 56%. So even in these early stages we can see that shift towards more possession beginning.

It's also worth bearing in mind that at Ajax Martinez was surrounded on either side by a 5ft 10 CB and a 5ft 11 LB. Which tells us two things.

First, that while there is a step up in physicality in moving to the PL, Martinez is also being supported by a corresponding step up in physicality in those around him, now instead being supported by a 6ft 4 CB and a 6ft 1 LB.

And second, the fact that Ajax had the best defensive record in the league with that extreme a lack of height in defence highlights the extent to which their system protected them in that regard. Because while that league has less physicality overall, the average size of the players in the league is still bigger than in the PL and the opponents they faced would be more than capable of exploiting that smaller defence if the system wasn't functioning.

Very interesting post, thanks @sullydnl. Certainly provides some insight into why we might be keen on bringing someone like Rabiot in.

 

[youmeletsfly]

I don't really get the fuss around his height. In the few cases where his physicality was dominated yesterday, he just fecked up his positioning. He didn't lose the duels just because he's 175 cm tall.

 

[sullydnl]

Tbf this also applies to FDJ. I'd imagine, De Jon would the midfielder who gets the ball from the defenders in the first phase of the transition. But once the ball is in the opposition half, it would Rabiot or another midfielder who's actually holding the position in front of the CBs.

Yep.

You see it in the FDJ thread when people struggle to describe how he'd fit in to our team using terms like "holding midfielder", "defensive midfielder", "#6" or whatever. They're struggling because they're trying to use simple short-hand terms to describe complicated roles that change depending on what's around them. And then they end up arguing about what those terms even mean in the first place.

Similarly with someone like TAA. People describe him sometimes as a defender who can't defend. But "defender" in that context is another short-hand term that describes a range of different roles and functions, some of them that involve a lot less actual defending than others or tending to occupy different parts or the pitch. In TAA's case it's functionally a playmaker role, whereas in someone like Kyle Walker's case the same supposed position has an entirely different purpose within the system.

 

[Born2Lose]

Really crappy move by EtH to take him off at half time, hope it doesn't affect his confidence. The biggest mistake was to just arrogantly drop him in last week instead of giving him time to bed in.

I remember Evra being written off as being too short too after his first game, time will tell.

 

[Betson]

I also worry about the height issue , this could turn out to be a really embarrassing signing for ETH given all the warnings before signing him.

But it is far too soon to be making a definite judgments on a player after two games.

Also there has been massive overreaction , we are talking as if he has cost us both games and he is the fault of multiple goals. That is just not the case.

 

[Mmm-Qatarian]

Honestly this is one area I am actually quite happy to criticize Ten Hag on. I know people were desperately trying to convince themselves that Martinez's lack of height wouldn't be a problem but it wasn't exactly difficult to foresee that there might be a bedding in period where he had to adapt and I believe Ten Hag has rather thrown him in at the deep end.

If you're asking what I would have done, my answer would be to start the season with Maguire and Varane as the centre back pairing and use the League Cup and Europa League (which, frankly, aren't massively important to me) to settle Martinez into the side.

 

[groovyalbert]

Honestly this is one area I am actually quite happy to criticize Ten Hag on. I know people were desperately trying to convince themselves that Martinez's lack of height wouldn't be a problem but it wasn't exactly difficult to foresee that there might be a bedding in period where he had to adapt and I believe Ten Hag has rather thrown him in at the deep end.

If you're asking what I would have done, my answer would be to start the season with Maguire and Varane as the centre back pairing and use the League Cup and Europa League (which, frankly, aren't massively important to me) to settle Martinez into the side.

In an ideal world, with a settled squad, that's what you do. Vidic had a similar into to English football.

But Maguire is dreadful, and none of our other CBs can stay fit. Also worth pointing out that despite the issues he's faced in our first 2 fixtures, I don't think he was as bad as Maguire, or other defenders.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

3rd goal aside, He didn't really do anything wrong. Unfortunately the narrative has already been set for him, and it will be tough for him to get away from it.

For perspective, Ivan Toney even came out after the game and said Lisandro was very physical and he thought that he done nothing wrong.

What I will say though, as a 5'9 guy myself, Lisandro isn't 5'9. I would think 5'7.5 to 5'8. The listing is pretty generous.

 

[sewey89]

Are we writing him off already?

 

[Dominos]

.

Honestly this is one area I am actually quite happy to criticize Ten Hag on. I know people were desperately trying to convince themselves that Martinez's lack of height wouldn't be a problem but it wasn't exactly difficult to foresee that there might be a bedding in period where he had to adapt and I believe Ten Hag has rather thrown him in at the deep end.

If you're asking what I would have done, my answer would be to start the season with Maguire and Varane as the centre back pairing and use the League Cup and Europa League (which, frankly, aren't massively important to me) to settle Martinez into the side.

I usually hate the Europa, but let's be honest it's our only chance of CL football next season. We need to win it.

These jokers aren't getting top 4.

 

[Dominos]

I remember Evra being written off as being too short too after his first game, time will tell.

Really not the same. Evra was a full back and is listed as 5ft8.5

You'll be able to find plenty of full backs playing their trade in the premier league at Evra's height but we can't do the same for centre backs.

 

[Mr PG]

Martinez passing from the back is one of the best I have ever seen from a cb. Honestly. In a few seasons Barcelona will kill for him and I’m not even joking. ETH is so thorough there’s no way he didn’t factor in his height along with Steve McLaren and the recruitment team.

 

[sullydnl]

Toney on Martinez:

“I was just trying to put my body about and get the better of him. To be fair to him, he was doing well. He was very aggressive for a centre-back. Sometimes he gets beat in the air but he was aggressive on the floor. I felt like it was 50-50. Like you said, it’s a compliment to me, him getting subbed off at half-time, whether it was because of me or if it was the style of play they wanted to go for.”

There's no question he was targeted aerially but individually he bore up as well as he realisitcally could in this regard, I think.

The question is and always has been to what extent you can nullify that threat with your system, as ETH successfully did at Ajax. But until the team as a whole starts playing better collectively or we get those tactical functions working (such as a midfielder successfully dropping deeper on goal kicks or whatever), Martinez is in for a rough ride.

 

[Hoof the ball]

Lil' Sandro Martinez

 

[Hughie77]

He's not the problem the problem came in the Brentford game from the GK 2 mistakes 2 goals. Then chasing the game to open way to open. 4th goal showed that 3rd was another cock up.
Let's just see where this team is after the window, and before it's stops for the world cup. Its been a dreadfull start let's just see how it goes what could go wrong did on Sat .

 

[ThatsGreat]

Ben White at 5ft 10. Arteta got him for his ball playing ability.
But it seems he has been moved to be a RB this season

Ben White is 6'1. Here he's standing with Edu who's 6'3. https://www.arsenal.com/news/welcome-ben-white-signs-long-term-contract.

 

[Nash27]

He was least of the problem. He dealt with most of the things well. For me, he showed composure and was decent. 3rd goal cant be on him solely.

 

[Kostov]

The question with this transfer was and still is for me, what does he bring to the team that warrants such a huge fee? I mean I don't think he was that bad on Saturday, but honestly what kind of improvement does he bring? He is good and steady on the ball, but we hardly lacked that at CB imo.

 

[Anustart89]

I think he’s handled himself okay so far. The notion that he’s been bullied due to his height is absolute nonsense. He may have been targeted but it’s hardly as if his lack of height has been more exposed than runs in behind Maguire which has been a tactic that every team has used against us for the past two years.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

I commented on him here only because Edu and Arteta wanted him in summer. He will probably play better in EPL if he switch to inverted LB, just like how Arteta planned to use him in arsenal(the current Zinchenko role). Every manager out there will look at the option to target Martinez as a CB and fight for the 2nd ball, if they have a tall and strong CF. I believe Zinchenko and Martinez is about the same height.

 

[#07]

The question with this transfer was and still is for me, what does he bring to the team that warrants such a huge fee? I mean I don't think he was that bad on Saturday, but honestly what kind of improvement does he bring? He is good and steady on the ball, but we hardly lacked that at CB imo.

If we had a world class Sporting Director they'd have asked this question before sanctioning the purchase.

This deal, much like the one we did for Donny Van de Beek, strikes me as Ajax pulling our pants down for a player they knew they could easily replace.

That doesn't say anything about Martinez or his quality. I think he's good in the tackle, his passing is crisp, he does a lot of good things. £50m things though? I'm not sure. I am also starting to wonder if his transition to English football would be easier playing as a #6 than at centre back.

 

[Kostov]

If we had a world class Sporting Director they'd have asked this question before sanctioning the purchase.

This deal, much like the one we did for Donny Van de Beek, strikes me as Ajax pulling our pants down for a player they knew they could easily replace.

That doesn't say anything about Martinez or his quality. I think he's good in the tackle, his passing is crisp, he does a lot of good things. £50m things though? I'm not sure. I am also starting to wonder if his transition to English football would be easier playing as a #6 than at centre back.

Someone put it very nicely couple of pages back, maybe he would have been a good addition to a an already stable team with a functioning midfield, now I think he is hang out to dry and even the expected difficult transition to english football is made even harder. I hope for his own sake that he is not thrown in for the Liverpool game, because fan backlash will be even bigger.

 

[Dominos]

The question with this transfer was and still is for me, what does he bring to the team that warrants such a huge fee? I mean I don't think he was that bad on Saturday, but honestly what kind of improvement does he bring? He is good and steady on the ball, but we hardly lacked that at CB imo.

Very interesting post, thanks @sullydnl. Certainly provides some insight into why we might be keen on bringing someone like Rabiot in.

The issue I have really is I'm not sure why we're overcomplicating things and to what benefit? We're trying to sign an aerially dominant midfielder and have him dropping deeper than usual to compensate for the lack of aerial dominance at centre back.

You know what every other team in the league has done instead? Signed centre backs who don't get targeted with aerial balls every game. That surely would have made more sense than spending £55m on a defender that has created a problem that wasn't there beforehand, and trying to compensate for said problem with further signings.

The logic of having a ball player at centre back only makes sense if short players have a monopoly on being good on the ball. They don't. By some miracle Liverpool managed to pass the ball out from defence without resorting to fielding 5ft9 centre backs, as have City, as have so many other teams.