[AjaxCunian]

Because more often than not he will be defending the middle of the box. He doesn’t get caught out as much with long balls from the goalkeeper due to his height, but if he’s in the middle dealing with targeted crosses to a tall CF it’s game over.

Get that, but we play 3 CB's and opponents usually have one striker, at maximum 2, couldn't the other CB take the taller striker depending which zone he occupies?

Technically Martinez could take the number 10, and the other CB's can act like a RCB and LCB like a 4 man's defense I'd think.

 

[Lu Tze]

Get that, but we play 3 CB's and opponents usually have one striker, at maximum 2, couldn't the other CB take the taller striker depending which zone he occupies?

Technically Martinez could take the number 10, and the other CB's can act like a RCB and LCB like a 4 man's defense I'd think.

And what about when the tall striker uses their agency and runs over to Martinez. Does he just run away from them as fast as possible in the other direction?

 

[AjaxCunian]

And what about when the tall striker uses their agency and runs over to Martinez. Does he just run away from them as fast as possible in the other direction?

He would have the same issue in a 4 man's defense right.. so don't see how it becomes different as a CCB in a 3 mans defense.

 

[Lu Tze]

He would have the same issue in a 4 man's defense right.. so don't see how it becomes different as a CCB in a 3 mans defense.

Yes, I don't think he is good enough defensively in either system. A few years ago pre-injuries, maybe, or in a Pep type system perhaps where you have a suffocating degree of control over the game.

But given the amount of aerial and running power we will face, and the number of duels that modern players get through, I just think he's not suited as a top level CB. Tremendous footballer though, if only his physical attributes were up to it.

 

[FriedClams]

Get that, but we play 3 CB's and opponents usually have one striker, at maximum 2, couldn't the other CB take the taller striker depending which zone he occupies?

Technically Martinez could take the number 10, and the other CB's can act like a RCB and LCB like a 4 man's defense I'd think.

If you’re a striker and you can go up against a guy who is 5’9, or a guy over 6 foot, who would you choose? The opposition striker would just peel onto Martinez every time, and if one of the other CB has to come and help out then it negates the structure of the formation. The CCB will always be taller good in the air. Martinez as LCB is just fine

 

[Ekeke]

He's probably our best defender at playing the ball from deep into the 10s and Sesko which should help a lot.

He's about twice as good as any of our other defenders at that. 98th percentile (7.07 per 90 mins) for progressive passes from CBs. De ligt 27th percentile, Maguire 39th percentile, Yoro 60th percentile, Mazraoui 77th percentile but that does include his stats from rightback/right wingback

 

[Ekeke]

Also the reality is that wherever Martinez is on the pitch, that is where the opposition will put their big, fast striker/winger, and they will target him all game either in the air or in behind for pace.

The idea that we can 'hide' him is for the birds. He either comes back surgically enhanced with robo-tendons, or he'll continue to struggle on the defensive end. The latter is more likely.

You say this like de Ligt and Maguire are faster. They arent. Lindelof and Evans werent either. So no they dont pull on to him to use pace

 

[Lu Tze]

You say this like de Ligt and Maguire are faster. They arent. Lindelof and Evans werent either. So no they dont pull on to him to use pace

I don't recall saying that? The main issue is aerial with Martinez, though his pace is a secondary issue. They can pull on to Martinez and target anything they want. At least with De Ligt and Maguire they can only target the channels, and everyone knows that. De Ligt is faster than Martinez once he gets going in any case.

I can get behind a fast smaller defender like Cannavaro or Puyol. But there has never been a slow small top level CB - at least in living memory. It's potentially feasible to carry a luxury right back, or a luxury AM. Nobody's ever carried a luxury CB.

 

[Ekeke]

I don't recall saying that? The main issue is aerial with Martinez, though his pace is a secondary issue. They can pull on to Martinez and target anything they want. At least with De Ligt and Maguire they can only target the channels, and everyone knows that. De Ligt is faster than Martinez once he gets going in any case.

I can get behind a fast smaller defender like Cannavaro or Puyol. But there has never been a slow small top level CB - at least in living memory. It's potentially feasible to carry a luxury right back, or a luxury AM. Nobody's ever carried a luxury CB.

Teams play differently at the back to the past and playing 3 at the back teams have used midfielders as the 3rd CB at times. So having an actual CB who passes better than a lot of those midfielders and is far better at defending is easily a better option.



While this video and this clip is clearly played at over 100% speed, the fact is Lisandro is gaining on and pressures Theo Walcott as he goes through. De Ligt wouldnt get near him. Lisandro is not at all slow

I dont know if the 36 km/h speed is correct, but if it is then its faster than Gittens, Hojlund, Frimpong, Coman and Garnacho last season.

 

[Lu Tze]

Teams play differently at the back to the past and playing 3 at the back teams have used midfielders as the 3rd CB at times. So having an actual CB who passes better than a lot of those midfielders and is far better at defending is easily a better option.



While this video and this clip is clearly played at over 100% speed, the fact is Lisandro is gaining on and pressures Theo Walcott as he goes through. De Ligt wouldnt get near him. Lisandro is not at all slow

With respect, this isn't the proof you think it is. A pre-crocked Martinez gaining on a 34 year old Walcott clumsily dribbling is not convincing.

Should I pull out the clip of De Ligt tackling Mbappe and claim he's incredibly rapid?

 

[Ekeke]

With respect, this isn't the proof you think it is. A pre-crocked Martinez gaining on a 34 year old Walcott clumsily dribbling is not convincing.

Should I pull out the clip of De Ligt tackling Mbappe and claim he's incredibly rapid?

If its faster than 36 km/h then yes

 

[Lu Tze]

If its faster than 36 km/h then yes

I don't get your point. Are you claiming that Martinez runs 36 kph?

But hey, here ya go, a far more convincing demo of pace against a massively faster player than ancient Walcott:

Note: still not claiming that De Ligt is rapid. But Martinez is slower for sure, especially post injury.

 

[Ekeke]

I don't get your point. Are you claiming that Martinez runs 36 kph?

But hey, here ya go, a far more convincing demo of pace against a massively faster player than ancient Walcott:

Note: still not claiming that De Ligt is rapid. But Martinez is slower for sure, especially post injury.

So De Ligt is a couple of yards ahead, Mbappe kicks the ball ahead and then doesnt get around his body. Thats nothing to do with speed and certainly not like accelerating on a Walcott who is through

Also

De Ligt was the joint 246th fastest player in the bundasliga 23/24 the season before he joined us. He's 32.81 km/h

 

[Lu Tze]

So De Ligt is a couple of yards ahead, Mbappe kicks the ball ahead and then doesnt get around his body. Thats nothing to do with speed and certainly not like accelerating on a Walcott who is through

Also

De Ligt was the joint 246th fastest player in the bundasliga 23/24 the season before he joined us. He's 32.81 km/h

I'm not gonna bother, it's really a nothing argument. If you feel that catching up to a decrepit Walcott who is bouncing the ball yards left and right as he dribbles is the same as keeping up with prime Mbappe, then let's agree to disagree.

Martinez has been roasted for pace on multiple occasions and will continue to be. I am sure De Ligt will be too. But at least he won't be continually targeted aerially at the same time. No manager that wants to keep their job will be playing Martinez for long in the PL, despite him being a wonderfully gifted technical passer.

 

[Ekeke]

I'm not gonna bother, it's really a nothing argument. If you feel that catching up to a decrepit Walcott who is bouncing the ball yards left and right as he dribbles is the same as keeping up with prime Mbappe, then let's agree to disagree.

Martinez has been roasted for pace on multiple occasions and will continue to be. I am sure De Ligt will be too. But at least he won't be continually targeted aerially at the same time. No manager that wants to keep their job will be playing Martinez for long in the PL, despite him being a wonderfully gifted technical passer.

He didnt keep up with Mbappe. Mbappe was 2 yards behind, didnt kick the ball very far and was outmuscled by De Ligt's frame where he didnt get beyond the side. If you cant tell the difference you are unqualified for this discussion.

Yes fast players have got away from Lisandro, just like they have got away from de Ligt. Lisandro isnt faster than attacking players known for being fast. He's just faster than de Ligt like tens of other CBs were in Germany

 

[Lu Tze]

He didnt keep up with Mbappe. Mbappe was 2 yards behind, didnt kick the ball very far and was outmuscled by De Ligt's frame where he didnt get beyond the side. If you cant tell the difference you are unqualified for this discussion.

Yes fast players have got away from Lisandro, just like they have got away from de Ligt. Lisandro isnt faster than attacking players known for being fast. He's just faster than de Ligt

Ok, I disagree. If you can't tell the pace disparity between a clumsily dribbling 34 year old Walcott trying to position for a shot and a prime Mbappe trying his level best to power around him, then you are equally disqualified.

 

[Lu Tze]

He didnt keep up with Mbappe. Mbappe was 2 yards behind, didnt kick the ball very far and was outmuscled by De Ligt's frame where he didnt get beyond the side. If you cant tell the difference you are unqualified for this discussion.

Yes fast players have got away from Lisandro, just like they have got away from de Ligt. Lisandro isnt faster than attacking players known for being fast. He's just faster than de Ligt like tens of other CBs were in Germany

Also, where on earth did you get 36 kph from? There is no universe in which Martinez is running 36 kph. Faster than Frimpong? Jeez. What a farce.

 

[Marwood]

You say this like de Ligt and Maguire are faster. They arent. Lindelof and Evans werent either. So no they dont pull on to him to use pace

I think the injury he's recovering from right now came about because of a lack of pace.

The forward gains 5 yards on him in the blink of an eye.

So he throws his body in the way to shield the ball and awkwardly lost balance.

It's an issue for sure when coupled with being small.

 

[Devil81]

I think the injury he's recovering from right now came about because of a lack of pace.

The forward gains 5 yards on him in the blink of an eye.

So he throws his body in the way to shield the ball and awkwardly lost balance.

It's an issue for sure when coupled with being small.

Personally think his size, he throws himself into dangerous tackles to compensate for the physicality differences.

Reality is you don't get many CB as small as Licha.

 

[Ekeke]

I think the injury he's recovering from right now came about because of a lack of pace.

The forward gains 5 yards on him in the blink of an eye.

So he throws his body in the way to shield the ball and awkwardly lost balance.

It's an issue for sure when coupled with being small.

Its normal defending for any CB to step across and use strength to stop a dribbler. Few are faster than the attackers like Van Der Ven, some are fast enough to keep up like Tah was 10th fastest in the same season De Ligt was 246th fastest. Its also how Lisandro took care of Adama Traore after he beat him the first time. You step across where they want to run and use strength. Its basic good defending



Lisandro has picked up too many injuries its true but its not because of how he defends. Its because of luck and his body. Any CB should do exactly what he did, even the fast ones because they can still be wrong and lose a foot race so why wouldnt you use the advantage you have? Its also less work than sprinting.

 

[Marwood]

Its normal defending for any CB to step across and use strength to stop a dribbler. Few are faster than the attackers like Van Der Ven, some are fast enough to keep up like Tah was 10th fastest in the same season De Ligt was 246th fastest. Its also how Lisandro took care of Adama Traore after he beat him the first time. You step across where they want to run and use strength. Its basic good defending



Lisandro has picked up too many injuries its true but its not because of how he defends. Its because of luck and his body. Any CB should do exactly what he did, even the fast ones because they can still be wrong and lose a foot race so why wouldnt you use the advantage you have? Its also less work than sprinting.

Know what you mean but you shouldn't need to do that when you have a 5 yard head start. Martinez is really struggling and doesn't just step across to use his body, he's desperate and throwing himself in there.

The defending in that scenario should have been comfortable. In that specific scenario I think De Ligt handles it in a straightforward fashion.

 

[AjaxCunian]

None of our CB's can do this, very few in the world can actually.

 

[Marwood]

None of our CB's can do this, very few in the world can actually.

True. He's awesome on the ball for a CB.

Essentially he's a CM who is too physically limited for the role. So he's become a CB.

 

[CMRobbo7]

This guy is a warrior…and also a quality footballer. If he comes back to the level he was at he can transform the team. Hes that good.

All the noise in this thread is just ego. I remember when we signed him, people saying he’s too small etc. By the end of his first season he was one of the best CB in the league.

After injuries and time out the same egos are back, wanting to be right from the start.

 

[Matt851]

This guy is a warrior…and also a quality footballer. If he comes back to the level he was at he can transform the team. Hes that good.

All the noise in this thread is just ego. I remember when we signed him, people saying he’s too small etc. By the end of his first season he was one of the best CB in the league.

After injuries and time out the same egos are back, wanting to be right from the start.

He is great on the ball but not great defensively particularly when playing out wide in a 3

 

[Ekeke]

He is great on the ball but not great defensively particularly when playing out wide in a 3

Nah its his ideal position. He's a good on the floor defender and gets the chance to show it there. He's dealt with players like Adama Traore

 

[andersj]

He's dealt with players like Adama Traore

Adama Traore is not a very good player. He is a squad player for Fulham.

I dont think Martinez is well suited to play with a high line against good teams. Both his top speed and his acceleration is waaay below average in the PL!

 

[Ekeke]

Adama Traore is not a very good player. He is a squad player for Fulham.

I dont think Martinez is well suited to play with a high line against good teams. Both his top speed and his acceleration is waaay below average in the PL!

My point is that he's a fast, strong player and Lisandro dealt directly against him using his strength to take the ball off him when he ran at him. If he was half as slow as people make out players like Adama Traore would kick and run every time they get the ball and be past him 5 times a match. Its not the case.

 

[golden_blunder]

He needs to come back and prove he’s not s hop along that’s gonna be out injured at every little niggle before we talk about how his passing or pace may be affected or not

 

[andersj]

My point is that he's a fast, strong player and Lisandro dealt directly against him using his strength to take the ball off him when he ran at him. If he was half as slow as people make out players like Adama Traore would kick and run every time they get the ball and be past him 5 times a match. Its not the case.

We did not play a high line and there was not much space to defend. The lack of pace in the spine of the team was part of the reason we hade huge space between central defence and midfield with EtH; central defenders not comfortable playing higher up and a central midfield instructed to press higher.

 

[Nobby style]

Adama Traore is not a very good player. He is a squad player for Fulham.

I dont think Martinez is well suited to play with a high line against good teams. Both his top speed and his acceleration is waaay below average in the PL!

Pep Guardiola: "Lisandro Martinez is top five centre-backs in the world"

He will be massive for us if he can stay healthy

 

[andersj]

Pep Guardiola: "Lisandro Martinez is top five centre-backs in the world"

He will be massive for us if he can stay healthy

Pep Guardiola: «Manchester United's Antonio Valencia is the best winger in the world right now»

 

[McGrathsipan]

When is he back fit ?

 

[The Hilton]

Adama Traore is not a very good player. He is a squad player for Fulham.

I dont think Martinez is well suited to play with a high line against good teams. Both his top speed and his acceleration is waaay below average in the PL!

Adama Traore is one of the best dribblers in the league, at times in his career he's been among the very best in the world. He's exceptional at beating players with the ball. In the past 4 seasons he's been 99th, 98th, 99th, and 99th percentile for successful dribbles in the PL.

He's limited in most other ways, no doubt, but Martinez being able to stand up to him 1 on 1 is definitely a mark in his favour.

 

[Mike Smalling]

When is he back fit ?

Some sources have him returning around end of October, but I'm not sure it's based on anything specific in terms of communication from the club.

 

[Borninthe80ts]

I’m sure he has played left back and in midfield for Ajax in the past and although not his natural positions I’ve no issue with him getting drawn wide or stepping into midfield when needed.

I’ve seen him nullify some of the best attackers around 1on1 and also marshal us to some impressive defensive performances.

Injuries may have affected him we shall see but there’s not doubting he has the qualities to positively effect the team. Similar to Shaw, he has to prove his fitness now, but on form his in my team.

Like to see him in the centre of the 3 at some point. Don’t think his height will be an issue if we play it right. There’s been prior example of defenders his height in back 3 and 4s.

 

[Ayoba]

3 seasons, and every season he's had a major injury. Let's hope he can remain injury free finally.

 

[Kinder Mbeumo]

He's the type of player that if Amorim utilises him well that can show that Amorim is growing as a manager.

If Amorim has no ability to be flexible with his formation, then he has to start being more versatile with his players to try to implement new tactics.

​

 

[BorisManUtd]

Adama Traore is one of the best dribblers in the league, at times in his career he's been among the very best in the world. He's exceptional at beating players with the ball. In the past 4 seasons he's been 99th, 98th, 99th, and 99th percentile for successful dribbles in the PL.

He's limited in most other ways, no doubt, but Martinez being able to stand up to him 1 on 1 is definitely a mark in his favour.

Still funny how he does nothing meaningful with it in the end. Funny player

 

[Nobby style]

Pep Guardiola: «Manchester United's Antonio Valencia is the best winger in the world right now»

No, that was Jose Mourinho. Or was Pep in agreement with Mourinho? Mebbe we could get your brilliant credentials, haha.