[Trigestis]

When I rise to power on this forum, it will be in instant permanent ban to suggest Martinez can play in midfield. It's so unfathomably dumb. FM logic.

What's unfathomably dumb is thinking players are incapable of being versatile, or featuring in different roles for different games. Do you not remember Ferguson and how he used his players? Pep?

No one is suggesting he plays there full time, but can you explain to me how it would be stupid to play him in midfield in a game where we play against a lowblock, dominate possession and struggle to break them down?

 

[Mike Smalling]

What's unfathomably dumb is thinking players are incapable of being versatile, or featuring in different roles for different games. Do you not remember Ferguson and how he used his players? Pep?

No one is suggesting he plays there full time, but can you explain to me how it would be stupid to play him in midfield in a game where we play against a lowblock, dominate possession and struggle to break them down?

Read any of my posts in the last page or two to see why I don't think he is fit to play midfield. The context of the game matters very little to me.

 

[Trigestis]

Read any of my posts in the last page or two to see why I don't think he is fit to play midfield. The context of the game matters very little to me.

I did and it doesn't make sense. We don't need a physical specimen with great mobility in midfield in a game we're trying to carve open a lowblock.

And the idea that he lacks the ball playing ability is as weird as it's wrong. His ball playing ability is better than most midfielders in PL, and he is one of the best in the world at passing through the lines. If anything, that should be the least worry about playing him in midfield.

 

[Mike Smalling]

I did and it doesn't make sense. We don't need a physical specimen with great mobility in midfield in a game we're trying to carve open a lowblock.

And the idea that he lacks the ball playing ability is as weird as it's wrong. His ball playing ability is better than most midfielders in PL, and he is one of the best in the world at passing through the lines. If anything, that should be the least worry about playing him in midfield.

Ok, we disagree. Let's check back in a year to see how much he has played in midfield.

 

[Champ]

What's unfathomably dumb is thinking players are incapable of being versatile, or featuring in different roles for different games. Do you not remember Ferguson and how he used his players? Pep?

No one is suggesting he plays there full time, but can you explain to me how it would be stupid to play him in midfield in a game where we play against a lowblock, dominate possession and struggle to break them down?

Surely you'd want a more attacking player in the middle in that situation, rather than a center back??

 

[Trigestis]

Surely you'd want a more attacking player in the middle in that situation, rather than a center back??

I mean if the alternative to Martinez is Éderson to open a defense, then I know who I'd much rather have. Honestly, at the end of the day it all depends which midfielders we end up signing. But not many players are as progressive as Martinez in terms of breaking the lines and opening a defense with a long pass.

 

[Ødegaard]

Surely you'd want a more attacking player in the middle in that situation, rather than a center back??

Amorim prefers 2 defenders.

 

[Champ]

I mean if the alternative to Martinez is Éderson to open a defense, then I know who I'd much rather have. Honestly, at the end of the day it all depends which midfielders we end up signing. But not many players are as progressive as Martinez in terms of breaking the lines and opening a defense with a long pass.

Well the alternative in that situation wouldn't be Ederson would it?!

But even if it was, I'd trust Ederson more than a CB to pick the lock.

 

[Trigestis]

Well the alternative in that situation wouldn't be Ederson would it?!

But even if it was, I'd trust Ederson more than a CB to pick the lock.

How would you know that? We have the midfielders we got, and the manager chooses how he wants it.

Why are you saying "a CB" to somehow strengthen your argument? Daley Blind was a CB, he'd unlock defenses better than most midfielders, and Martinez would obviously do it much more comfortably than Éderson, that's not his game.

 

[Grande]

I

I’m all up for selling any player at the right time and reinvesting as long as it improves the team but I don’t see how doing that with Licha will give us that result right now.

He’s our best ball playing centre back by a country mile and without him we’d struggle even more to break teams down than we already do.

His lack of height is the reason most look for any reason to replace him.

He is a very good CB who plays for the defending World Champion for a reason. He’s an important player for United because he gives us something others don’t. It’s up to others to displace him first, when he’s fifth choice we can talk about selling. As anyone he’ll make mistakes, but he’s made too many of the big ones in the past two games. Hope it’s just a rusty phase after being so long out of the game.

 

[Dansk]

At the end of the day, the fact remains that he's injured all the time. He has missed more than half our games over the course of four years here. If anyone came in with a serious offer, it would be crazy not to sell him. It's just very unlikely that anyone would offer serious money for him, given the fact that he's notoriously plagued by injuries every season. We shouldn't sell him for cheap, but if anyone offered £60m or something? Yes, absolutely.

 

[NLunited]

Not necessarily. I think he has all the traits to really excel in the midfield quarterback role. Very press resistant, great passing range and always looks to break the lines. Has a bit of a shot in him too. He's not the fastest, but not a slouch either.
Don't think he's a bad CB, but all these traits would make him excel in midfield too imo.

He does the same from defense. A quarter back dlp would drop into the backline anyways.

He hasn‘t got the stamina to play in midfield.

 

[Champ]

How would you know that? We have the midfielders we got, and the manager chooses how he wants it.

Why are you saying "a CB" to somehow strengthen your argument? Daley Blind was a CB, he'd unlock defenses better than most midfielders, and Martinez would obviously do it much more comfortably than Éderson, that's not his game.

Because we have Mount, Mainoo, Cunha and Diallo who could all be used in that instance, so I reckon they'd be used before we put a CB in midfield to do the same job....

I'm using CB because that's what he is! His game isn't unlocking defences either...

 

[NLunited]

Because we have Mount, Mainoo, Cunha and Diallo who could all be used in that instance, so I reckon they'd be used before we put a CB in midfield to do the same job....

I'm using CB because that's what he is! His game isn't unlocking defences either...

Not against playing a low block, but he‘s a cheat code in terms of progressing the ball and playing through the lines. His balls over the top are also elite.

Having him as a cb gives us an extra weapon.

 

[Champ]

Not against playing a low block, but he‘s a cheat code in terms of progressing the ball and playing through the lines. His balls over the top are also elite.

Having him as a cb gives us an extra weapon.

Yes, as a ball playing CB for sure, (although his actual defending is seriously lacking at times, case in point last night),
It would be foolish to put him against a low block ahead of any form of attacker/actual midfielder indeed.

 

[Xeque_279]

He does the same from defense. A quarter back dlp would drop into the backline anyways.

He hasn‘t got the stamina to play in midfield.

How did you come to that conclusion?

 

[Marwood]

Well the alternative in that situation wouldn't be Ederson would it?!

But even if it was, I'd trust Ederson more than a CB to pick the lock.

Do you think Ederson is a better passer of a ball than Martinez?

 

[Owen Hargo]

When I rise to power on this forum, it will be in instant permanent ban to suggest Martinez can play in midfield. It's so unfathomably dumb. FM logic.

Rooney played there for a big chunk of games. Carrick played a center back. Hargreaves played full back on a champions league semi final. SAF and pep have been doing this for long time and it pays off.

 

[Oranges038]

Rooney played there for a big chunk of games. Carrick played a center back. Hargreaves played full back on a champions league semi final. SAF and pep have been doing this for long time and it pays off.

Rooney was pretty rubbish in midfield. Carrick played CB in an injury crisis, as did Fletcher.
Hargreaves played right back quite a bit at different times, full back is much easier for a midfielder to play.

Martinez is not a midfielder and it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest he should be played there.

 

[Marwood]

Rooney was pretty rubbish in midfield. Carrick played CB in an injury crisis, as did Fletcher.
Hargreaves played right back quite a bit at different times, full back is much easier for a midfielder to play.

Martinez is not a midfielder and it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest he should be played there.

Rooney, Smith, OShea, Giggs, P Neville, Fortune, even Scholes.

All switched to CM with varying degrees of success.

And I'd say Martinez is more suited to the role than any of them(except Scholes obviously).

 

[Trigestis]

Rooney was pretty rubbish in midfield. Carrick played CB in an injury crisis, as did Fletcher.
Hargreaves played right back quite a bit at different times, full back is much easier for a midfielder to play.

Martinez is not a midfielder and it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest he should be played there.

Kimmich was not a midfielder - until he was. Daley Blind was a CB/LB who played a decent amount of games as a CM under various clubs, Schweinsteiger was a winger before he was a CM, Joelinton a striker turned into a CM, and there are so many more examples. Lisandro Martinez has already played as a CM in their Champions League 2019 run under ten Hag where he was really good, and the match against Aston Villa where he stood out. So, in the games he has played a CM, he has been good, but somehow it's "absolutely ridiculous" to suggest he can play there occasionally?

 

[Champ]

Do you think Ederson is a better passer of a ball than Martinez?

I think Ederson is a better midfielder than Martinez.

I think in an instance of requiring a midfield to break down a team playing a CB ahead of an actual midfielder is ridiculous and a defensive move, so counter intuitive to solving the issue.

Again, this is where players like Mount will be a far better option than both.

 

[Oranges038]

Rooney, Smith, OShea, Giggs, P Neville, Fortune, even Scholes.

All switched to CM with varying degrees of success.

And I'd say Martinez is more suited to the role than any of them(except Scholes obviously).

Smith, O'Shea, P Neville & Fortune were utility players that could plug a gap wherever was needed. Rooney's legs were gone, that was an experiment that should have been knocked on the head very early.

Scholes was always destined to drop back into midfield.

Kimmich was not a midfielder - until he was. Daley Blind was a CB/LB who played a decent amount of games as a CM under various clubs, Schweinsteiger was a winger before he was a CM, Joelinton a striker turned into a CM, and there are so many more examples. Lisandro Martinez has already played as a CM in their Champions League 2019 run under ten Hag where he was really good, and the match against Aston Villa where he stood out. So, in the games he has played a CM, he has been good, but somehow it's "absolutely ridiculous" to suggest he can play there occasionally?

If an injury situation arose that required him to plug a gap for a game or two, then yeah. He shouldn't be playing in midfield otherwise.

 

[Marwood]

I think Ederson is a better midfielder than Martinez.

I think in an instance of requiring a midfield to break down a team playing a CB ahead of an actual midfielder is ridiculous and a defensive move, so counter intuitive to solving the issue.

Again, this is where players like Mount will be a far better option than both.

But we're talking about who you want in CM when trying to break down a low block.

So passing ability is important in that situation.

So who is the better passer of the ball, Ederson or Martinez?

 

[Trigestis]

I think Ederson is a better midfielder than Martinez.

I think in an instance of requiring a midfield to break down a team playing a CB ahead of an actual midfielder is ridiculous and a defensive move, so counter intuitive to solving the issue.

Again, this is where players like Mount will be a far better option than both.

Using this logic, you would rather have Ugarte than Licha trying to break down a defense, simply on the basis that Ugarte is a CM, and Martinez is a CB?

 

[Champ]

But we're talking about who you want in CM when trying to break down a low block.

So passing ability is important in that situation.

So who is the better passer of the ball, Ederson or Martinez?

No, I'd want a more intelligent attacking player, so as I keep saying I'd rather Mount above either, but haven't the choice between the two I'd have Ederson as he's not a defender.

There's a reason why Martinez is a CB and not a midfielder. Martinez has a good range of passing, usually when he's not under any pressure at the back.

 

[Champ]

Using this logic, you would rather have Ugarte than Licha trying to break down a defense, simply on the basis that Ugarte is a CM, and Martinez is a CB?

Yeah, Ugarte is a much better player when closer to the opponents goal than Martinez.
But again, I'd rather a more attacking player than either of them.

 

[Marwood]

No, I'd want a more intelligent attacking player, so as I keep saying I'd rather Mount above either, but haven't the choice between the two I'd have Ederson as he's not a defender.

There's a reason why Martinez is a CB and not a midfielder. Martinez has a good range of passing, usually when he's not under any pressure at the back.

Crikey it's a straightforward question, out of two players who is a better passer.

Why the reluctance to answer?

 

[Hammondo]

Yeah, Ugarte is a much better player when closer to the opponents goal than Martinez.
But again, I'd rather a more attacking player than either of them.

I'm not sure how you have come to that conclusion.

 

[NLunited]

How did you come to that conclusion?

I didn‘t, every coach that coached him did.
At Ajax, Licha was a defensive midfielder before he became a cb.

 

[Trigestis]

I didn‘t, every coach that coached him did.
At Ajax, Licha was a defensive midfielder before he became a cb.

He was not. He was a CB who made some appearances at CM where he switched positions with Daley Blind. Both are very good at reading the game and exceptional passers, so Martinez could very well perform the role like Blind did. They both lack the physical qualities to excel as centre midfielders, but the idea that he can never play as a midfielder in any game because "he's a CB" is bizarre. Most of the arguments used against playing him there are entirely made up, or incorrect.

 

[Buckfast in the Park]

Rooney played there for a big chunk of games. Carrick played a center back. Hargreaves played full back on a champions league semi final. SAF and pep have been doing this for long time and it pays off.

Hargreaves was absolutely rapid, wouldn’t be surprised if he was faster than Ronaldo or Rooney in that team.
Probably would’ve made a world class full back if he played there consistently.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

He was not. He was a CB who made some appearances at CM where he switched positions with Daley Blind. Both are very good at reading the game and exceptional passers, so Martinez could very well perform the role like Blind did. They both lack the physical qualities to excel as centre midfielders, but the idea that he can never play as a midfielder in any game because "he's a CB" is bizarre. Most of the arguments used against playing him there are entirely made up, or incorrect.

If he’s so great as a CB, why would we even move him into midfield?

I think we should sell him - but the counter argument is that he’s too good to be sold/ has a unique skill set.

But here we have an argument to effectively take him out of that position, and try to turn him into, what would probably amount to an average midfielder.

 

[Trigestis]

If he’s so great as a CB, why would we even move him into midfield?

I think we should sell him - but the counter argument is that he’s too good to be sold/ has a unique skill set.

But here we have an argument to effectively take him out of that position, and try to turn him into, what would probably amount to an average midfielder.

The more progressive passers/composed passers in midfield, the better. If we're pinning a team back, there is absolutely no need for a player like Ugarte or Éderson there for their defensive ability/intensity. We need players who can pass through the lines, players that have great vision and can actually execute that pass. I'm not saying he should play there full time, no need for that, but against these types of teams, where we struggle to break them down and they're comfortable just sitting back, then it makes sense to have him further forward than limiting him by forcing him to prioritise CB duties.

 

[Champ]

Crikey it's a straightforward question, out of two players who is a better passer.

Why the reluctance to answer?

Because it's a loaded question.

Martinez is a better passer when not under pressure, Ederson from what I've seen is far better under pressure than Martinez, is also far better at going forward and far more dangerous in and around the opponents box.
But I'd rather neither as I keep saying. The choice won't be binary, but if it was it'd be Ederson all day long and probably would be for most managers too.

Who would I want to try and win is a game...a defender or a midfielder? Simple answer that one, otherwise we'd have seen Martinez constantly get selected further forward for that particular reason....yet it doesn't happen...

 

[Trigestis]

Because it's a loaded question.

Martinez is a better passer when not under pressure, Ederson from what I've seen is far better under pressure than Martinez, is also far better at going forward and far more dangerous in and around the opponents box.
But I'd rather neither as I keep saying. The choice won't be binary, but if it was it'd be Ederson all day long and probably would be for most managers too.

Who would I want to try and win is a game...a defender or a midfielder? Simple answer that one, otherwise we'd have seen Martinez constantly get selected further forward for that particular reason....yet it doesn't happen...

Very black and white. Who would you want in the box on corners when trying to win a game where we get 20 corners in 90 minutes; van Dijk (CB) or Hojlund (ST)?

 

[Marwood]

Because it's a loaded question.

Martinez is a better passer when not under pressure, Ederson from what I've seen is far better under pressure than Martinez, is also far better at going forward and far more dangerous in and around the opponents box.
But I'd rather neither as I keep saying. The choice won't be binary, but if it was it'd be Ederson all day long and probably would be for most managers too.

Who would I want to try and win is a game...a defender or a midfielder? Simple answer that one, otherwise we'd have seen Martinez constantly get selected further forward for that particular reason....yet it doesn't happen...

I'd want the more skilled footballer.

What position it says he is on paper doesn't influence anything.

 

[Champ]

Very black and white. Who would you want in the box on corners when trying to win a game where we get 20 corners in 90 minutes; van Dijk (CB) or Hojlund (ST)?

How about Ronaldo or VVD?

I'd want the player who'd scored more headers...
Much like I would want a player who has better attacking threat to come on to win a game....rather than a defender.

 

[Champ]

I'd want the more skilled footballer.

What position it says he is on paper doesn't influence anything.

As would I,

Which in this case would be Mount over any other options, which is what I've been saying.

But given the choice of Martinez a defender or Ederson a midfielder I would definitely want Ederson as he's more of an attacking threat.

 

[Trigestis]

How about Ronaldo or VVD?

I'd want the player who'd scored more headers...
Much like I would want a player who has better attacking threat to come on to win a game....rather than a defender.

You're arguing against your own arguments.

You want the player who is the best aerially threatening in that scenario, regardless of position. We agree on that. So, the same should apply to the scenario that you want the best one at unlocking a defense and is the better player passing through the lines, regardless of position on the field. Why is this something you disagree with, when you agree on the first scenario?