Are you referring to 'team of the tournament'? Yeah, I don't put much stock on it as i'm sure many don't. Still just good information to have, I guess.
Lisandro Martínez | 2026/27 Performances
- Thread starter MyOnlySolskjaer
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Yeah ‘team of the tournament’.
United fanbase has this weird obsession with Argentinian players. Heinze was a fan favourite and even won the Player of the Year award despite being a very average LB. For comparison, Evra never won it despite being twice the player and playing five times as many matches for the club.
Lisandro is great on the ball, for a defender, but that’s about it. He’s not outstanding at anything else. For a player of his abilities, his best ability should be availability. And over the last four seasons he has played in exactly 50% of league games, which is actually less than Luke Shaw.
I won’t be sad to see him go, but I guess that would require us to sign another CB. If Utd have no intention of bringing anyone in to replace him, I’d rather he stayed.
Lisandro is great on the ball, for a defender, but that’s about it. He’s not outstanding at anything else. For a player of his abilities, his best ability should be availability. And over the last four seasons he has played in exactly 50% of league games, which is actually less than Luke Shaw.
I won’t be sad to see him go, but I guess that would require us to sign another CB. If Utd have no intention of bringing anyone in to replace him, I’d rather he stayed.
Agreed. We've massively improved how we operate in the market under Ineos. Cashing in now and replacing him with someone solid, perennially available and at the right age would be an easy smart move
It's the 'blood and thunder' approach fans from all clubs enjoy, IMO. Bleed for the badge and fans will appreciate it and sometimes overrate it, for sure. Tbf, Heinze also played during a poorer period for us, versus a very successful period during which Evra played - so it was probably near impossible to win a POTY award for a LB.
I might slightly disagree with you about his ability - he's probably top 5 percentile 'on the ball' (just a guess from my side) for a CB and I think he has other decent attributes and with the right partner, he is excellent, as he's proven on a few occasions when he's had an injury free run (but it's okay to disagree on that point).
But i think the general consensus on here is actually in agreement - the best ability is availability (blah blah), and he's simply not been reliable for us. I would sell and replace, if the opportunity arose.
He's not just great on the ball, he is aggressive too and seeks to be involved a lot, never shies away. That works well under certain conditions, and not so well under others.
A more stable defender would be nice
It's not a weird obsession with Argentinian players. It's an affection for players with fight and drive. It just happens that a lot of Argentinian players have that quality.
And Heinze winning player is the year isn't surprising considering we were at a relatively low ebb during his time here. When your team is underperforming, the fans adore those that at least look like they're trying.
Meanwhile Evra, who was a far superior player, was just one excellent part of an excellent team that was consistently performing well.
Nationality is not the reason at all.
Might not normally be the case but it is in this instance. He kept the fewest clean sheets because he had the best defence in the competition. 10 shots on target all tournament. That's one or two games for your average match.
Heinze, for all his limitations, had some fantastic games in his first season for us, especially the big games (Arsenal and Liverpool away, Chelsea in the league cup semi final). He was a worthy winner that year which wasn’t a great one for us.
But yeah, we do like that Argentinian aggression and fight. We don’t like it so much when they leave the club in bad circumstances though.
The gaslighting with him can be pretty insane at times. Some will tell you despite him obvious physical limitations that his height and speed present no problem to him or the team when it clearly does.
To his credit, he manages these limitations way better than most his size would. There’s a reason why we don’t see a bunch of 5’9 CB’s with average pace playing across the PL. He does well enough that it’s not a glaring weakness but it’s an area that will always present an opportunity for the opposition and an area we need to worry about covering.
He has to overcompensate a lot to deal with these limitations and that why he’ll get silly yellow cards like the one in the World Cup final or the ridiculously called red card against Calvert Lewis for pulling his hair.
The point I’m making really is that he is extremely replaceable. What we would lose in his ability in possession is less valuable than the increase in potential of the team if we had huge physical and fast CB with competent ability on the ball.
To his credit, he manages these limitations way better than most his size would. There’s a reason why we don’t see a bunch of 5’9 CB’s with average pace playing across the PL. He does well enough that it’s not a glaring weakness but it’s an area that will always present an opportunity for the opposition and an area we need to worry about covering.
He has to overcompensate a lot to deal with these limitations and that why he’ll get silly yellow cards like the one in the World Cup final or the ridiculously called red card against Calvert Lewis for pulling his hair.
The point I’m making really is that he is extremely replaceable. What we would lose in his ability in possession is less valuable than the increase in potential of the team if we had huge physical and fast CB with competent ability on the ball.
I'm not happy about the Malvinas shit, but a clearing of the air within the squad would put that behind him so he can get back to business. He's a top CB, end of.
Seeing as he's on holiday now I assume we will know the extent of his injury once he reports to pre-season?
The gaslighting is telling us that its caused problems when hes consistently done the best against the most physical striker in the world
His height is a weakness, but it doesnt mean it cannot be balanced out by his teammates and now a goalkeeper who is good at dealing with crosses.
The reason we dont see a bunch of 5'9 Cbs in the premier league is that the other short CBs dont have half his ability with the ball. Thats why hes not easily replaceable. His bookings at the World Cup are the exact same bookings any other player gets knowing its better to take someone down than having them break. The other players dont have it questioned.
I think the way football is going esp PL football, this is going to soon become unsustainable. e.g.,
If you want to be a pressing team, you need these monster CBs who can cover large spaces, defend 1v1s against some of the best attackers in the league and for me Licha is not it. Just take the hit on the ball progression and let him play in some back three system in a slower league.
I really like Martinez, he's gritty, great on the ball and seeemingly a leader. Obvious negatives is his injury record and he is a somewhat rash decision maker.
Which brings me to my often shared, not popular opinion that he'd be a very good option to play as our 4th midfielder in the 6 role. I stand by this opinion and hope he gets a run there again this year. Only one game last year that I recall in that spot.
Which brings me to my often shared, not popular opinion that he'd be a very good option to play as our 4th midfielder in the 6 role. I stand by this opinion and hope he gets a run there again this year. Only one game last year that I recall in that spot.
So you would keep an injury prone player, who has played only 50% of our games to cover midfield - when presumably we only need that player in case of injuries/ suspension? I.e it cannot be planned.
That’s sounds like a horrific idea.
For me its the Bruno situation. He can play well as a deeper midfielder finding the #10s but then we lack a #10 who we can rely on to make chances in every match. If we play Lisandro as a ball playing #6 we wont have a CB who is good at playing out from the back finding the #6. So what we really need is to find an actual midfielder who has some of Lisandro's vision and ability. Hopefully Santos has that for short range at least.
I accept the critique.
I think it's a good economical answer, saving us from buying a third midfielder and (IMO using a player that i rate happen to highly in this role) who can play CB. I'd like this to become more of an option as Heaven becomes a first choice guy. And I'm all for fiscal responsibility, especially if funds would be shifted to youth development.
Let's load the academy with top 16-18s and use this to build the future. That's THE way forward. I've note compared the youth of our first 22 to the rest of the world, but I imagine we are on the younger side.
AND Because we aren't going to outspend City and we can't compete with Real Madrid for the shiniest objects.
I think it's a good economical answer, saving us from buying a third midfielder and (IMO using a player that i rate happen to highly in this role) who can play CB. I'd like this to become more of an option as Heaven becomes a first choice guy. And I'm all for fiscal responsibility, especially if funds would be shifted to youth development.
Let's load the academy with top 16-18s and use this to build the future. That's THE way forward. I've note compared the youth of our first 22 to the rest of the world, but I imagine we are on the younger side.
AND Because we aren't going to outspend City and we can't compete with Real Madrid for the shiniest objects.
This in itself is the issue. The centre back should be the player that provides relief and cover for other players, we shouldn’t need other players to cover limitations of a CB. I just think the combination of height and speed is too much to compensate for. We will have a good defence but it will never be great as long as he’s in it.
I know it might not sound like it but I’m actually a big fan of him but I no longer think he’s worth the hassle. When he’s on his game, he’s excellent but between injuries and playing himself back to form how often do we actually get the best version of him. When he’s not in form that’s when his limitations become much more visible on the pitch. Saliba can make a mistake but has the recovery pace to correct it or worry the attacker enough to rush at a chance. Martinez doesn’t have this so he more than most needs to have a flawless game.
I’d like him more as a third choice with proper PL defenders as my starting duo.
Has always been the case for top teams to be fair, nothing has really changed in that regard I'd say.
I've heard Jaap Stam and Ferdinand say it. The way Utd played they were left isolated in those 1v1s and expected to deal with it, which they did the majority of the time. It's how Utd were able to commit more players forward in attack.
Other than being a left footed CB Heaven and Lisandro arent alike. Heaven's ball playing stats leave a lot to be desired and its Yoro who is a little bit more promising in that regard. Heaven looks like a Maguire or De Ligt, comfortable on the ball CB best at clearing the ball out of the box
That's interesting because based on the eye test Heaven looks far more press resistant so he can take the sting out of an opposition press and thus play the ball in a fairly progressive manner, where his teammates receive it with less pressure on them. The issue is that he's not had a lot of minutes under Carrick and with his status in the team as a talented but cheap punt, I'm not sure he has the authority to go beyond just filling in as squad player. On the ball he's shown far more promise than Yoro but it's a small sample size. Outside of Martinez, Dalot, Mazraoui and Heaven I simple don't count on any our defenders being high volume passers (in a meaningful sense) or the one's to take the initiative to actually get the ball to our midfielders to their feet in good positions and situations. Unfortunately, only 1 out of that list is consistently in the first 11 line up.
Of course that's without mentioning the tactics or lack thereof when it comes to actually having a consistent method of build up play.
Heavens is a 19 year old. When Licha was 19, he played at Newell's II in Argentina and nobody on this forum had heard of him.
Please don't put Heavens in some kind of "he cannot play ball" box. He is actually not bad for his age and experience and he has plenty of time and opportunity to develop. His talent allows him to be far better than Licha in the future, if he stays fit and gets proper development. I hope that is exactly what will happen, but the least we as fans can do, is to not unnecessarily trash our young talent
Love the player but his main issue is and has been availability. No matter how good he is, if he's not on the pitch, he doesn't give us anything. Wouldn't mind cashing out on him given he's had a very impressive WC campaign, however, that's only if we use that to get a replacement.
Beside the passing and the tackling his biggest strength might be the reading of the game and his overview. This allows him to position himself better and play quicker passes compared to many other defenders.
When Mitten is saying “it’s not an easy locker room, although it’s getting better”, I’m sure he’s one of the nutcases still there. But it’s probably overall still beneficial to have one or two of these to keep everyone else on their toes.
Actually I posted about him
Back then I would watch Argentine league matches and he was the standout ball playing CB. Senesi was good too with his long range passes but Lisandro was better at bringing the ball forward as well
Heaven appears fantastically steady and composed on the ball and under pressure. He has a nice touch and is strong. I know he's young but time on the pitch seems the best way to discover if he's a hidden gem.
Additionally, the injury discussion really frustrates me as we critique players for their inability to be on the pitch and even flippantly say we should just move on from the likes of Martinez, yet we want a player that gives it his all and will throw his body around for the team. The best examples of this are Lisandro, Luke Shaw and even back to Phil Jones. These 3 would put their head thru a wall for us and they pick up sometimes very serious injuries. Either we want this type player or we want someone that tippy toes around so that he's always available for duty.
I'll take those 3 and their willingness to die for the cause and deal with them being too knocked around to play. Yes, i've been as frustrated as anyone with Shaw's injury record, but i don't want rid of him! It's just what you get when you have a player with a killer mentality. Just my 2 cents.
Additionally, the injury discussion really frustrates me as we critique players for their inability to be on the pitch and even flippantly say we should just move on from the likes of Martinez, yet we want a player that gives it his all and will throw his body around for the team. The best examples of this are Lisandro, Luke Shaw and even back to Phil Jones. These 3 would put their head thru a wall for us and they pick up sometimes very serious injuries. Either we want this type player or we want someone that tippy toes around so that he's always available for duty.
I'll take those 3 and their willingness to die for the cause and deal with them being too knocked around to play. Yes, i've been as frustrated as anyone with Shaw's injury record, but i don't want rid of him! It's just what you get when you have a player with a killer mentality. Just my 2 cents.
I don't attribute this quality you're extolling in any way to Luke Shaw. He does have other qualities like otherworldly technique, but I wouldn't class him as a "put your body on the line" character.
Well, I am impressed
However, I would hope that you would agree that even if you knew about Licha, playing in Argentine league till 21 vs playing in EPL big matches at 19, even if some of them, are not comparable. Heavens is ahead of where Licha was, he has all the talent in the world, and there's no reason why we shouldn't hope he will be even better player, fingers crossed
Well, I am impressed
However, I would hope that you would agree that even if you knew about Licha, playing in Argentine league till 21 vs playing in EPL big matches at 19, even if some of them, are not comparable. Heavens is ahead of where Licha was, he has all the talent in the world, and there's no reason why we shouldn't hope he will be even better player, fingers crossed
Sure.Theres just no reason to think hes the same type of player. He's good at clearing the ball from the box and feels a bit less prone to a mistake than Yoro. He may develop other areas or he may not. Lisandro is the most rare type of CB so chances are we'd have to go out and find that type of player and spend plenty to secure him. Its unlikely it'll just come from developing what we have when we didnt sign those players for that specific skillset.
If the objective is to win trophies I don't see the the value in having a player who is hardly ever available even if (or because) he throws his body about. He actually has to play to be useful. There is a middle ground between tip toe and sick note.
I would keep him as one of the main pair when able and procure a replacement in case he gets injured. We won't always play against attacking teams that allow space for us so we need players that can move the ball.
Heaven is by far and away the better on the ball between him and Yoro. Yoro is more comparable to Varane where his technique is serviceable but that is it. Heaven has shown far more than Yoro in terms of technique on the ball. Its why there is excitement about him.
The numbers dont back this up
Yoro left, Heaven right
Heaven is a better dribbler, but makes less ground running the ball. Heaven is more accurate with attempted progressive passes, but makes less of them than Yoro. So on the occasions he does things with the ball he does them better, but Yoro does them a lot more often for now.
Lad had better passing accuracy in the league last season, than Martinez in the league last season. So you’re saying both of them aren’t good passers?
We invested in Yoro. It’s time we trust him
I don’t recall a prolonged run of games that’s neccessary to enable the development we expected when we signed him.
I don’t recall a prolonged run of games that’s neccessary to enable the development we expected when we signed him.
You think picking 1 single stat and not all the stats around it means anything? Mainoo had higher pass accuracy than Casemiro or Bruno last season, is he a better passer?
It‘s been covered in here extensively. Licha doesn’t have the legs to play in midfield, or left back. His best position is lcb, where he is the preferred option of three coaches now.
He can cover as a 6 in an emergency.
I agree with you we should use youth to cover shortfalls in the squad, instead of buying players who aren‘t great value.
That way we save ££ and can use it to buy an elite target who is the right fit in the future.
Wouldn’t dare sell Martinez yet. Every time he plays, the team plays better and he provides leadership and will set standards in training - worth hanging onto him despite the obvious injury-proneness for this season. If we secure a worthwhile replacement next season, then sure.