Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Klopper76, Jul 15, 2019.
34 years of age is definitely in the territory where I would expect deterioration, rapid or not.
Oh yes, because of that old fashioned thing that fullbacks sometimes have to do (booo) - defend.
You'll be singing from this hymn sheet a lot in the future with the fullbacks you have stocked up, I reckon.
I think Sterling>Mane and Salah>Silva. I don't think there's much difference between the quality of either pairing. They're four top level players.
And I don't think that was Salah being less than stellar, I think that's his actual level and he'll be pretty much the same this season, which obviously is still a world class attacking player. I'd say it's about 50/50 in the wide areas (with city obviously having better depth with Sane) but then in terms of an all round attacking unit I rate Aguero higher than Firmino.
But again, it's all obviously very close and down to personal preference, starting XI wise both you and City are very well matched and the league reflected that last season and probably will again.
AWB will develop the attacking side of his game in addition to being absolutely solid, don't expect 10-15 assists though.
So you're basing your opinion on a hypothetical deterioration of a player, even though he's shown no signs of it?
In that case, I'd rather have Hazard in my team than Ronaldo, cos Ronaldo is 34 and that's when players become sh*te.
Don't think it's all that unreasonable. I also think it's an open question of who will have the better season between hazard and Ronaldo.
Age is a real thing you know. 34 is around the time most players retire.
TAA - Laporte - van Dijk - Robertson
Bernardo - de Bruyne
Salah - Aguero - Sterling
Their first elevens are pretty close in quality. The only clear advantages are Liverpool at LB and City at AM; City have the significantly stronger bench too.
I think people are forgetting about Rodri with the whole Fabinho v Fernandinho discussion. I'm reasonably confident he'll have that DM spot in the combined eleven locked down by next summer.
The obvious difference that separates City and Liverpool is the quality, creativity and intelligence that we have in midfield. Goalkeeper, defence, attack: there is not a substantial difference in quality between either sides best offerings. Liverpool have a slightly better defence (if Mendy can keep fit then this gap would narrow), keepers are pointless separating, City's attack is marginally better in my view because Aguero > Firmino but otherwise it's up for debate.
However, the ability to choose from Fernandinho/Rodri/Gundogan/Foden/David Silva/de Bruyne/Bernardo is just not even comparable to what Liverpool can offer in those positions. I said to a mate on Sunday when I saw Liverpool's lineup that their team is so good but if they just had someone like de Bruyne in that midfield then it could be an unbelievable side. And City won the league last season basically without him.
Combined lineup I'd go for something like this, disregarding the system being used and just focusing on individual quality:
Walker van Dijk Laporte Robertson
Fernandinho de Bruyne
Salah Bernardo Sterling
Obvious cases can be made for TAA over Walker, Ederson in net, Mane in LW. Don't see any other areas really up for debate. Mendy if he's fit certainly has the ability to rival Robertson but that's a big if.
This is painfully accurate and true.
Mostly agree with the rest of your points too by the way. I think we're a top side that'll comfortably finish top 4, but won't challenge you for the title again. A third CL final in a row would be amazing and is probably more achievable than winning the league imo. Hopefully Klopp at least takes the FA Cup seriously this year as well.
Those combined XI debates are mostly meaningless. Much depends who is the manager and what style he wants to use.
Interestingly, while Liverpool's main players are in their prime now, e.g. VVD, Salah, Mane and Firmino, City have top players like Laporte, Bernardo, Sterling, Sane, Foden and Jesus who are yet to enter their prime. That is, City are better prepared to dominate the league. In 3 years Liverpool's best players will be on the wrong side of 30 whereas a group of 8-9 City players will be in their prime. But if Liverpool manage to pull of another VVD and another Salah in the market, well, they might become favourites. City without Guardiola will be a quality team but maybe not of the same class.
I think you'll challenge us for the title. Over the course of an average season I'd say the advantage City have (midfield + depth) is worth 4-6 points, with obvious variances depending on injuries/luck/other competitions. I reckon Guardiola is really going to do all he can to win the Champions League this season. Last year, in the away game at Spurs, he played a team that had one eye on the league game (against Palace? If I recall correctly) and it backfired. There's no chance he'll repeat that this season. The intensity of last year's title race made him focus on that above all else. Your team is still fantastic, full of confidence and is hardly an ageing squad. I'm fully expecting another really good title race.
Why is their a big Fernandinho Vs Fabinho debate? Shouldn't it be more Rodri Vs Fabinho now considering the Spaniard is likely the new man at DM for City.
Most people, myself included, likely haven't seen enough of Rodri yet to offer a meaningful opinion.
I think you're both still pissed about the Champions League, both your opinions on our first 11 are laughable and completely delusional.
Why do you think not a single City player is being considered for the top individual trophies?
Is that a UEFA/FIFA conspiracy?
Also just to remind you as both of you seem to forget, City literally stole the Premier League from us with a single point, yet were nowhere to be seen in the CL...again.
Fair assessment. I think we should've addressed the lack of creativity in our midfield during this transfer window. It was noticeable to me watching City last season that you're always in control of games. Even the games you lost you mostly had control of the pace and flow of the game.
We had numerous games last season where that simply wasn't the case. Just off the top of my head Newcastle away, Leicester away & West Ham away were all examples of where we didn't have control of the game.
You're argument is flawed imo. Fernandinho 34, Silva 33 and Aguero 31 are all some of Citys very best players. Add to that Kompany who already left. Liverpool have two players on the wrong side of 30, Lallana 31and Milner 33. Not the same quality as their City counterparts. And de Bruyne is 28, older than Salah, Mané and Firmino.
Laporte, Bernardo and Sterling are all 25 years old.. Hardly youngsters anymore. They are two years younger than our front three. And if you're gonna include them, then TTA, Robertson, Fabinho, Keita and Gomez surely deserves a mention too.
I really don't see much difference in the task the clubs are facing regarding the age of players
Yeah it's the opinion of neutrals which are laughable and delusional. Tit.
The CL is a cup knockout tournament in which anything can happen. It's not a conspiracy, it's just a completely flawed way to judge players and City players don't get the recognition they deserve for achieving a domestic treble.
Stole the premier league from you? They won it fair and square, the feck is this shit? They completely dominated England and won every domestic trophy. They were seconds away from getting past us in the CL quarter's, that's the nature of a cup knockout competition .. it's not like you bossed the final against us, a dumb decision from Sissoko put us on the backfoot.
I agree with much of this, but with two caveats. There is a substantial difference between Liverpool's defence and City's, at least as far as their first 11 goes. Liverpool have better fullbacks, better CBs, only fall behind in depth at fullback. However, they make up for that with depth at CB. If Lovren is your best defender, you are in trouble, but if he is 4th choice that is excellent. He is probably the best 4th choice central defender in the world. On top of that, Matip and Gomez are just as good as their City counterparts, while VVD is significantly better.
Secondly, Liverpool's midfielders are wildly underrated outside the club. Generally Fabinho is well rated, while everyone else is dismissed. Wijnaldum in particular is one of the best midfielders in the Premier League. He has the work rate to match the rest of Liverpool's midfield, while also being the most technically gifted member of Liverpool's midfield. He is one of those smart players, who makes the right pass, retains possession, has good positional awareness, etc. but doesn't score from 40 yards out or play 60 yard cross field passes. Those kinds of players are usually far better rated by supporters of their own club, than they are by neutrals who just watch the highlights (he doesn't tend to make the highlights that often).
When you combine that with Milner, Henderson, Keita, and Ox you have a very talented and extremely deep midfield at Liverpool. The only reason they aren't at City's level in the midfield isn't because Liverpool's midfield isn't excellent, it is, but because City probably have the best midfield in Premier League history at the moment (though Fernandinho's age might be an issue if Rodri isn't immediately up to the task).
Fabinho has gotten annoyingly good. Even in pre season, the guy is like an octopus intercepting many counter attacks. I feel like he's their biggest 'signing' since he wasn't really featured in half of last season.
Disagree. You don't have emerging stars in attacking midfield and attack except Brewster who is a lot less proven than Foden. City have Bernardo, Sterling, Sane, Jesus and Foden. They have already replacements for the oldish stars, you are yet to find replacements for the front 3. Defensively wise, their isn't much beween both teams regarding age.
In 3 years, City will have many top players betwen 25 and 29 y.o. (prime): Ederson, Cancelo, Laporte, Stones, Zinchenko, Mendy, Rodri, Bernardo, Sterling, Sane, Jesus. Liverpool will have Gomez, TAA, Robertson, Fabinho, Keita. Your current stars will be 30+. Compare both group of players and tell me who seems better prepared for the future.
Fabinho was always gonna turn out well IMO. Quality DM. Just needed to get used to the PL's pace.
City conceded 4 goals in the last 14 games when the title was decided, Liverpool conceded twice that - 8. There is no "substantial difference" between both teams defensively wise. Kompany left but they have new options in Rodri (DM) and Cancelo. If Mendy stays fit for half of the season, they might concede fewer goals than Liverpool.
Saying all our stars will be 30+, ie old, is pushing it.. Alisson will be 29. Firmino, Salah and Mané will be 30. Van Dijk will be 31.
Lallana will be 34 and Milner 36. Arguably the only two of our players who needs replacement because of age, but not amy of our stars.
In three years Aguero will be 34, Fernandinho 37. Silva 36. Walker 32. De Bruyne 31, same age as the oldest of our stars.
So City will have to replace several of their stars within three years because of age where as Liverpool don't have to replace any of theirs.
City have already got lined up replacements for all bar Aguero and KDB
Yeah, but if they have the same quality remains to be seen.
I do agree liverpool lacks strength in FB position but if Milner can be relied in midfield he can be relied in FB position. He has proven it by playing whole season previously there. Gomez although injury prone is still viable option and so is fabinho. Also you can always buy a replacement in january.
Last season you guys were like "Klopp has adapted to premier league, his team doesnt press as much and as intense as before." And after pre-season suddenly " Klopp's system is physically draining and intense."
Klopp's team just hit 97 points mark and they did it not by pressing but by managing games. I dont think you will agree to it but if you recall you will realise the narrative last season was "Klopp's team has come smart and they can flip their pressing switch whenever they want and they do it for only 10-15 mins a game."
Also most of the pressing is done by firmino and midfielders and this season they have two more than last season (Lallana and Ox).
Bernardo is already a replacement for David Silva and big things are expected from Foden. By all accounts Rodri will replace Fernandinho already this season. Jesus started many games season 17/18 despite misssing 2-3 months through injury. Didn't stop them from winning 100 pts. Whether he can replace Aguero is early to say.
Anyway, in 3 years time City will have an younger team than yours with more key players aged 25-29 which was my point from the start.
I think City can do better than Aguero, although it could go wrong, obviously. I still don't rate Jesus particularly.
They might have a job finding seamless replacements for KDB & Silva, although Bernardo looks like one.
Liverpool age profile is very good, imo. But things have a habit of changing.
Well if Bernardo replaces Silva, who replaces Bernardo then? Let's see about Foden, Jesus and Rodri. I will be amazed, if they get to the same levels as a Fernandinho or Aguero.
You are absolutely right in your statement regarding 26-29 years though. The depth City has also includes their youth. Nobody can match their depth. My point was, that they also have to replace some of their highest profiles pretty soon where as Liverpool don't.
Agree. Aguero and Silva will probably decline somewhat next season. But just like Bernardo stepped up last season when KDB was injured, so some of the younger players, the likes of Laporte, Sterling, Sane, Jesus, Rodri, Bernardo himself, might get better and compensate for the expected drop in the performances of the olders stars. The aging of several City stars is a chance for Liverpool but it is hard to predict anything because City have several younger stars in midfield and attack who can improve further and offset the negative effects from Fernandinho, Silva and Aguero getting older.
Who? Be a huge task to get someone in who can even come close to replicating what Aguero has done for us.
How did this guy get a managers gig?
I just don't think he does much more for you than score. An all round CF does that & more in your team, is my wild prediction.
But yes, Aguero has done it in harder circumstances & when needed in adverse circumstances too.
And I'm guessing / talking drivel possibly.
It's hard to predict.. Especially about the future. But I feel we have some opportunities the next couple of years, if we can keep our players and add a few. It depends on how well City replaces their aging stars, and whether we can keep the momentum going. I'm not saying it's likely, but it's possible. In 3-4 years we probably need to rebuild, so we have to get something out of this squad before then.
That’s some statement
Talking about a player that for 5 seasons running has consistently scored around 30 goals and double figures in assists every year in all comps for City
I can’t agree with you here
I didn't realise it has been 30 each season - I didn't think he was super-great last year.
And OK, maybe it is a bit wacky.
Only Callum Wilson got more assists than him as a striker last season. Season before that he was beaten only by Lukaku and Firmino. And in both seasons he only had one less than the leader. That's only talking statistics too. If you actually watch Aguero regularly in this City side you'd realise he does a lot more than just score.
Ah but, The Caf doesn't rate any of Wilson, Lukaku or Firmino.
Let's just forget I said anything though, . Might be for the best.
That is the most insane piece I have read for a long time.. He must have lost his mind
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