Liverpool 2020-21

#07

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Didn't see a thread for Liverpool this season. If there is one please merge this with that.

A lot is being made of Liverpool's drop off and, after all the praise Liverpool have had over the past few years, I'm loving it.

However, I also think this speaks to the poor level of football punditry. Honestly, its shocking some of these people get paid hundreds of thousands to trot out truisms and trash.

There is no major problem with Liverpool IMO. Instead there's a bunch of small things that, on their own don't matter but put together create an issue.

The foremost problem Liverpool have is Klopp's system relies on energy and emotion. A lot of it comes from him. Its draining to play that way for years on the trot without fundamentally refreshing the squad and Liverpool haven't. To compensate for that Klopp always sacked off the domestic cups. However, this season, with the condensed calendar he just hasn't been able to rest his best players. Its showing. The Champions League will make this worse when it resumes cos Liverpool will 100% go for it.

The next problem is related to the condensed calendar: injuries. Yes, everyone has them. However, trying to play Klopp's 'heavy metal football' without being able to refresh the squad with Jota or others. Once Liverpool lost Jota a lot of issues started to arise. Liverpool has to rely on the same players more than ever before and those players are exhausted.

The next problem is related to the previous two points: change of style. People keep asking 'Why Thiago?' Actually, I understand Klopp's thinking: If you have a huge amount of games piled up and you can't refresh the squad, you can't just rely on outrunning everyone. Eventually you'll get muscle injuries. Thiago's there for a more deliberate style, a different way of opening up defences that doesn't just rely on energy. However, the squad Liverpool have isn't really tooled for that. Other players are suffering as a result. Having Thiago in midfield means the Liverpool full backs have to be more cautious, because Thiago can't cover them the way Fabinho or Henderson or Milner do. Liverpool's midfield, before Thiago, was mostly runners. The likes of Keita and Wiljnaldum offer strength and work rate not silky skills. We've seen ourselves with how we've had to rely on McFred, if you've only got two workers rather than three, it can be risky. We do it because the benefit of Bruno at #10 outweighs the disadvantage of doing something different. However, Liverpool having fewer runners in midfield means there's often a lack of cover behind Alexander-Arnold and Robertson. United exploited that, Burnley exploited that, everyone is exploiting it. You can tell Alexander-Arnold and Robertson are conscious of it too and they're not playing with freedom. Its affecting Liverpool going forward and backwards.

All of these things together are why Liverpool are having a tough moment. However, there's a way to remedy all of it and I wouldn't be surprised if Liverpool turn things around.
 

Klopper76

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I created the thread for us last year and look what happened. :p

Good OP though and I think you're right that there are several smaller issues piling on top of each other all at once. This is my take:

- Injuries: Yes everyone has them but ours have impacted not only personnel/quality but also other areas of the pitch. Losing all three CB's has led to Fabinho playing at CB. He's done a fantastic job but I think we've missed him in midfield and lack another player who can do that job as well as he can. Henderson isn't that kind of player and Wijnaldum isn't either. Thiago has been playing there recently but lacks the legs to do it effectively off the ball. That's why he keeps going to ground all the time.
Further to this, losing Fabinho to the CB position has meant that we have one less midfielder to play, which means someone like Henderson or Thiago has to fill that roll and then we only have Wijnaldum, Milner, Jones and Shaqiri left (Keita isn't really an option and never has been long term). Jota's injury has also damaged us due to lack of competition which has led to poor, complacent performances in the front three imo.

- Fullbacks: Alexander-Arnold has had a poor season. His numbers are down and he only has two assists all season. We built our attack on the effectiveness of our full backs to create and supply the front three (front two really due to Firmino's drop off as a goal threat). Robertson more recently looks like he's struggling a bit as well. We brought Thiago in to offer another option when we have lots of the ball but he's now having to play as a deeper midfielder because Fabinho isn't there. I think Klopp did this assuming that teams would eventually learn to defend the wide areas better to prevent us from creating as much. This is now happening but we're not able to compensate via our midfield, which has been entirely functional over the last two years, not creative.

- Natural regression: We've just had two back to back seasons getting 97 & 99 points. City finished 17/18 on 100 points & 18/19 on 98 points. They then dropped off massively in 19/20 and won't break 90 points again this season. This is because it isn't possible to maintain those standards for longer than two seasons imo. The Premier League is always changing and teams are always adapting. It takes a huge effort to break 90 points in England and isn't sustainable over a long period covering multiple seasons.

- The front three: They've been together since January 17/18 (when Coutinho) left. That's a long time for a front three to be played together without competition or challenge. I think come complacency has set in. It's no secret that Firmino can't be considered a serious goal threat any more. He rarely looks threatening in front of goal. This might be because his role has changed in the team but he's still a no. 9 and isn't offering that threat. Salah has fantastic goal stats this season but if he's not scoring he really isn't offering everything. He scored two yesterday but I thought he had a poor game. He was dispossessed in that channel numerous times in the first half and gave United a platform to break from. Mane looks like he needs a rest. Physically I've noticed he seems to be losing 50/50's and looks physically shot. This area of the pitch needs a refresh. Jota was brought in and hit the ground running but then...injured for two months. He's back soon and I expect this to help. Origi, Minamino, Chamberlain...none of them are good enough to replace Salah or Mane.

- Teams learning how to play against us: This happens in football and the team at the top always has a target on their back. Teams have adapted to defend more effectively and targeted our right hand side as a weak point (this has been the case for a while).

I also think certain players have had their heads turned. Salah has been linked with a move away and Wijnaldum is leaving in the summer.

I don't think we're dead and buried though. I see enough when we play to see that if we can click up top again, we'll be an issue for everyone. We'll end up in the top four imo.
 

Crustanoid

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The RAWK meltdown thread is the only place for serious discussion on the Dippers
 

TheReligion

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I've said for a while now that Liverpool are ready for a mini rebuild. They have alot of players in there late 20s early 30s and in key roles. They aren't a young team.

Not sure what Klopp's record is in this area but it was something Fergie was great at. Building new teams. It's hard to get the balance but keeping things fresh is really important.
 

#07

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I created the thread for us last year and look what happened. :p

Good OP though and I think you're right that there are several smaller issues piling on top of each other all at once. This is my take:

- Injuries: Yes everyone has them but ours have impacted not only personnel/quality but also other areas of the pitch. Losing all three CB's has led to Fabinho playing at CB. He's done a fantastic job but I think we've missed him in midfield and lack another player who can do that job as well as he can. Henderson isn't that kind of player and Wijnaldum isn't either. Thiago has been playing there recently but lacks the legs to do it effectively off the ball. That's why he keeps going to ground all the time.
Further to this, losing Fabinho to the CB position has meant that we have one less midfielder to play, which means someone like Henderson or Thiago has to fill that roll and then we only have Wijnaldum, Milner, Jones and Shaqiri left (Keita isn't really an option and never has been long term). Jota's injury has also damaged us due to lack of competition which has led to poor, complacent performances in the front three imo.

- Fullbacks: Alexander-Arnold has had a poor season. His numbers are down and he only has two assists all season. We built our attack on the effectiveness of our full backs to create and supply the front three (front two really due to Firmino's drop off as a goal threat). Robertson more recently looks like he's struggling a bit as well. We brought Thiago in to offer another option when we have lots of the ball but he's now having to play as a deeper midfielder because Fabinho isn't there. I think Klopp did this assuming that teams would eventually learn to defend the wide areas better to prevent us from creating as much. This is now happening but we're not able to compensate via our midfield, which has been entirely functional over the last two years, not creative.

- Natural regression: We've just had two back to back seasons getting 97 & 99 points. City finished 17/18 on 100 points & 18/19 on 98 points. They then dropped off massively in 19/20 and won't break 90 points again this season. This is because it isn't possible to maintain those standards for longer than two seasons imo. The Premier League is always changing and teams are always adapting. It takes a huge effort to break 90 points in England and isn't sustainable over a long period covering multiple seasons.

- The front three: They've been together since January 17/18 (when Coutinho) left. That's a long time for a front three to be played together without competition or challenge. I think come complacency has set in. It's no secret that Firmino can't be considered a serious goal threat any more. He rarely looks threatening in front of goal. This might be because his role has changed in the team but he's still a no. 9 and isn't offering that threat. Salah has fantastic goal stats this season but if he's not scoring he really isn't offering everything. He scored two yesterday but I thought he had a poor game. He was dispossessed in that channel numerous times in the first half and gave United a platform to break from. Mane looks like he needs a rest. Physically I've noticed he seems to be losing 50/50's and looks physically shot. This area of the pitch needs a refresh. Jota was brought in and hit the ground running but then...injured for two months. He's back soon and I expect this to help. Origi, Minamino, Chamberlain...none of them are good enough to replace Salah or Mane.

- Teams learning how to play against us: This happens in football and the team at the top always has a target on their back. Teams have adapted to defend more effectively and targeted our right hand side as a weak point (this has been the case for a while).

I also think certain players have had their heads turned. Salah has been linked with a move away and Wijnaldum is leaving in the summer.

I don't think we're dead and buried though. I see enough when we play to see that if we can click up top again, we'll be an issue for everyone. We'll end up in the top four imo.
I have been trying to forget since it happened...

I think you make a lot of good points but I disagree with the comment about complacency. I just think, as you say elsewhere you're physically shot in key areas. Without Jota that's left you relying on players like Shaqiri, Origi and Minamino to freshen things up, the drop off from the first XI is just too big. Its not that Firmino, Salah or Mane go out there trying to play bad. They are just burned out from playing so hard and so fast year after year.

I've said for a while now that Liverpool are ready for a mini rebuild. They have alot of players in there late 20s early 30s and in key roles. They aren't a young team.

Not sure what Klopp's record is in this area but it was something Fergie was great at. Building new teams. It's hard to get the balance but keeping things fresh is really important.
This is why Sir Alex was the best. We were all losing our minds when he sold Ince, Kanchelskis and Hughes but he knew what he was doing. He always knew the right time to refresh the squad, to recycle out players. Even when they were our best players like Beckham, Keane and Van Nistlerooy.

Liverpool will have three major challenges with their refresh: 1) Form, 2) COVID and 3) FSG. The form of their best players isn't what it was, which has reduced their value. COVID has wrecked most buying clubs' finances so there won't be more Coutinho cash coming. FSG clearly aren't interested in turning the taps on, especially with COVID still a factor, so they won't be able to spend that much to freshen up the squad. They bought quite well last summer but its clearly going to be a gradual thing.
 

sidsutton

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I created the thread for us last year and look what happened. :p

Good OP though and I think you're right that there are several smaller issues piling on top of each other all at once. This is my take:

- Injuries: Yes everyone has them but ours have impacted not only personnel/quality but also other areas of the pitch. Losing all three CB's has led to Fabinho playing at CB. He's done a fantastic job but I think we've missed him in midfield and lack another player who can do that job as well as he can. Henderson isn't that kind of player and Wijnaldum isn't either. Thiago has been playing there recently but lacks the legs to do it effectively off the ball. That's why he keeps going to ground all the time.
Further to this, losing Fabinho to the CB position has meant that we have one less midfielder to play, which means someone like Henderson or Thiago has to fill that roll and then we only have Wijnaldum, Milner, Jones and Shaqiri left (Keita isn't really an option and never has been long term). Jota's injury has also damaged us due to lack of competition which has led to poor, complacent performances in the front three imo.

- Fullbacks: Alexander-Arnold has had a poor season. His numbers are down and he only has two assists all season. We built our attack on the effectiveness of our full backs to create and supply the front three (front two really due to Firmino's drop off as a goal threat). Robertson more recently looks like he's struggling a bit as well. We brought Thiago in to offer another option when we have lots of the ball but he's now having to play as a deeper midfielder because Fabinho isn't there. I think Klopp did this assuming that teams would eventually learn to defend the wide areas better to prevent us from creating as much. This is now happening but we're not able to compensate via our midfield, which has been entirely functional over the last two years, not creative.

- Natural regression: We've just had two back to back seasons getting 97 & 99 points. City finished 17/18 on 100 points & 18/19 on 98 points. They then dropped off massively in 19/20 and won't break 90 points again this season. This is because it isn't possible to maintain those standards for longer than two seasons imo. The Premier League is always changing and teams are always adapting. It takes a huge effort to break 90 points in England and isn't sustainable over a long period covering multiple seasons.

- The front three: They've been together since January 17/18 (when Coutinho) left. That's a long time for a front three to be played together without competition or challenge. I think come complacency has set in. It's no secret that Firmino can't be considered a serious goal threat any more. He rarely looks threatening in front of goal. This might be because his role has changed in the team but he's still a no. 9 and isn't offering that threat. Salah has fantastic goal stats this season but if he's not scoring he really isn't offering everything. He scored two yesterday but I thought he had a poor game. He was dispossessed in that channel numerous times in the first half and gave United a platform to break from. Mane looks like he needs a rest. Physically I've noticed he seems to be losing 50/50's and looks physically shot. This area of the pitch needs a refresh. Jota was brought in and hit the ground running but then...injured for two months. He's back soon and I expect this to help. Origi, Minamino, Chamberlain...none of them are good enough to replace Salah or Mane.

- Teams learning how to play against us: This happens in football and the team at the top always has a target on their back. Teams have adapted to defend more effectively and targeted our right hand side as a weak point (this has been the case for a while).

I also think certain players have had their heads turned. Salah has been linked with a move away and Wijnaldum is leaving in the summer.

I don't think we're dead and buried though. I see enough when we play to see that if we can click up top again, we'll be an issue for everyone. We'll end up in the top four imo.
what's up with Keita? Came for decent money and made little impact, even when fit. Do you think he will be moved on?
 

Klopper76

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what's up with Keita? Came for decent money and made little impact, even when fit. Do you think he will be moved on?
Injured all the time. Whenever he's fit again he's very quickly injured and out for 3/4 weeks. I think he's unreliable. Not bad when he plays but doesn't play anywhere near enough to justify his fee.

I'd put him in the flop bracket actually.
 

Acheron

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They're on free fall at the moment but it looks that other teams aren't in their best shape either so they're still capable of climbing back positions and try to challenge for the title. Maybe it's time for them to renovate their front three
 

No Spring Chicken

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Had a proper look at the fixture list today and crikey this is a critical time for Liverpool. Their next six games are against Spurs away, West Ham away, Brighton home, City home, Leicester away & Everton home. All of those teams bar Brighton are either neck and neck with Liverpool or ahead, and most of the teams on the edge of the top 4 have games in hand. Its like a long run of 6 pointers.

A nightmare scenario could be something like lose to Spurs, draw to West Ham, beat Brighton, lose to City and Leicester then draw to Everton. That would make top 4 very difficult and the league would be all but gone. Thing is though, on current form, they're not exactly impossible results. In reality, I doubt they'll drop points to West Ham or Everton, but its really hard to see them playing Spurs, City and Leicester and coming away with 9 points. They don't exactly need 6 straight wins to stay in touch, but even 2 defeats in that run could be fatal, since they're against direct rivals.

The game against Spurs in particular is huge. Lose that and they probably find themselves in 7th place by the time they play West Ham on Sunday, without even having games in hand. Worse still, Spurs are probably the last team that Liverpool want to play now. They've struggled against teams that pack the box and sit deep with loads of men, and Jose needs no second invitation to do that. He'll fancy Kane and Son up against Liverpool's makeshift CBs on the counter, and who can blame him.

On the other hand if they beat Spurs this week then they have a great chance to turn around their form, with two winnable games before playing City in a few weeks time. Three wins on the bounce would do them the world of good going into that City game. The whole season is so finely balanced for them, it could go either way in the next 3 weeks. Turn around their form and they could be right back challenging at the top again. Carry on as they have been and they could be sat in 7th with Villa and Chelsea breathing down their necks. A real example of how insanely tight things are this season.
 
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romufc

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Everyone calling it a crap league and what not, this is the most enjoyable league season in a while. 3 wins on the bounce and you are in with a chance with the title. Every game is difficult, what the PL is known for.

Every result is huge, teams cannot afford to drop points.

Liverpool play teams around them, so win all and you are favourites for the title, not only winning your games but taking points of teams around you, which is what makes this season interesting, teams up till 9th can go on a title winning run.
 

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@#07 pardon me if I missed it in your OP but you failed to mention injuries. Or you failed to link the majority of our problems this season with injuries.

If Utd from Oct/Nov lost Maguire and Bailly for the remainder of the season and only had Lindelof available one every four games would you still be top of the league and be confident of remaining there until May? I would hazard a strong No from you?

I'll further add, if Bailly was available more reliably beginning of this season would you have qualified past PSG and Leipzig? For me that answer would be Yes absolutely you would.

So, yeah, injuries. Everything else you say makes sense from a usual season perspective but not this season. We are not moaning about these injuries by the way, they happen and we have to see it through. You lot did the same last season when you were injury plagued.
 

#07

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@#07 pardon me if I missed it in your OP but you failed to mention injuries. Or you failed to link the majority of our problems this season with injuries.

If Utd from Oct/Nov lost Maguire and Bailly for the remainder of the season and only had Lindelof available one every four games would you still be top of the league and be confident of remaining there until May? I would hazard a strong No from you?

I'll further add, if Bailly was available more reliably beginning of this season would you have qualified past PSG and Leipzig? For me that answer would be Yes absolutely you would.

So, yeah, injuries. Everything else you say makes sense from a usual season perspective but not this season. We are not moaning about these injuries by the way, they happen and we have to see it through. You lot did the same last season when you were injury plagued.
Injuries was my second point, related to the condensed calendar.
 

Dumbstar

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Injuries was my second point, related to the condensed calendar.
After really, really straining my eyes (not great coming out of looking at a spreadsheet for the last hour at work) I found something:

"The next problem is related to the condensed calendar: injuries. Yes, everyone has them"

Really? That's it? :)
 

#07

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After really, really straining my eyes (not great coming out of looking at a spreadsheet for the last hour at work) I found something:

"The next problem is related to the condensed calendar: injuries. Yes, everyone has them"

Really? That's it? :)
Yes because my core point was Klopp is having to deal with injuries and trying to minimise injuries. Both issues have forced him to change your playing style. The style that made you successful over recent years cannot hold up with so many games stacked on top of each other. As soon as you started to lose players it was shown and if you lose more players, through muscle injuries resulting from hard running, the problem will get worse.
 

RobinLFC

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Yes because my core point was Klopp is having to deal with injuries and trying to minimise injuries. Both issues have forced him to change your playing style. The style that made you successful over recent years cannot hold up with so many games stacked on top of each other. As soon as you started to lose players it was shown and if you lose more players, through muscle injuries resulting from hard running, the problem will get worse.
This is very short-sighted. Van Dijk was an impact injury (ACL tear, not a "muscle injury"), and Joe Gomez has a ruptured patellar tendon which also isn't a muscle injury. Jota and Thiago both had knee injuries (and weren't with us during those previous "years of hard running"). The only muscle injury was Alexander-Arnold with a calf strain.

Injuries happen, we just had some bad luck with them during a short period. There's none evidence whatsoever that the injuries this season can be attributed to "hard running and games stacked on top of each other", or due to our pressing tactics like I've seen suggested as well.
 

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Even with zero setbacks, their form was going to fall off drastically at some point. They were never that good as their record suggested. The eye test and numbers were confirming that, yet for some time they simply couldn't stop winning. Their winning record was built on confidence, momentum, and prolonged sequence of events in which seemingly everything went their way.

Mind, they're a very good and well coached team that can still find their form and fight for the title.
 

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This is very short-sighted. Van Dijk was an impact injury (ACL tear, not a "muscle injury"), and Joe Gomez has a ruptured patellar tendon which also isn't a muscle injury. Jota and Thiago both had knee injuries (and weren't with us during those previous "years of hard running"). The only muscle injury was Alexander-Arnold with a calf strain.

Injuries happen, we just had some bad luck with them during a short period. There's none evidence whatsoever that the injuries this season can be attributed to "hard running and games stacked on top of each other", or due to our pressing tactics like I've seen suggested as well.
Disregarding the fact, that most of the injuries you mention come from other sources than muscles, muscles are still what withstands a lot of pressure of important body functions. Van Dijk's injury is obviously not related to strain on the muscles, we all know, but most of the injuries you see are more than likely connected to fatigue from the very demanding form of football that Klopp practices. Fatigued muscles can withstand less pressure from physical contact, what I believe OP is trying to refer to - instead of just direct muscle injuries.
 

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Yes because my core point was Klopp is having to deal with injuries and trying to minimise injuries. Both issues have forced him to change your playing style. The style that made you successful over recent years cannot hold up with so many games stacked on top of each other. As soon as you started to lose players it was shown and if you lose more players, through muscle injuries resulting from hard running, the problem will get worse.
Ok that makes sense. Like I say, apologies for not getting it the first time.

I think to evaluate, or - in cases of where teams drop form - over-evaluate, what a manager can do in such a period is probably fruitless. It really is a waiting game rather than a changing game.
 

#07

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Ok that makes sense. Like I say, apologies for not getting it the first time.

I think to evaluate, or - in cases of where teams drop form - over-evaluate, what a manager can do in such a period is probably fruitless. It really is a waiting game rather than a changing game.
I largely agree.

People laughed when Ole and Klopp were complaining about the schedule earlier in the season. However, the schedule has a massive impact on what you can and can't expect your team to do.

Klopp puts a lot of emphasis on outworking the opposition (as does Ole). His 'heavy metal football' is not about patient, Spanish style build up. Of course, Liverpool have enough good players that you can play a more tiki taka game. However, what Klopp ideally wants is directness, pressure, high turnovers and constant attacks that overwhelm opponents.

If you try to play that way 60 times a season its a stretch, hence why Klopp has had a casual attitude towards domestic cups at Liverpool. To my mind, he recognises that he can't just keep flogging the same players over and over. So Liverpool have basically disregarded the cups since Klopp's been your coach. If you try to play that way with the calendar as it is this season, when you have to play every three days pretty much from start to end, then its going to put a huge strain on your squad.

Despite him not being my favourite person, I respect Klopp enough as a coach to see what he's trying to do. Rather than just roll out cliches like 'Thiago just slows it all down' or 'the full backs just aren't giving what they used to.' Those kind of easy, basically unthinking comments seem bizarre to me. They also show no understanding of the various issues Klopp (and every other coach who has to balance domestic and European competition in this hugely condensed season) has to deal with.

Disregarding the fact, that most of the injuries you mention come from other sources than muscles, muscles are still what withstands a lot of pressure of important body functions. Van Dijk's injury is obviously not related to strain on the muscles, we all know, but most of the injuries you see are more than likely connected to fatigue from the very demanding form of football that Klopp practices. Fatigued muscles can withstand less pressure from physical contact, what I believe OP is trying to refer to - instead of just direct muscle injuries.
Exactly.
 

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I'll laugh like a madman if they actually end up 5th (Utd-City, Leicester, Spurs).
 

RobinLFC

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Disregarding the fact, that most of the injuries you mention come from other sources than muscles, muscles are still what withstands a lot of pressure of important body functions. Van Dijk's injury is obviously not related to strain on the muscles, we all know, but most of the injuries you see are more than likely connected to fatigue from the very demanding form of football that Klopp practices. Fatigued muscles can withstand less pressure from physical contact, what I believe OP is trying to refer to - instead of just direct muscle injuries.
Even then, again, there is no evidence whatsoever that Klopp's brand of football is more taxing on the bodies or more likely to get his players injured than any other manager's. Otherwise how'd you even explain the fact that we were relatively injury free for his first four seasons anyway? I just don't really get the "well those injuries were bound to happen with how Klopp has them playing" argument.

Thiago and Jota weren't with us before this season, Van Dijk was a contact injury. That leaves TAA's calf strain (minor and not unusual) and Gomez' injury which was sustained during England training and I don't think we know that it was a contact injury or not.
 

90 + 5min

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Injured all the time. Whenever he's fit again he's very quickly injured and out for 3/4 weeks. I think he's unreliable. Not bad when he plays but doesn't play anywhere near enough to justify his fee.

I'd put him in the flop bracket actually.
Yours Phil Jones.

There is quality and there is talent. But playing once in 3 years don't do you any good.
 

Zlatan 7

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Even then, again, there is no evidence whatsoever that Klopp's brand of football is more taxing on the bodies or more likely to get his players injured than any other manager's. Otherwise how'd you even explain the fact that we were relatively injury free for his first four seasons anyway? I just don't really get the "well those injuries were bound to happen with how Klopp has them playing" argument.

Thiago and Jota weren't with us before this season, Van Dijk was a contact injury. That leaves TAA's calf strain (minor and not unusual) and Gomez' injury which was sustained during England training and I don't think we know that it was a contact injury or not.
so all this talk of Liverpool struggling with injuries but really you’re only missing one player who played last year anyway.
 

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so all this talk of Liverpool struggling with injuries but really you’re only missing one player who played last year anyway.
And Joe Gomez does not exist anymore.
 

RobinLFC

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Oh, two. I thought you were having a season long injury crisis, I must have dreamt it.
We have struggled with injuries, regardless of whether those players were at the club last season or not.

The whole point here was that it can't be proven that it's down to Klopp's methods. Which you competely, completely missed just in order to have a dig at Liverpool. Congrats.
 

Cheimoon

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so all this talk of Liverpool struggling with injuries but really you’re only missing one player who played last year anyway.
I think @Klopper76 explained it somewhere, but the issue is also that, because of the CB issues, they have to put starting midfielders there, which in turn means having to move others elsewhere. Fabinho is a good CB, but now Thiago has to play his position, which is not his strength, and someone else has to fill in elsewhere. So as it's playing out for Liverpool, their CB injuries go further than just having to play with back-up in that position.

Just to provide some nuance there. They still shouldn't be losing to Burnley etc., obviously.
 

Zlatan 7

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We have struggled with injuries, regardless of whether those players were at the club last season or not.

The whole point here was that it can't be proven that it's down to Klopp's methods. Which you competely, completely missed just in order to have a dig at Liverpool. Congrats.
But what injuries? Genuinely asking because if it’s only two players you had last year what other players and injuries? No niggly little muscle injuries for a game or two you’re ignoring for you argument? Just vvd and Gomez, that’s it?
As for the end of your post, what are you even on about? I’m trying to work out whether you’re having a injury hit season or not as your argument seemed to be saying you wasn’t
 

RobinLFC

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I think @Klopper76 explained it somewhere, but the issue is also that, because of the CB issues, they have to put starting midfielders there, which in turn means having to move others elsewhere. Fabinho is a good CB, but now Thiago has to play his position, which is not his strength, and someone else has to fill in elsewhere. So as it's playing out for Liverpool, their CB injuries go further than just having to play with back-up in that position.

Just to provide some nuance there. They still shouldn't be losing to Burnley etc., obviously.
Cheers. That's indeed one of the consequences. It's still not an excuse, as our dire (back-up) CB situation was obvious before the season started and we didn't address it properly.
 

Zlatan 7

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I think @Klopper76 explained it somewhere, but the issue is also that, because of the CB issues, they have to put starting midfielders there, which in turn means having to move others elsewhere. Fabinho is a good CB, but now Thiago has to play his position, which is not his strength, and someone else has to fill in elsewhere. So as it's playing out for Liverpool, their CB injuries go further than just having to play with back-up in that position.

Just to provide some nuance there. They still shouldn't be losing to Burnley etc., obviously.
Thanks, I understand all that and it makes sense, but according to the poster I was replying to they are only missing two centre backs, and that’s caused all this drama?
 

tomaldinho1

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As funny as I find their situation, they're still in the race and have had some horrible injuries in key positions.

VVD is literally one of the world's best CBs - for many THE best, then they lose Gomez, Matip....they have so few options it's made them play Fabinho (their best and probably only true DM) at CB. Add in Jota who was pressuring Firmino (who has been cack this season) and Keita seems a bit of a Phil Jones lite.

Essentially their defence went from being arguably the best in the league to a mid table unit, their midfield loses it's best DM (plus Henderson if he also plays CB) and becomes average and the forward line has been out of form with no depth bar the cube. Yet they are still top four, despite playing poorly. I loathe them but they are still definitely in with a chance of finishing above us and, although I don't think they will catch City, retaining the title.
 

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what's up with Keita? Came for decent money and made little impact, even when fit. Do you think he will be moved on?
I remember Jamie Redknapp on commentary seven minutes into his debut lauding him saying he looks like he's been there for years
Was a bit OTT

I'm very surprised Liverpool don't have a good youth CB or haven't managed to get one on loan or signed yet this late into January
 

RobinLFC

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Thanks, I understand all that and it makes sense, but according to the poster I was replying to they are only missing two centre backs, and that’s caused all this drama?
This is very short-sighted. Van Dijk was an impact injury (ACL tear, not a "muscle injury"), and Joe Gomez has a ruptured patellar tendon which also isn't a muscle injury. Jota and Thiago both had knee injuries (and weren't with us during those previous "years of hard running"). The only muscle injury was Alexander-Arnold with a calf strain.
Are you just willfully ignoring and/or misinterpreting my posts or what's going on here?

Add to that injuries to Alisson, Matip, Milner, Shaqiri, Oxlade-Chamberlain and Keita, and having to miss Mane and Salah for some time due to positive Covid-19 tests and you might get an idea why people say we've struggled with injuries this season.
 

djembatheking

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Klopps poor squad management and rotation is starting to tell . Losing 2 players to injury shouldn`t result in such a huge drop off in performance as the recent games have shown. They have been dogshit for a while now.
 

djembatheking

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Are you just willfully ignoring and/or misinterpreting my posts or what's going on here?

Add to that injuries to Alisson, Matip, Milner, Shaqiri, Oxlade-Chamberlain and Keita, and having to miss Mane and Salah for some time due to positive Covid-19 tests and you might get an idea why people say we've struggled with injuries this season.
Those players have been back recently, team have still been shite.
 

Flexdegea

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People are over thinking it and over complicating em.........

It's boils down to the fact they are currently a bad lot.


Wasn't that long ago everybody was wa#king and about them coping so well without van Dik.


City and United have massively rattled them and it shows in the manager, who hasn't came off well this last month with the obsession about penalties etc.......the panick from him is showing a fair bit in the team.
 

Zlatan 7

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Are you just willfully ignoring and/or misinterpreting my posts or what's going on here?

Add to that injuries to Alisson, Matip, Milner, Shaqiri, Oxlade-Chamberlain and Keita, and having to miss Mane and Salah for some time due to positive Covid-19 tests and you might get an idea why people say we've struggled with injuries this season.
Who were there last year!! As you already said. You are just too busy trying to be clever with your replies.

so there have been more injuries apart from the 2 you mentioned (WHO WERE THERE LAST YEAR, to be clear). I’m guessing none of those were muscle injuries or you would have mentioned those too in your previous post about how the style hasn’t caused injuries.
 

RobinLFC

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Who were there last year!! As you already said. You are just too busy trying to be clever with your replies.

so there have been more injuries apart from the 2 you mentioned (WHO WERE THERE LAST YEAR, to be clear). I’m guessing none of those were muscle injuries or you would have mentioned those too in your previous post about how the style hasn’t caused injuries.
So now prove to me that those injuries are down to our style of play then?

Alisson is a keeper, Keita, Oxlade-Chamberlain and Matip are always injured. None of that is down to Klopp. We could cope with them being injured in the past but once they are out and your starting XI players get injured for some reason or another, you'll struggle.

Apart from this whole "injury crisis" discussion, it's just the fact that people (not necessarily you) are so quick to jump on our injuries to have a dig at Klopp that annoys me. It's not our style that caused those injuries. It's not Klopp running his players into the ground. It's just bad injury luck in one season, which happens to every team. It's also not an excuse. Saying that we've struggled with injuries is not an excuse as to why we've been shit the last month. It's just a statement. When Utd had their "injury crisis" moments the last few seasons, it was just "terrible luck with injuries" rather than "Ole is running his team into the ground" as well.