Reading the first few pages of this thread is fun
Liverpool 2022/23
- Thread starter Klopper76
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
They’re already lower than Ole took us and Klopp will be allowed to take them even lower. It’s a wonderful situation to watch unfold as a rival. I just hope he plays Henderson against Real Madrid again.
Doesn't look that far fetched anymore. Infact, looks almost a certainty they'll miss top 4 with the way they're playing. Well done.
They're free falling at the moment.
Can't deny what a joy it is to see this happening to Liverpool in particular, after the media fellating them endlessly, the absurd degrees of pure luck they continue to have, and refs doing everything in their power to help them for the last few years. For them to still be in utter disarray despite having every conceivable advantage is just delightful.
Nah, they made some big acquisitions. It's a nonsense narrative (also for United). They've just been going about squad building all wrong for a bit now (possibly because Klopp has gotten too much influence on it), and the result is something that just doesn't work, and is probably currently pulling them into a downward spiral where they're mentally weak and performing below their ability.
Need Liverpool to go out of the champions league and finish outside the top 4 before I can really start enjoying their current form.
Just to make sure, Konate is now injured. Our best (only) defender left that was worth his salary. Yes he will miss the real Madrid game for those salivating in anticipation.
Looking forward to reports he’s touch and go for the United game in a few weeks.
Fingers crossed Nunez and Gakpo are fit to play though.
Fingers crossed Nunez and Gakpo are fit to play though.
I'm basing this on nothing atall, but I am convinced they'll somehow get past Madrid.
Another Elliott 1-0 win after a 0-0 first leg
Another Elliott 1-0 win after a 0-0 first leg
I remember few people clamouring for us to sign him when you did, but his injury record was always a worry and was why I personally didn't fancy the gamble with our crocks in defence at the time.
It's a shame, because on his day, he's a hell of a CB.
Its like if United fans kept complaining that Jones is always injured.
He's not quite there yet, but certainly a worrying trait for him.
I don't see how that's even remotely possible. This season is done and I think we've messed up in this window by going for another winger instead of looking at our midfield. It's even more frustrating when Chelsea are spending more in one window than we have in ages, and Arsenal are doing what we should've done when we were top of the league, proactively improving the side in key areas.
Don't even get me started on the medical department. I think I read that we haven't had a club doctor all season and when you see how many injuries we're getting, you know there's more to it than just bad luck.
I don't see myself ever turning on Klopp but we look miles off right now, which is crazy considering this squad of players only lost 4 games out of 63 last season.
The more I read the more it seems everything is in a bit of a mess.
What’s happened?!
I think it's a number of issues all piling up on top of each other:
1. The squad is older and now (I think) the third oldest in the league.
2. This means that we don't have the personnel to implement Klopp's football and so everyone is playing through us. This has also led to our back four being exposed.
3. We haven't invested in the midfield enough and so the above is an even bigger issue. Fabinho has declined massively, Henderson is too old, Thiago is basically managing our midfield on his own, Keita has never been that player. Bajcetic has been playing recently because of how short we are. We still haven't replaced Wijnaldum (who was a massive player for us).
4. Klopp's tactical inflexibility has been exposed. He has one way of playing which he can tweak slightly but it still remains the same. His plan A is very good but as soon as he doesn't have the right players or it stops working, he doesn't have the answer to fix it. Or maybe he does but it will take a while to get there.
5. We don't have a club doctor and haven't since August. Our injuries seem to have piled up this season. Diaz was injured for a couple of months against Arsenal and then as soon as he was fit, got injured again. Jota's spent most of the season out and other players have been in and out of the side as well.
6. Replacing Mane with Nunez. I like Nunez and think he can develop into a very good player for us, but he isn't Mane. Mane was very good on the ball and had physical attributes that made him very hard to deal with. Losing him was a massive blow.
7. Salah. He's been in poor form for over a year now. He doesn't look like he's suited to playing wide right any more. I don't know why Klopp doesn't put him up front with Nunez. Seems like it would sort him out.
8. Our malfunctioning midfield has exposed Alexander-Arnold's weaknesses defensively more than I've ever seen since he started playing for the first team. He shouldn't be playing at RB but Klopp persists with it.
9. Other players have dropped off in terms of form. Robertson hasn't been great imo. Matip has been poor and so has Van Dijk. Henderson's had an awful season as has Salah. It's actually hard for me to point to anyone apart from Alisson and say that they've had a good season. Konate maybe and Thiago but that's it.
10. Our transfer strategy hasn't been right recently. Signing Gakpo in this window instead of a midfielder is symbolic of that.
11. Everyone else. It's not just an internal thing. Arsenal have massively improved massively. City signed Haaland and aren't going away any time soon. Newcastle have been playing well for about 12 months now (their defensive record is impressive). United have improved under ETH. Spurs have a very good manager in Conte despite everything, Chelsea are spending crazy money and you'd think will improve (they kind of have to). Then you've got a club like Brighton who are incredibly well run. Nobody stands still and it feels like we have a bit too much whilst we were on top competing for everything.
12. We need new owners. FSG's model worked with Klopp but it isn't now. Money is everywhere in the Premier League and without it you're kind of fighting an uphill battle. FSG haven't been bad owners (it's different to the Glazer's at United for example) but yeah, we'll struggle to complete with them at the helm.
There you go, some of my thoughts on everything.
Thanks for taking the time. interesting seeing your views and that’s quite a long list of different things all collapsing at the same time.
In terms of point 4, is this why some have turned on Pep Lijnders?
The recruitment has gone very strange from the outside looking in I must say. Not even due to FSG but the actual choices being made.
I still don’t see the logic in Gakpo or blowing the budget on Nunez. As the season goes on and you struggle in midfield the Arthur deal looks another weird one even down to the fact you haven’t sent him back and looked at another loan. Sabitzer for instance would have suited you surely?
The Lijnders stuff is weird. I've never known a number two to get so much attention. For me the buck stops at the manager. Ultimately Klopp is the manager and has to take responsibility.
I think Nunez might make sense in a few years but for the money we spent you'd expect more than we've had so far. I'm not a fan of Gakpo so far. I think he'll struggle but maybe it's a coaching issue. Melo was one of the stupidest panic buys we've ever made. We were in for Tchouameni but Madrid beat us to him, then we sat on our hands until the last day of the window and decided that we should loan someone to fill a spot. Awful really and very much poor planning from the club/Klopp.
As an outsider looking in, I agree with all of that.
I think there is also a clear difference in mentality from certain players when their form drops.
TAA wanders back and rarely tracks runners and appears to shrug it off and repeats the same mistake. Jogging about and not bothering, whilst highlights poor defensive awareness, also signals a mentality issue. Almost seems arrogant.
Robertson on the contrast, absolutely bursts a gut every game. It’s a no brainer as to why he’s captain. He’s been quite poor but I’d imagine difficult to drop despite having a back up for him.
I think Edwards leaving and the replacements going one by one this season is strange too. I’m sure I read Klopp and Ljinders are having stronger involvement in recruitment now? Not sure if that’s deliberate or even true.
midfield is collectively “done”
TAA is a player who looks like he’s lost his hunger
VVD is not the same player after his injury
Injuries to Jota and Diaz. They are big players
TAA is a player who looks like he’s lost his hunger
VVD is not the same player after his injury
Injuries to Jota and Diaz. They are big players
Easily the most frustrating aspect of Alexander-Arnold's game. To me it seems like he doesn't care about the defensive side of the game. He should be moved higher up the pitch imo.
Yeah I heard that too. Prior to that I think we had a whole recruitment team structured to look at and advise Klopp accordingly. I always felt that Klopp's biggest priority was the personality of the player and how it would impact the group.
Honestly if we're talking about tactics, I don't think Klopp has ever been especially strong. He has his way of playing and shows little regard for the opposition. I think it's a big difference between him and someone like Pep. Pep has his way of playing but he'll change his team and put more thought into the oppositon (sometimes too much). I think it's why we've been a mixed bag in finals.
Madrid will absolutely hammer them
What is wrong with them this year? They play like it's not even worth it, that their opponent is so strong that it's just best to get done with the misery quickly and move on...and it's Wolves! Their core players TAA, Salah, Fabinho VVD look to have regressed significantly, their new signings are all flops, and Allison seems to be their best player after letting in 3 goals in the game. I think the last time I've seen something like this happen was with...well Klopp's Dortmund in 2013. The only major team change they've had is Nunez for Mane. Surely this can't have that much of an effect?
Despite the poor season they were having I was still thinking they had a chance of playing ucl football next season by possibly winning the ucl this season as they have form for being a different beast in the champions league but they are just so flat that I can not imagine they can in any way turn it round for ucl ties.
They’ve had an awful season but watch them storm the Cl now. Unlikely I know but they’re usually a team that turn up in Europe.
If Madrid don’t shit the bed at Anfield, they’ll progress comfortably enough as I don’t see Liverpool laying a glove on them at the Bernabeu. Liverpool’s away form this season is a complete abomination and Madrid should control that game from minute 1 to 90.
Why isn't there a club doctor? Seems unusual?
I think you’ve got to question the phycological effects of coming close to winning trophies for the last few years and ending up with just league cups. Then expecting your board to bring in great players to really push City and instead letting some of your quality back up and replacing them with players like Diaz, Jota, Nunez, Gakpo, who if they ever come good, it won’t be for another 3 seasons or so, at which point most of the guys currently playing will be retired.
They came so close last year that there's definitely been some sort of psychological impact on the players of putting in so much effort for nothing in return.
He's only ever had plan A. The whole game plan was based on swarming and out running the opposition high up the pitch. They've all run out of legs, and aren't capable of covering the ground anymore.
He tried to bring in Thiago to control games more, but all it did was slow them down in transitons when they won the ball back. Last season they smashed teams early and sat back and saw out games. They don't have the fire power up top to do that now.
He's lost Mane, who was a big part of that, more so than Firminho or Salah. The midfield is shite, he's down to relying on Ox and Elliott in there. Henderson, Thiago, Milner etc are all just too slow now. Fabinho has no legs and no protection in front of him. Keita is awful, a truly terrible player.
TAA can't defend. Add in Salah who's put his feet up since he got his new deal in front of him on the right and it's a massive weak spot. Diaz/Jota are injured and they miss that energy up top.
VVD has lost a half a yard of pace, he also doesn't trust himself to go too high because he can only turn one way since he came back from the Pickford incident and ends up getting caught in no man's land when he does. The other CBs aren't really that good, for a long time they had the protection of the midfield doing all the running in front of them and a fully fit VVD basically being a one man defence. They don't have that are getting ruthlessly exposed.
I remember when a Liverpool fan was caught stealing a seat at the Molineux… disgrace fans. Not sure if we had VAR then but they’d of probably reviewed it and said the fan was installing them 
This was a truly shocking and seeing your small teen DM struggle at key moments defensively made it worse.
It's cup football so you could still beat Madrid. Is Klopp willing to play on the break and bench TAA in the Bernabeu?
They have problems all over the pitch, I don't even think midfield was that bad yesterday. The CBs and attackers though are a different story.
Calamitous defending and then front three and Keita looking so disjoint in creating for each other. Nunez and Salah are missing chances while Gakpo looks devoid of any rhythm in his play.
Calamitous defending and then front three and Keita looking so disjoint in creating for each other. Nunez and Salah are missing chances while Gakpo looks devoid of any rhythm in his play.
Basically their midfield are no longer able to press and this exposes their defense. They might conceded 3 but could still score 3 if they are more clinical. But Nunez can’t finish his chances.
At what point do they look nervously down the table?
Their fixture list over the next 6 weeks is horrendous and they can’t beat anybody right now
Their fixture list over the next 6 weeks is horrendous and they can’t beat anybody right now
I get your reasoning, but its literally the same team - Mane + Nunez and Gakpo, + 6 months extra of ageing. Its not possible for the team en masse to lose their legs in this period. They've been without Mane before, during Afcon period for eg, and have done well. Now they're shivering at the thought of playing a relegation battling Everton at home.
Everything that had worked for them in the previous seasons - modern full backs, counter pressing, high tempo etc had now absolutely deserted them. Its not like Klopp's tactics were suddenly unravelled by opponents after 7 years. Their players have gone from "best in position" to being internet memes.
There is something seriously psychologically wrong there that defies logic.
We appear to be legitimately better than them now. Not only tactically and collectively (which is pretty obvious), but also individually man for man.
Didnt I read that their club doctor ended up joining us? But its strange if they didnt end up replacing him..
There is a massive drop off in quality and understanding from Mane to Nunez and Gakpo. Even Jota and Diaz would be a massive upgrade on those two.
The psychological aspect cannot be denied.
As a collective group they just seem to have lost the motivation and belief to keep putting in the same effort.
Add in 6/7 years of a relentless game with little in the way of changes or refreshment and it's not impossible that they could all just be out of the legs to keep that same level going. Look at that midfield, Henderson, Milner, Thiago etc all the wrong side of 30. Fabinho/Ox 29. There's a massive rebuild needed there.
The problem is not his tactics, it is more that the players are no longer capable of putting in the extreme effort game after game to make them work. Salah doesn't press, he just stands there. The other forwards don't press with the same intelligence or aggression. The midfield don't have the energy to close down the gaps in behind them like before and because of that teams are just getting out and are straight at the back 4 with little effort.
People say massive rebuild but our midfield was absolutely garbage and afew additions and it’s now the complete opposite…it’s just really really hard even for top managers to hit it right with each buy…and for clubs like us and Liverpool you can’t just write them off ala city and Chelsea and fix that error quickly. If Sancho and Antony were as good as we thought from the get go we’d be in a title race right now. I think Bellingham (for example), and all the players back could spark them back to being a cohesive team again.