Liverpool - Premier League champions 19/20 Season

dbs235

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Read the thread.
Got to be honest, Mane and VDV definitely weren't superstars when they bought them. Neither were others like Salah, Firmino, Robertson. Allison was known as a top keeper thought yeah. Fabinho was probably the 2nd most highly rated player when they bought him I'd say.
 

Dec9003

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You can’t break transfer fee records and pretend you’ve unearthed a gem.
Klopp has bought brilliantly, but he has bought superstars.
I’m not sure why that would be seen as a bad thing anyway though. Plenty of teams have bought quality players only to have them struggle once they’ve made the move, so it’s still impressive that they’ve bought well even if they’ve payed a a lot of money.
 

MackRobinson

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You can’t break transfer fee records and pretend you’ve unearthed a gem.
Klopp has bought brilliantly, but he has bought superstars.
I’m not sure why that would be seen as a bad thing anyway though. Plenty of teams have bought quality players only to have them struggle once they’ve made the move, so it’s still impressive that they’ve bought well even if they’ve payed a a lot of money.
Look at this link and sort by fee:
https://www.transfermarkt.com/statistik/saisontransfers

What is the cutoff fee for superstars? It's not a sound argument. What Patterson should have said is he bought players with superstar potential (VVD, Allison, Keita) for sums of money most clubs can't afford.
 

Dec9003

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Look at this link and sort by fee:
https://www.transfermarkt.com/statistik/saisontransfers

What is the cutoff fee for superstars? It's not a sound argument. What Patterson should have said is he bought players with superstar potential (VVD, Allison, Keita) for sums of money most clubs can't afford.
Well, breaking the record fee is a pretty good indication of the profile of player a clubs bought, no?
 

MackRobinson

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Well, breaking the record fee is a pretty good indication of the profile of player a clubs bought, no?
It depends on the transfer. In the case of Ronaldo to Juve? Yes. Felix to Atletico? No. I think it's an indication of the current OR expected profile, but I don't think you can label a player as world-class based on his fee. I get the basic premise of what Patterson said but he should have made a more nuanced point.
 

Dec9003

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It depends on the transfer. In the case of Ronaldo to Juve? Yes. Felix to Atletico? No. I think it's an indication of the current OR expected profile, but I don't think you can label a player as world-class based on his fee. I get the basic premise of what Patterson said but he should have made a more nuanced point.
World class and superstar aren’t really the same though I’d argue.
Like with Maguire, I’d actually argue he was a superstar in England, but he’ll likely never be world class.
 

Buchan

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Insecure wankers are at it again! Why can’t they just be happy with their current standing, enjoy it and not give a toss what others think about them? Why the incessant demand for adoration and approval?

Weird cnuts.
 

MackRobinson

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World class and superstar aren’t really the same though I’d argue.
Like with Maguire, I’d actually argue he was a superstar in England, but he’ll likely never be world class.
That's fair I guess. The two terms are synonymous for me as they indicate a player's profile.
 

PickledRed

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Insecure wankers are at it again! Why can’t they just be happy with their current standing, enjoy it and not give a toss what others think about them? Why the incessant demand for adoration and approval?

Weird cnuts.
Insecure wankers are at it again! Why can’t they just appreciate a top side and their current standing, accept it and not give a toss? Why the incessant demand to confect disapproval?

Weird cnuts.
 

Port Vale Devil

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In 20 years time this could possibly be a conversation between a young lad & his Mancunian dad (City or United. Take your pick)

Son : "Dad, me & a few mates were talking in school today about that great Liverpool side managed by Jurgen Klopp"

Dad : "What do you mean 'great' ?. They were the luckiest, most corrupt son's of bitches that ever walked the face of the earth"

Son : "But they looked really good on the youtube video's, & they won 5 league titles plus 3 Champions Leagues"

Dad : " I bet there's nothing on youtube about the scouse footballing illuminati is there ?"

Son : "Don't think so Dad. What is that exactly ?"

Dad : "Thought as much. It was a vermin infiltration of the main media by ex Liverpool players with a view to slowly taking control of not just the media, but the F.A, plus referees & VAR too"

Son : "Wow, that's incredible"

Dad : "Yeah, isn't it just. You'll obviously not read, or see, anything in the press about it of course, because they now control everything. But those of us in the know really knew what was going on behind the scenes"

Son : "Didn't you ever think of getting in touch with that David Icke fellah ? I heard he was really into that type of stuff"

Dad : "We did, but he just laughed & called us a bunch of nutters"

Son : "But with all the money we had, couldn't we have just blown Klopp's sides out of the water ?"

Dad : "Err.....Haven't you got any homework to do lad ?"

Son : "Not homework as such, more of a punishment for talking in class with my mates about that grea...sorry, lucky, Liverpool team. Our teacher has given me a hundred lines to write out"

Dad : "What do you have to write ?"

Son : "I must never, ever, ever, discuss the scouse filth in class again"

Dad : "I like your teacher. Sounds like a clever, well-balanced bloke"
hahaha that is good.
 
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So Liverpool picking up the best part of 200 points over the last 2 seasons and having 1 league title (hopefully) to show for it is now considered lucky, get real. You could easily say that getting to 97 points and not winning it has to be the most unlucky league campaign ever.
You could, but to be honest I thought you were incredibly lucky last season too. I remember feeling pretty smug arguing with my brother (Liverpool fan) about the league as I was convinced that there was no way you could carry that luck into this season and so had missed a big opportunity. As mentioned in my last post, I figured City would be nigh impossible to beat over the course of a season and of the two sides, I thought City were more likely to get even close to that sort of form again, which was unusual for any side. I was horrendously wrong, obviously, partly as I didn't account for your unprecedented levels of fortune this season!

You can claim to make your own luck all you want but opposition players inexplicably missing 5-yard sitters well after Liverpool spurned numerous equally easy chances to put the match to bed by the end of the first hour is not part of Klopp's master plan.
By this logic then City should definitely be top of the league as they've missed a lot more chances than you. How it usually works in football is that you're punished for missing big chances and not putting games to bed in the form of dropped points, as City suffered when players like Shelvey rock up with random 30 yard screamers at the death. Liverpool have somehow managed to defy that despite giving away much better quality chances against better quality players.
 

redman5

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You could, but to be honest I thought you were incredibly lucky last season too. I remember feeling pretty smug arguing with my brother (Liverpool fan) about the league as I was convinced that there was no way you could carry that luck into this season and so had missed a big opportunity. As mentioned in my last post, I figured City would be nigh impossible to beat over the course of a season and of the two sides, I thought City were more likely to get even close to that sort of form again, which was unusual for any side. I was horrendously wrong, obviously, partly as I didn't account for your unprecedented levels of fortune this season!



By this logic then City should definitely be top of the league as they've missed a lot more chances than you. How it usually works in football is that you're punished for missing big chances and not putting games to bed in the form of dropped points, as City suffered when players like Shelvey rock up with random 30 yard screamers at the death. Liverpool have somehow managed to defy that despite giving away much better quality chances against better quality players.
This place, & a lot of other forums it has to be said, has become an absolute ocean of incredulity regarding Liverpool's rise to prominence over the past couple of seasons. It's almost as if after years of laughing & dismissing Liverpool as 'has-beens', people's brains just can't register the fact that we actually have a top class manager who's produced a top class side. No, no, no. There has to be other factors responsible for this. Man City are the golden boys now, so LFC running away with the league has to be down to black magic, or some kind of voodoo. Maybe their players are actually robots taking robotic PED's. Or they could have sold their souls to the devil in return for endless amounts of good luck. Liverpool Football Club don't do successful teams anymore. That's all in the past now. A mere chapter in the footballing history books.

I suspect most of those 'non-believers' weren't around when Liverpool had their successful period during the 70's & 80's. Any United fan under the age of 35-40 would probably only ever remember happy times when it comes to supporting their beloved Manchester United. But now they're having a little taster of what their father's & grandfather's went through, & suddenly the taste ain't quite as sweet as it used to be. But that's life, & that's football unfortunately. Nobody stays at the top forever. We Liverpool fans know that all too well. We were no different of course when it came to United's success under Ferguson. His teams relied on luck, bent refs, & Ferguson having the FA in his pocket.

Another reason people are incredulous is because they watch Pep's City side playing some breathtaking football & quite often thrash teams out of sight. But the fundamental difference between Pep's City & Klopp's Liverpool, apart from their respective playing styles, is that if City play below their best, chances are they'll lose the game. If Liverpool play below their best we more often than not will still get something from the game. That's backed up by the fact that City have lost 6 times in their last 38 league games, whereas Liverpool are still unbeaten over the same period. That's not good fortune, that's a very good football team. It's all very well being selective by pointing out Shelvey's 30 yards screamer, but you fail to mention Kompany's 30 yarder against Leicester at the end of last season. 99 times out of a 100 that goes flying into the stands. At least Shelvey does have a bit of form for long range shooting.

Things can obviously change very quickly in football. We might lose to United on Sunday, & this could be the catalyst for our downfall. We might end up becoming the laughing stock again for United & other rival fans. Who knows ? But as it stands, whilst we Liverpool fans certainly don't expect any praise on a Manchester United forum, perhaps a little bit of self-awareness when discussing Liverpool's current situation would prevent people like me posting responses like this.
 

TheOx

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Good point, redman.

If it wasn't for Kompany's shot going in, they would've lost the league.

Talk about lucky huh.
 

DAK222

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You could, but to be honest I thought you were incredibly lucky last season too. I remember feeling pretty smug arguing with my brother (Liverpool fan) about the league as I was convinced that there was no way you could carry that luck into this season and so had missed a big opportunity. As mentioned in my last post, I figured City would be nigh impossible to beat over the course of a season and of the two sides, I thought City were more likely to get even close to that sort of form again, which was unusual for any side. I was horrendously wrong, obviously, partly as I didn't account for your unprecedented levels of fortune this season!



By this logic then City should definitely be top of the league as they've missed a lot more chances than you. How it usually works in football is that you're punished for missing big chances and not putting games to bed in the form of dropped points, as City suffered when players like Shelvey rock up with random 30 yard screamers at the death. Liverpool have somehow managed to defy that despite giving away much better quality chances against better quality players.
What argument are you even talking about here? I'm not arguing that chances made should translate into league position or something! Just added some missing context to a fellow poster's contribution. Allow me to help you out too.

Liverpool have somehow managed to defy that despite giving away much better quality chances against better quality players.
Many of Liverpool's opponents have somehow managed to escape with narrow losses that give the misleading impression that these games were very close, despite giving away much better quality chances against world class players such as Salah, Firmino, Mane.

And why are City even involved in this discussion? Let's say they won 22/22 games till now. And suppose that except for the City game at Anfield, all other results and more importantly, performances of Liverpool remained the same. Did Liverpool's wins suddenly become less lucky according to you? :houllier:
 

nore1975

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I think coming on a Manchester United forum talking about Liverpool is never elicit a balanced factual discussion from the home posters. In fairness Rawk doesn’t discuss in a serious and interesting way goings on at OT. The thread is purely a piss take on Ole and United in general.
The one angle that might elicit grudging admiration from home posters is that Liverpool have over time and with an eye on FFP developed a sustainable self financing team on the pitch. We as Liverpool supporters shouldn’t need validation from a forum hosting fans of our biggest rival. Our validation is the league table.
 

Stocar

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Good point, redman.

If it wasn't for Kompany's shot going in, they would've lost the league.

Talk about lucky huh.
If it wasn't for several goalkeepers gifts in Liverpool's favour, a sequence that doesn't make any rational sense, they wouldn't be even close to City last season. The latter team simply plays better football. Eye test and advanced stats confirm that. Liverpool are a quality team, and as tough as they come, but their amazing record over last two seasons is a result of number of circumstances going into their favour. I simply don't see an emergence of a dominant footballing force, but a team on a ridiculous run of grinding out results.
 

Liver_bird

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If it wasn't for several goalkeepers gifts in Liverpool's favour, a sequence that doesn't make any rational sense, they wouldn't be even close to City last season. The latter team simply plays better football. Eye test and advanced stats confirm that. Liverpool are a quality team, and as tough as they come, but their amazing record over last two seasons is a result of number of circumstances going into their favour. I simply don't see an emergence of a dominant footballing force, but a team on a ridiculous run of grinding out results.
Judging how I’ve seen you make this post at least 20 times in some variation you must be truly baffled, any thoughts on this phenomenon? Might even be a record of its own!
 

Stocar

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Judging how I’ve seen you make this post at least 20 times in some variation you must be truly baffled, any thoughts on this phenomenon? Might even be a record of its own!
I am genuinely fascinated on many levels. Baffled by levels of improbability, revolted by human stupidity, and amazed at how football seems to reward ugliness and simplicity.
 

TheOx

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If it wasn't for several goalkeepers gifts in Liverpool's favour, a sequence that doesn't make any rational sense, they wouldn't be even close to City last season. The latter team simply plays better football. Eye test and advanced stats confirm that. Liverpool are a quality team, and as tough as they come, but their amazing record over last two seasons is a result of number of circumstances going into their favour. I simply don't see an emergence of a dominant footballing force, but a team on a ridiculous run of grinding out results.
I would agree with you if Liverpool wasn't unbeaten the entire year of 2019. It's unfathomably that anyone would call it a 'ridiculous run of grinding out results'.
 

redman5

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I am genuinely fascinated on many levels. Baffled by levels of improbability, revolted by human stupidity, and amazed at how football seems to reward ugliness and simplicity.
Interestingly enough, nearly 3 years ago you posted this complimentary post about Liverpool :

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/which-current-side-is-the-most-aesthetically-pleasing-football-team.426477/#post-20469136

You claimed that in your opinion Liverpool were the most 'aesthetically pleasing football team'. Just going back to that time, after 21 games we had 45 points. Scored 49 goals, & conceded 24. After 21 games this season we've scored 50 goals & only conceded 14. We also have 61 points. So do we now only score 'boring' goals compared to back then ? Or are just a bit miffed that our defence & keeper just happen to be far superior to that of 2017 ?
 

3KDré

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Read the thread.
Carragher is right. Allison wasn't considered one of the best GKs in the world at the time, nor VVD for CB. Klopp has made Salah, Mane, Trent, Firmino, Robertson all 'superstars' even if you ignore VVD and Allison.
 

Stocar

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You claimed that in your opinion Liverpool were the most 'aesthetically pleasing football team'. Just going back to that time, after 21 games we had 45 points. Scored 49 goals, & conceded 24. After 21 games this season we've scored 50 goals & only conceded 14. We also have 61 points. So do we now only score 'boring' goals compared to back then ? Or are just a bit miffed that our defence & keeper just happen to be far superior to that of 2017 ?
I'm not the only one who thinks that Liverpool were better to watch back then. Although it may be due to other teams setting up more defensively these days. Also, they went from underrated to overrated, with results flattering them, so that may also influence my subjective perception of them.

They are still playing great football, but definitely more conservative and opportunistic than it was before. And it annoys me when people claim that they have this huge advantage on the table simply because they are much better than City these days. I just don't see it.
 

padr81

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This is a strange point to include in the 'lucky' narrative. Show me a winning run of similar length that doesn't include this. United spent a decade winning late - as did Liverpool in the 80s. Two years ago City won late against Southampton and Bournemouth (those two I can remember, could be more). I don't remember that being used as a stick to beat City with, rather it was evidence of their temerity and will to win.

Late goals aren't lucky.
I didn't for a second say lucky, I said got out of the games by the arse of your pants. I actually said you deserved to win every game bar one or two. Of course there was a lucky goal or two in there, just like for us (I remember one vs B'Mouth or maybe Huddersfield going in off Sterlings as while looping over the keeper.) You've had the same. The Mane pen, Henderson in the Sheffield United game. I've also said on here many times you make your own luck through attitude.
 

montpelier

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The ''Jordan Henderson is World class'' claims are starting. Better than Scholes, they are saying.

Where are all the posters who said ''it won't be so bad if they do win it, you guys are exaggerating''?

Clueless fecking fecks, get out here and face it with the rest of us.

And you ''City will win it easy next year'' hexing berks, where are you?

Mid fecking January.
 

Pantscat

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Half of my family are Liverpool supporters and I've been facinated with them ever since I realised, as a kid, that they were our rivals and, therefore, half my family was on the dark side. I watch them more than any team bar United (always have because of family connections, not something recent), and I have a lot of respect for them, despite wanting them to lose. However, I used to always take the piss out of my Liverpool-supporting family in the 90s as they'd always go on about how lucky United were and how the refs were bent, blah blah. I used to think it was funny and saw it as a real dividing line between us (natural winners) and them (natural blame-anyone-else-but-ourselvesers).

It genuinely pains me that United fans have started to become like they were. There are 95 minutes in a football match, the aim is score more goals than your opponents, and you can score in any one of those 95 minutes. Scoring in the 94th minute is no more lucky than scoring in the 18th minute or the 56th minute; it's just one of the 95 minutes in which you're allowed to score.

They're not lucky. They're better than the opposition, and that's why they score more than opposition, just like we did in the 90s. If we keep this stupid narrative going, we will become Liverpool of the 90s, and become losers, and constantly justify it by finding excuses. FFS, they're better than us, and we need to make sure they are no longer better than us pretty bloody soon and not become serial losers and serial justifiers of loss.

I can cope with them happening to be better with us, but I can't cope with us acting like losers in this way. We are bigger than that; we are better than that; we can admit that they just happen to be a better team right now, no excuses. We have to try to be better than them; we have to score in the 94th minute; we have to get that vital VAR goal; we need to be doing all these things, because that's what winners do and we are winners not whining losers.
 
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njred

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I'm not the only one who thinks that Liverpool were better to watch back then. Although it may be due to other teams setting up more defensively these days. Also, they went from underrated to overrated, with results flattering them, so that may also influence my subjective perception of them.

They are still playing great football, but definitely more conservative and opportunistic than it was before. And it annoys me when people claim that they have this huge advantage on the table simply because they are much better than City these days. I just don't see it.
You are correct. We blew teams away two years ago where they couldn’t handle our pressing. But we do play a more managed game now since VVD and came on. Not as pleasing to the eye but way more effective. In other words much better than any team including City.
 

PickledRed

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The ''Jordan Henderson is World class'' claims are starting. Better than Scholes, they are saying.



Mid fecking January.
The ''Jordan Henderson is World class'' claims are an overreach because of the "Horrenderson" stuff we've been reading for years. He's not world class but is a great pro and miles better than a lot suggest.
 

redman5

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I'm not the only one who thinks that Liverpool were better to watch back then. Although it may be due to other teams setting up more defensively these days. Also, they went from underrated to overrated, with results flattering them, so that may also influence my subjective perception of them.

They are still playing great football, but definitely more conservative and opportunistic than it was before. And it annoys me when people claim that they have this huge advantage on the table simply because they are much better than City these days. I just don't see it.
City at their best are better than Liverpool at their best, there's no disputing that. But the fact they've lost more league games than us over the past year strongly suggests there are obvious flaws in the way they play as opposed to us. We're very difficult to beat, even when we don't play well. But as another poster has alluded to, Klopp now plays a more conservative game rather than the 'all-guns-blazing' approach he did in his first couple of years. Good thing from our point of view though is that we still have that in our locker should the need ever arise. I'm not so sure Pep's City have an alternative way of playing. Which would generally be OK & would probably be enough to win regular titles year after year. But if you're faced with a side that very rarely loses, how do you actually combat that ? So given the choice of plaudits for the way we play, & then the ridicule that follows for not winning major silverware. Or Criticism for the way we play, but major trophies in the cabinet. Then I'll making no apologies for going for the latter option.
 

montpelier

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The ''Jordan Henderson is World class'' claims are an overreach because of the "Horrenderson" stuff we've been reading for years. He's not world class but is a great pro and miles better than a lot suggest.
Yeah, you're probably not far off there, Pick. I'd forgotten about the Horrendouson stuff.
 

DAK222

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City at their best are better than Liverpool at their best, there's no disputing that. But the fact they've lost more league games than us over the past year strongly suggests there are obvious flaws in the way they play as opposed to us. We're very difficult to beat, even when we don't play well. But as another poster has alluded to, Klopp now plays a more conservative game rather than the 'all-guns-blazing' approach he did in his first couple of years. Good thing from our point of view though is that we still have that in our locker should the need ever arise. I'm not so sure Pep's City have an alternative way of playing. Which would generally be OK & would probably be enough to win regular titles year after year. But if you're faced with a side that very rarely loses, how do you actually combat that ? So given the choice of plaudits for the way we play, & then the ridicule that follows for not winning major silverware. Or Criticism for the way we play, but major trophies in the cabinet. Then I'll making no apologies for going for the latter option.
If Liverpool end up outscoring City's 100 points, could we then say that Liverpool at their best are better than City at their best?
 

nore1975

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I wouldn’t regard Henderson as world class. That is an insult to the term. He has to be fair to him maximised the ability he does have. Virgil Van Dijk is world class the equal of if not better than others in the position he plays. That should be the litmus test for attributing the term world class to a player.
 

MrVolley

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20 wins/21
A record 104 points over 38 games

FFS. We are nowhere near any of these records that they're setting:(
 

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In 20 years time this could possibly be a conversation between a young lad & his Mancunian dad (City or United. Take your pick)

Son : "Dad, me & a few mates were talking in school today about that great Liverpool side managed by Jurgen Klopp"

Dad : "What do you mean 'great' ?. They were the luckiest, most corrupt son's of bitches that ever walked the face of the earth"

Son : "But they looked really good on the youtube video's, & they won 5 league titles plus 3 Champions Leagues"

Dad : " I bet there's nothing on youtube about the scouse footballing illuminati is there ?"

Son : "Don't think so Dad. What is that exactly ?"

Dad : "Thought as much. It was a vermin infiltration of the main media by ex Liverpool players with a view to slowly taking control of not just the media, but the F.A, plus referees & VAR too"

Son : "Wow, that's incredible"

Dad : "Yeah, isn't it just. You'll obviously not read, or see, anything in the press about it of course, because they now control everything. But those of us in the know really knew what was going on behind the scenes"

Son : "Didn't you ever think of getting in touch with that David Icke fellah ? I heard he was really into that type of stuff"

Dad : "We did, but he just laughed & called us a bunch of nutters"

Son : "But with all the money we had, couldn't we have just blown Klopp's sides out of the water ?"

Dad : "Err.....Haven't you got any homework to do lad ?"

Son : "Not homework as such, more of a punishment for talking in class with my mates about that grea...sorry, lucky, Liverpool team. Our teacher has given me a hundred lines to write out"

Dad : "What do you have to write ?"

Son : "I must never, ever, ever, discuss the scouse filth in class again"

Dad : "I like your teacher. Sounds like a clever, well-balanced bloke"
Brilliant! :)