Looking back at the summer of 09. Did it signal the end of us being a top club?

[Oo0AahCantona]

We also entered a very rare era pre neymar transfer inflation where world class players were going for 30m and we refused to sign any. I distinctly remember city Chelsea and others just plucking up talent uncontested.

 

[Alex99]

We also entered a very rare era pre neymar transfer inflation where world class players were going for 30m and we refused to sign any. I distinctly remember city Chelsea and others just plucking up talent uncontested.

I think you'd be surprised how few world class players were signing for the other top PL clubs from 2009 to Fergie retiring, if you looked back.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

I think you'd be surprised how few world class players were signing for the other top PL clubs from 2009 to Fergie retiring, if you looked back.

Yeah was a few years after but I do remember that time when city signed Aguero/Yaya/Silva etc for what seemed liked peanuts a few years later. That seemed like a pivotal moment we missed out on.

 

[Alex99]

Yeah was a few years after but I do remember that time when city signed Aguero/Yaya/Silva etc for what seemed liked peanuts a few years later. That seemed like a pivotal moment we missed out on.

City were going daft on fees and under the table payments though. They were basically the only club in the PL consistently going big at that time.

 

[buckooo1978]

Round about this period is where we starting hearing the phrase 'there's no value in the market'

certainly the start of a decline and Rooney identified it

 

[Bondi77]

Did you actually watch football back then or are you just summarizing history stats from AI? Let me help you:
- We won 10-11 and 12-13 PL
- We almost won 11-12, which we lost due to Aguero's last min goal AND almost won 09-10 which went literally till the last day
- We scored more goals in 3 of those 4 years than anytime when Ronaldo was with us.
- We were clearly the best team in the league during that period. The only team I'd say equal to/stronger than us from 2005-2013 was Mourinho's Chelsea team in the 2005-06 season which was like a machine.

The difference was NOT Ronaldo. It was SAF.

Pretty much Spot on!

 

[spiriticon]

Nah we clearly weren't prepared for Fergie's sudden decision to retire in 2013.

I would never begrudge the great man the privilege of calling the end on his own terms, but the preparation for 'Life after Fergie' was abysmal.

 

[Welbeckham]

We signed none of the obvious talents of the early-20’s group at the time. Between 2009 and 2012 Benzema, Aguero, Silva, Hazard, Alexis and Özil were all very highly regarded, yet we only went for experienced crocks and cheap punts.

 

[Moriarty]

Nah we clearly weren't prepared for Fergie's sudden decision to retire in 2013.

I would never begrudge the great man the privilege of calling the end on his own terms, but the preparation for 'Life after Fergie' was abysmal.

I agree, but if you remember, David Gill addressed this some years before when he outlined the qualifications Fergie's replacement would need. We got Moyes.

 

[michelleOntaRio-Rio]

Did you actually watch football back then or are you just summarizing history stats from AI? Let me help you:
- We won 10-11 and 12-13 PL
- We almost won 11-12, which we lost due to Aguero's last min goal AND almost won 09-10 which went literally till the last day
- We scored more goals in 3 of those 4 years than anytime when Ronaldo was with us.
- We were clearly the best team in the league during that period. The only team I'd say equal to/stronger than us from 2005-2013 was Mourinho's Chelsea team in the 2005-06 season which was like a machine.

The difference was NOT Ronaldo. It was SAF.

I love those ‘almost trophy’ parades.

SAF is the GOAT and Ronaldo is also a GOAT player. Claiming that losing one of the greatest players that ever lived didn’t impact, when he wasn’t replaced equally and trophy count backs it up is seriously sheesh.

 

[Raul Madrid]

When Ronaldo left for madrid, I thought he was crazy. United were a more stable club and had ferguson. They were a trophy winning machine. Barcelona were harder than any pl team to overcome too. It worked out for him in the end but it was very risky imo.

 

[KStandBarmyArmy1993]

I agree, but if you remember, David Gill addressed this some years before when he outlined the qualifications Fergie's replacement would need. We got Moyes.

Aside from the Glazers themselves, Gill was the biggest contributing factor to our post Fergie decline. He allowed standards to drop off the pitch and ran a mile when it was becoming clear Fergie was going to retire soo.

We signed none of the obvious talents of the early-20’s group at the time. Between 2009 and 2012 Benzema, Aguero, Silva, Hazard, Alexis and Özil were all very highly regarded, yet we only went for experienced crocks and cheap punts.

A large % of the team that won league titles were "cheap punts". Carrick as an example wasn't "fit to lace Roy Keane's boots" circa 2006.

Aside from some of the signings we made between 2001 and 2004, we very rarely went for the profile of players your mentioning here. You could argue that our biggest issue is we stopped being able to identify the solid cheap punts (the likes of Park, Evra, Vidic etc.) and instead had some weird scattergun approach.

 

[Nyland]

The whole last 5 years of Ferguson's reign really does highlight how spoilt and ungrateful some of us became. Our record in the league during that period was phenomenal. In terms of progress in Europe insofar as consistency it was the best we've ever seen in our history. Yet there's such a desperation to dismiss that and bleat on about the fact we used the Ronaldo money to sign Obertan.

I can't help but feel it sums up where we were as a fan base at the time. Ignore the success, ignore the trophies and whine like a b*tch because the easter egg we saw waiting for us on the table when we woke up easter morning, didn't cost as much as the easter egg that the girl across the street was bought by her parents so 'waaah'

If you look at what we achieved after 2009 I would suggest it's incredibly ungrateful, brattish and lacking all perspective to try and paint it as some kind of decline or chore. We wiped the piss out of everyone home and away, domestically and in Europe with the exception of probably the best club side in the history of world football. Yet here we are talking about decline because we were outspent in the market.

The most successful period we've ever had in our history retconned as 'decline' because of how we spent the Ronaldo money. You can pretty much wipe off 4 of the last 13 titles Ferguson won because half the fanbase sulked due to him saying "no value in the market" that one time. Sometimes the last 15 years in the wilderness doesn't feel entirely undeserved.

 

[ron86]

Aside from the Glazers themselves, Gill was the biggest contributing factor to our post Fergie decline. He allowed standards to drop off the pitch and ran a mile when it was becoming clear Fergie was going to retire soo.


A large % of the team that won league titles were "cheap punts". Carrick as an example wasn't "fit to lace Roy Keane's boots" circa 2006.

Aside from some of the signings we made between 2001 and 2004, we very rarely went for the profile of players your mentioning here. You could argue that our biggest issue is we stopped being able to identify the solid cheap punts (the likes of Park, Evra, Vidic etc.) and instead had some weird scattergun approach.

The same Roy Keane who was a British transfer record. Fergie loved record signings

 

[Denis' cuff]

End of top,team, not a top club

 

[KStandBarmyArmy1993]

The same Roy Keane who was a British transfer record. Fergie loved record signings

He did. But he also loved signing relative unknowns and turning them into key players.

My original point was that Fergie very rarely signed the players people said we should have signed in 2009. It would have been completely out of character out of him. Even the signing of Ronaldo himself in 2004 came at a time when many wanted a big name to replace Beckham and instead of Ronaldinho.

Our issue at that stage was that our scouting had clearly started to go to shit and the next lot of Evra/Vidic/Park (and again Ronaldo) type signings never developed like others did.

 

[Hammondo]

City were going daft on fees and under the table payments though. They were basically the only club in the PL consistently going big at that time.

That's only to the player though, not to another club.

 

[ron86]

He did. But he also loved signing relative unknowns and turning them into key players.

My original point was that Fergie very rarely signed the players people said we should have signed in 2009. It would have been completely out of character out of him. Even the signing of Ronaldo himself in 2004 came at a time when many wanted a big name to replace Beckham and instead of Ronaldinho.

Our issue at that stage was that our scouting had clearly started to go to shit and the next lot of Evra/Vidic/Park (and again Ronaldo) type signings never developed like others did.

Was signing Rio for a world record fee out of character then? Or Rooney for world record fee for a teenager. Fergie went after the best players, even in the 90s wanted the likes of Rivaldo, Figo and batisituta. We repeatedly broke British transfer records, amd would've even note had we not had the class of 92.
You mention Ronaldinho like we chose cr7 over him, we didn't fergie was gutted to miss out on him and thought the deal was done till Barac came in. Due to the Glazers We went from trying for the best to shopping at poundland

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Was signing Rio for a world record fee out of character then? Or Rooney for world record fee for a teenager. Fergie went after the best players, even in the 90s wanted the likes of Rivaldo, Figo and batisituta. We repeatedly broke British transfer records, amd would've even note had we not had the class of 92.
You mention Ronaldinho like we chose cr7 over him, we didn't fergie was gutted to miss out on him and thought the deal was done till Barac came in. Due to the Glazers We went from trying for the best to shopping at poundland

Yes, he preferred to sign them at a young(ish) age and develop them himself, but he was never afraid to invest heavily. Even Evra and Park were shrewd signings (which we seem to be struggling to find these days) rather than gambles on unknowns.

 

[Marwood]

Nah we clearly weren't prepared for Fergie's sudden decision to retire in 2013.

I would never begrudge the great man the privilege of calling the end on his own terms, but the preparation for 'Life after Fergie' was abysmal.

I think Fergie did all the prep.

It shouldn't have been too difficult when he left to keep us ticking along at least. Keep us in and around the big trophies. Everything was in place.

They just made a huge mess of it.

Fergie retired and your one summer signing is Fellaini?! You don't need a DoF or any fancy structure to do better than that.

'09 was a sign of things to come I suppose but enough years and money have been available to start over several times.

 

[Pughnichi]

We sold Ronaldo for €94 million and replaced him with Antonio Valencia for €18 million. Our other reinforcements included a finished Michael Owen on a free transfer and Gabriel Obertan for €4million and Mame Diouf for €5 million meaning none of the Ronaldo money was invested back into a squad that badly needed refreshing to compete with the likes of Peps Barcelona.

Meanwhile Madrid not only took our balon dor winner they also brought in Brazilian superstar Kaka for €67million, hot prospect Benzema for €35million and one of the Premier leagues elite midfielders Xabi Alonso taking their total spend to over €200 million.

Feels quite insane looking back that Fergie was ok with this. He watched us go from breaking records for the likes of Rio and Rooney to penny pinching and signing players from Wigan (no offense to Valencia) while the European giants closed this gap significantly on us and we no longer had one of the strongest teams in Europe.

What was the mood like on here at the time? We were still the best team in England and CL finalists but did you all see the writing on the wall for our demise during this time?

The Obertan and Diouf transfers really irritated me. The narrative for 3 seasons was no value in the market

And during that period we still wasted in region of 42M on Diouf, Obertan, Bebe, Buttner, Chicarito, Powell, Angelo Henrique

And it was a nonsense narrative when other teams around that time were buying quality players

Zabaleta 8.7
Kompany 8.5
Courtois 8.9
De Bruyne 8.0
Azpilicueta 8.8
Modric 22
Walker 5.9
Bale 14
Van der vaart 10

Yes hindsight is wonderful. But we took the money and ran. We could also have just used Ronaldo money on Silva and Aguero for bigger sums and I’d almost guarantee that history would read quite differently

Liken it to our peak period when Liverpool were buying La Tallec and Pongolle

Ultimately, I think we can all agree. Recruitment is king in football. Thankfully in more recent windows we have improved

 

[Berbasbullet]

The Obertan and Diouf transfers really irritated me. The narrative for 3 seasons was no value in the market

And during that period we still wasted in region of 42M on Diouf, Obertan, Bebe, Buttner, Chicarito, Powell, Angelo Henrique

And it was a nonsense narrative when other teams around that time were buying quality players

Zabaleta 8.7
Kompany 8.5
Courtois 8.9
De Bruyne 8.0
Azpilicueta 8.8
Modric 22
Walker 5.9
Bale 14
Van der vaart 10

Yes hindsight is wonderful. But we took the money and ran. We could also have just used Ronaldo money on Silva and Aguero for bigger sums and I’d almost guarantee that history would read quite differently

Liken it to our peak period when Liverpool were buying La Tallec and Pongolle

Ultimately, I think we can all agree. Recruitment is king in football. Thankfully in more recent windows we have improved

Little Pea doesn’t belong in that list (despite him being a weirdo nower days).

 

[Alex99]

Little Pea doesn’t belong in that list (despite him being a weirdo nower days).

It's also a bit odd to be pointing to a bunch of players who averaged £6 million a pop over the course of multiple seasons as a massive waste of money, considering what followed in the Woodward-era.

 

[KStandBarmyArmy1993]

Was signing Rio for a world record fee out of character then? Or Rooney for world record fee for a teenager. Fergie went after the best players, even in the 90s wanted the likes of Rivaldo, Figo and batisituta. We repeatedly broke British transfer records, amd would've even note had we not had the class of 92.
You mention Ronaldinho like we chose cr7 over him, we didn't fergie was gutted to miss out on him and thought the deal was done till Barac came in. Due to the Glazers We went from trying for the best to shopping at poundland

Again, not denying he didn't occasionally sign big games. But, he never ever went to Barca/Madrid/Bayern etc for their best players.

When he brought back Hughes from Barca in 88, that was (I think) the last time he signed a key player from the one of those top tier European sides until we signed Hargreaves in 2007.

You mention us going after the likes of Rivaldo, Figo and Batisituta but in the case of two of those players, an attempt was made before they were the global icons they want onto become.

Again, this is no defence of "Glazernomics" but I think people have this weird fake memory of the past (pre 2005) where we were routinely spending massive amounts of money on superstars . It just wasn't a thing and Fergie favoured the "lesser-known" players.

Even when he did spend big, it was (Veron aside) from other Premier League sides.

It's also a bit odd to be pointing to a bunch of players who averaged £6 million a pop over the course of multiple seasons as a massive waste of money, considering what followed in the Woodward-era.

This is a great point. Whatever you think of the 2009-2010 penny pinching*, it was a million times better than what came between 2014 and 2018.

*again even if this was forced up rather than being a strategic choice.

 

[KStandBarmyArmy1993]

Oh and Valencia was never a replacement for Ronaldo. Fergie had wanted to sign him the summer before.

He was a good player who contributed a lot and would have played a reasonable role in any great United side.

 

[Pughnichi]

Little Pea doesn’t belong in that list (despite him being a weirdo nower days).

Included more as a reflection that whilst others were buying Ibrahimovic, Villa, Cavani and Aguero, we were scouring the Mexican league for a name barely anyone knew. A gamble that worked OK but he was far from prolific

 

[Pughnichi]

It's also a bit odd to be pointing to a bunch of players who averaged £6 million a pop over the course of multiple seasons as a massive waste of money, considering what followed in the Woodward-era.

Disagree. Just wait until the right player becomes available and the money wasted can go towards a nailed on option

Worked out well for Liverpool who in early klopp years didn’t want to spaff money on alternatives but wait for primary targets to become available

That 40m could have been used for example on Aguero…but nah, we got a total of 67 appearances from Powell, Enrique, Bebe, Buttner, Obertan and Diouf. All purchased in a terrible 3 year period. It mad mind bogging

 

[Alex99]

Included more as a reflection that whilst others were buying Ibrahimovic, Villa, Cavani and Aguero, we were scouring the Mexican league for a name barely anyone knew. A gamble that worked OK but he was far from prolific

We literally bought Robin van Persie.

 

[Alex99]

Disagree. Just wait until the right player becomes available and the money wasted can go towards a nailed on option

Worked out well for Liverpool who in early klopp years didn’t want to spaff money on alternatives but wait for primary targets to become available

That 40m could have been used for example on Aguero…but nah, we got a total of 67 appearances from Powell, Enrique, Bebe, Buttner, Obertan and Diouf. All purchased in a terrible 3 year period. It mad mind bogging

They were cheap punts on potential, something we've always done.

That's also not remotely how transfer budgets work.

We didn't miss out on a big signing in 2012 because we spent a few million on Obertan in 2009.

 

[RedKnight88]

Disagree. Just wait until the right player becomes available and the money wasted can go towards a nailed on option

Worked out well for Liverpool who in early klopp years didn’t want to spaff money on alternatives but wait for primary targets to become available

That 40m could have been used for example on Aguero…but nah, we got a total of 67 appearances from Powell, Enrique, Bebe, Buttner, Obertan and Diouf. All purchased in a terrible 3 year period. It mad mind bogging

I agree with you. But those punts weren't as bad as other signings though, pretty sure most knew they were risky punts.

Morgan Schniederlin, Daley Blind, Ander Herrera, Marcos Rojo, Eric Bailly, Victor Lindelof, Fred , Mkhitaryan, Sancho these were all bought to actually play first team football from the start and compete with City. Just madness.
Daley Blind and Herrera did well in fairness but who did we have to fight off to sign them?

Luke Shaw, Anthony Martial, Bruno Fernandes and I think I am forgetting one or two more are the only real good signings we did and some would argue the first two were flops.

 

[Pughnichi]

I agree with you. But those punts weren't as bad as other signings though, pretty sure most knew they were risky punts.

Morgan Schniederlin, Daley Blind, Ander Herrera, Marcos Rojo, Eric Bailly, Victor Lindelof, Fred , Mkhitaryan, Sancho these were all bought to actually play first team football from the start and compete with City. Just madness.
Daley Blind and Herrera did well in fairness but who did we have to fight off to sign them?

Luke Shaw, Anthony Martial, Bruno Fernandes and I think I am forgetting one or two more are the only real good signings we did and some would argue the first two were flops.

Agree entirely. Some of the names listed were just so so bad to bring in and compete at the top level.

I was just focusing on the Ronaldo period and shortly thereafter with money to spend and the ‘no vale in market’ narrative

But yes, it was about to get a whole lot worse with Rojo, Depay, Schneiderlin and beyond

 

[Pughnichi]

They were cheap punts on potential, something we've always done.

That's also not remotely how transfer budgets work.

We didn't miss out on a big signing in 2012 because we spent a few million on Obertan in 2009.

You do know that if you had £10 in your pocket in 2009 but didn’t spend it…it would still be there in 2012.

Of course it’s a bit more intricate. But you don’t just bloomin lose it.

Liverpool after Klopp didn’t spend a penny…and could then afford almost 500m last summer.

 

[ron86]

Again, not denying he didn't occasionally sign big games. But, he never ever went to Barca/Madrid/Bayern etc for their best players.

When he brought back Hughes from Barca in 88, that was (I think) the last time he signed a key player from the one of those top tier European sides until we signed Hargreaves in 2007.

You mention us going after the likes of Rivaldo, Figo and Batisituta but in the case of two of those players, an attempt was made before they were the global icons they want onto become.

Again, this is no defence of "Glazernomics" but I think people have this weird fake memory of the past (pre 2005) where we were routinely spending massive amounts of money on superstars . It just wasn't a thing and Fergie favoured the "lesser-known" players.

Even when he did spend big, it was (Veron aside) from other Premier League sides.


This is a great point. Whatever you think of the 2009-2010 penny pinching*, it was a million times better than what came between 2014 and 2018.

*again even if this was forced up rather than being a strategic choice.

No one was saying we should be signing key players from barca, Madrid and bayern in 09 though. They are saying we should've been signing quality players with top potential to kick on. We stopped doing that and let rivals sign the likes of David silva, aguero, hazard, sanchez.

 

[Alex99]

You do know that if you had £10 in your pocket in 2009 but didn’t spend it…it would still be there in 2012.

Of course it’s a bit more intricate. But you don’t just bloomin lose it.

Liverpool after Klopp didn’t spend a penny…and could then afford almost 500m last summer.

That was because the PSR ticked over a year, not because they'd saved the money in a savings account.

None of those signings affected our ability to afford a marquee signing in any window.

 

[one340]

Included more as a reflection that whilst others were buying Ibrahimovic, Villa, Cavani and Aguero, we were scouring the Mexican league for a name barely anyone knew. A gamble that worked OK but he was far from prolific

Ok is kind of an understatement. He was absolutely vital in the two final league campaigns we had and was the leading scorer of the club the last time we made a Champions league final. You have a fair point about the scouting though but he still shouldn't be in that original list.

 

[Pughnichi]

Ok is kind of an understatement. He was absolutely vital in the two final league campaigns we had and was the leading scorer of the club the last time we made a Champions league final. You have a fair point about the scouting though but he still shouldn't be in that original list.

37 goals in 103 EPL appearances is OK

 

[michelleOntaRio-Rio]

37 goals in 103 EPL appearances is OK

How many minutes


Edit*

So like 4839 minutes is about 54 full game time matches.

The little pea was an awesome player to have impact on games.