Looted art and reparations

rimaldo

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we’ll swap the rosetta stone for one of the pyramids.
 

SilentWitness

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There must be a massive black market for this type of stuff.

On your second point - legitimate goods must be bought with the consent of the Egyptian authorities / ministry of history and what not. I have no idea though...might be worth asking our resident archaeologist @SilentWitness.
Funnily enough Egypt stuff is something that isn’t my forte or interest, one of my least favourites but I’ve read up a little bit of it as it’s the most famous example when considering this stuff.

From what I’ve read and seen it was legal to sell stuff within Egypt with a licence for much of the 1900s until the act was passed in 1983 to ban everything. Obviously stuff was also looted and traded in a black market but there were technically “legal” methods of obtaining stuff too. The problem since with Egypt is that they consider those artefacts that were “legally” obtained as being items that they should take back too, which is understandable but becomes tricky to navigate.
 

Heardy

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Aboriginal spears taken by Captain James Cook to be returned to Australia

Aboriginal spears taken by British explorer James Cook and his landing party when they first arrived in Australia in 1770 will be returned to the local Sydney clan.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-64820618
I totally get the point regarding returning looted art, relics, artefacts of significance.

Seeing the headline, I was surprised at the clamour to return some spears.

The manner in which they were taken is the more important issue, but surely any national gallery in the world should close half of its exhibits and return items (irrespective of value) to the original owners if they were the argument.
 

cyberman

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I totally get the point regarding returning looted art, relics, artefacts of significance.

Seeing the headline, I was surprised at the clamour to return some spears.

The manner in which they were taken is the more important issue, but surely any national gallery in the world should close half of its exhibits and return items (irrespective of value) to the original owners if they were the argument.
Yes?
Britain has Irish artefacts in their possession that they won’t even send back!
 

Withnail

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I totally get the point regarding returning looted art, relics, artefacts of significance.

Seeing the headline, I was surprised at the clamour to return some spears.

The manner in which they were taken is the more important issue, but surely any national gallery in the world should close half of its exhibits and return items (irrespective of value) to the original owners if they were the argument.
I was about to say we wouldn't know and certainly can't judge how culturally significant the spears would be to the aboriginal people but it's right there in the article.

Ray Ingrey, chairman of the community's Gujaga Foundation, said the Gweagal people had a deep, spiritual connection with the wooden, multiple-tipped spears.

"It's part of a dreaming story that tells us how our people came to be. So not only that they're over 253 years old, and gives us a window into our historic past, but also toward that spiritual connection, which makes it so more important," he told the BBC.

"It's been a long time for us. Our elders, over 20 years ago, started a campaign to return cultural objects.

"A lot of elders, particularly our senior women, are no longer with us. It's a day of happiness, but also sadness because they're not here to celebrate with us.
 

Heardy

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I was about to say we wouldn't know and certainly can't judge how culturally significant the spears would be to the aboriginal people but it's right there in the article.
Yeah I’m probably dead ignorant about it to be honest. I’d have just assumed the spears were ten a penny so to speak and some of their “significance” is because they might be the most complete/restored/intact because they’ve been stored in a museum for over 100 years as opposed to handed down, lost, damaged with the passage of time.

As I said though - I think the manner in which they were taken is more the issue, as opposed to their inherent value.
 

The Corinthian

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surely any national gallery in the world should close half of its exhibits and return items (irrespective of value) to the original owners if they were the argument.
Yes. If these items have been looted out of the country of their origin in the past due to colonialism or what have you - then it's only right that they are returned. If that means a few museums have to close so be it. The cultural significance, and the importance to the country of origin are greater.
 

Heardy

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Yes. If these items have been looted out of the country of their origin in the past due to colonialism or what have you - then it's only right that they are returned. If that means a few museums have to close so be it. The cultural significance, and the importance to the country of origin are greater.
That’s fair - I would actually much rather see items returned “legally” and then items toured around different countries for education / cultural appreciation etc, with their base of ownership and exhibit returning to the country of origin, and then released to other countries temporarily. I imagine logistics / insurance etc make that extremely difficult though.
 

The Corinthian

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That’s fair - I would actually much rather see items returned “legally” and then items toured around different countries for education / cultural appreciation etc, with their base of ownership and exhibit returning to the country of origin, and then released to other countries temporarily. I imagine logistics / insurance etc make that extremely difficult though.
Yea, I'd have no issue with that. Generally it's this idea that the Western colonial powers get to call the shots that doesn't sit right with me. Working in tandem with the country of origin is undoubtedly better.
 

SilentWitness

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I totally get the point regarding returning looted art, relics, artefacts of significance.

Seeing the headline, I was surprised at the clamour to return some spears.

The manner in which they were taken is the more important issue,
but surely any national gallery in the world should close half of its exhibits and return items (irrespective of value) to the original owners if they were the argument.
I think though that isn't up to you to decide or understand. Some items may seem to be just 'some spear' to you but hold significant cultural value to certain groups and societies and it becomes a more complex relationship involving many factors such as how it was taken, why, when, the cultural value of the item etc.
 

2cents

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Yeah but, how many of our artifacts do the Irish have? My neighbour reckons £200 worth of scrap metal disappeared from his property last week.
Reparations.
 

SilentWitness

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Rearing its head again regarding the Elgin Marbles.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/hist...-elgin-marbles-ended-up-in-england-180979311/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67551732

No 10 is embroiled in a deepening row with Athens after cancelling a meeting between Rishi Sunak and the Greek PM.

Downing Street believed it had assurances that Kyriakos Mitsotakis would not speak publicly about the Parthenon Sculptures - also known as the Elgin Marbles - on his UK visit.

A Greek source has denied this.
 

Conor

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Rearing its head again regarding the Elgin Marbles.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/hist...-elgin-marbles-ended-up-in-england-180979311/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67551732

No 10 is embroiled in a deepening row with Athens after cancelling a meeting between Rishi Sunak and the Greek PM.

Downing Street believed it had assurances that Kyriakos Mitsotakis would not speak publicly about the Parthenon Sculptures - also known as the Elgin Marbles - on his UK visit.

A Greek source has denied this.
Having no clue about this any time someone posted about it, I really thought it was some set of amazing, ancient marbles. Very disappointed.
 

Maticmaker

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Why is it up to The British to decide though? What gives them that right?
To the 'victor the spoils' and 'possession being nine tenths of the law'...etc.

When London gets 'sacked' halfway through the 21st century all the stuff in the British museum will get moved again, along with the Arkwright 'spinning jenny' and Newcomen's Steam/Beam engine.