Luis Nani | 2012/13 Performances

Status
Not open for further replies.

Cina

full member
Joined
Aug 10, 2007
Messages
50,869
"Definition of form: b. Fitness, as of an athlete or animal, with regard to health or training."

"Definition of fitness: The condition of being physically fit and healthy."

Is he physically fit and healthy? Then he has lost skill. If you consider his reasons of being poor that he lacks the physical form he once had then you are fully right saying "he lost form.".

However if he can't perform because he hasn't had confidence in 12 months then that is a decline in skill which he needs and can regain.

Interesting is looking at "form table" of different clubs, you will see that it only includes 5-10 matches and never the entire season. The season result is showed in a league table not a "form table".

Also another related definition of form; c. The past performance of a racehorse.
Why are you trying to give me English lessons?

Like I said, I won't argue this in here, stop rambling, it's also a weird way of debating what you are trying to debate.
 

Pogue Mahone

Poster of the year 2008
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
99,999
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
"Definition of form: b. Fitness, as of an athlete or animal, with regard to health or training."

"Definition of fitness: The condition of being physically fit and healthy."

Is he physically fit and healthy? Then he has lost skill. If you consider his reasons of being poor that he lacks the physical form he once had then you are fully right saying "he lost form.".

However if he can't perform because he hasn't had confidence in 12 months then that is a decline in skill which he needs and can regain.

Interesting is looking at "form table" of different clubs, you will see that it only includes 5-10 matches and never the entire season. The season result is showed in a league table not a "form table".

Also another related definition of form; c. The past performance of a racehorse.
I take it English isn't your first language?

Bearing this in mind, it's probably best not to get involved in an argument about the exact meaning of an English word and yes, a dip in form can last a whole season. Just look at Jonny Evans.

Everyone here know what "form" means in the context of football. You're entitled to have your own peculiar definition but don't expect anyone else to share it.
 

Carl

has permanently erect nipples
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
41,014
Why are you trying to give me English lessons?

Like I said, I won't argue this in here, stop rambling, it's also a weird way of debating what you are trying to debate.
You've changed, Cina.
 

Pogue Mahone

Poster of the year 2008
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
99,999
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
Put it this way - I think if United finished 10th next season we wouldn't be saying our team has just had a temporary loss of form, we'd have much bigger problems.
That would be because it would be unheard of for everyone in an entire squad to lose form at the same time, for a whole season. For individual players, though, it's not unusual at all. In fact it's quite common for any player to have good and bad seasons over the course of their career.
 

Annahnomoss

Full Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2012
Messages
10,101
I take it English isn't your first language?

Bearing this in mind, it's probably best not to get involved in an argument about the exact meaning of an English word. Everyone here know what "form" means in the context of football. You're entitled to have your own peculiar definition but don't expect anyone else to share it.
You are free to define any word any way you'd like but don't expect anybody else to agree and get you. You can define "Yes" as "Maybe" but it is wrong nevertheless.

I guess you do so-so in school with your own definitions of things. ;)
 

Cina

full member
Joined
Aug 10, 2007
Messages
50,869
You are free to define any word any way you'd like but don't expect anybody else to agree and get you. You can define "Yes" as "Maybe" but it is wrong nevertheless.

I guess you do so-so in school with your own definitions of things. ;)
I agree with him, and I think most people would agree with him, and only a select few would agree with you. I don't know who you are but you're coming across as very condescending with your argument.
 

finneh

Full Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2010
Messages
6,545
That would be because it would be unheard of for everyone in an entire squad to lose form at the same time, for a whole season. For individual players, though, it's not unusual at all. In fact it's quite common for any player to have good and bad seasons over the course of their career.
Tell that to Liverpool in 2009. In all fairness it's possible their team is still just out of form to this day. Likewise I'm unsure how to categorise Torres. I'd say having good and poor overall seasons is relatively common. However Valencia's fall from grace is something I haven't witnessed since Torres, which is the reason it's so concerning, although agreed we're going off topic.
 

fishfingers15

Contributes to username and tagline changes
Joined
Jan 17, 2009
Messages
25,470
Location
YESHHHHH, We'll GOOO for it.
Valencia also came back from a very serious injury and it's quite possible that he hasn't regained his best form. On his return, he did look as though he had never quite left, but that could be a reason still. Berbatov looked as though he had lost his touch when he was trying too much during his time at United as well, and it did look like Nani would be sold before Berbatov, with many posters terming it the 'Make or Break season for Nani'.

So, he's been through this before and I hope Nani sorts out his issues and becomes our first choice winger.
 

Sassy Colin

Death or the gladioli!
Joined
Jan 29, 2010
Messages
51,970
Location
Aliens are in control of my tagline & location
We could keep Nani as a squad man behind Bale and Valencia. Young, however, would have to pack his bags.
We're not getting Bale so don't even dream about it. Even if we were prepared to spend that sort of dosh, I'd rather we spent it on Ronaldo.

I don't know how much you can read into it, but Fergie was insistent on clapping Nani's hand and patting him on his head as he was subbed off.
I noticed this too, I really don't think SAF wants Nani to leave, I think (and hope) he will stay.
 

amolbhatia50k

Sneaky bum time
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
72,665
Location
india
A point which seems to keep getting missed by so many people who can't seem to praise Nani without slagging off the other two wingers. If he isn't playing well enough to get ahead of two players that are allegedly so shite as Valencia and Young, what does that say about Nani?

Another point that keeps getting missed is the fact that Fergie doesn't just pick teams based on what happened the last time we played a match. He works with the players, day in, day out, in training. In a season where Nani is in and out of the team and playing poorly when he does get his chance, then chances are he's not performing in training either. When he has got opportunities, it's probably on the basis of looking better on the training pitch. Interesting that he seems to have taken his thumb out of his arse in the build up to our biggest game of the season. Shame he didn't put in more performances like he did against Madrid, during matches and during training. If he had, there's absolutely no doubt he'd have played a lot more games this season. Probably also have got the contract he wanted too.
Exactly. Fergie doesn't not play players because of some random dislike for them. He sees them day in day out in training. I always believe that it's okay to form an opinion that the manager does something wrong, even if it's fergie, but in this case, I see no reason to believe Nani is some sort of victim in this whole scenario. No matter how poorly Valencia has player, noone can say Nani has been really good or anything. He's shown flashes of quality like against Madrid but otherwise he too his form too has been indifferent, just a better indifferent if that makes sense, than that of Valencia's, which doesn't say much.

I used to defend Nani lots earlier because I thought he was genuinely on the way to fulfilling his potential but he's been off the mark for awhile now, and he has noone to blame but himself. The ability he has, he should be miles better than a Valencia at his worst. Instead he's better but still pretty disappointing.
 

100

binary bot
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Messages
9,161
Location
HELLO
Exactly. Fergie doesn't not play players because of some random dislike for them. He sees them day in day out in training. I always believe that it's okay to form an opinion that the manager does something wrong, even if it's fergie, but in this case, I see no reason to believe Nani is some sort of victim in this whole scenario. No matter how poorly Valencia has player, noone can say Nani has been really good or anythingHe's shown flashes of quality like against Madrid but otherwise he too his form too has been indifferent, just a better indifferent if that makes sense, than that of Valencia's, which doesn't say much.

I used to defend Nani lots earlier because I thought he was genuinely on the way to fulfilling his potential but he's been off the mark for awhile now, and he has noone to blame but himself. The ability he has, he should be miles better than a Valencia at his worst. Instead he's better but still pretty disappointing.
There's obviously a glaring difference in the chances both have been given this season. For me it's clear Fergie doesn't see much point in persisting with a player who isn't going to be here next season.
 

Rossa

Full Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
Messages
8,097
Location
Looking over my shoulder.
So here I am, wiping the sweat off my forehead after a hard days work (riiiight), hoping to read some interesting new arguments about Nani and his future at United, but instead I'm greeted with a discussion of whether or not Valencia has lost form or skill. Many a times have I been baffled by Redcafe, but that takes ridiculous to a new level altogether.

Valencia has not lost form and confidence as his skills are clearly demonstrated on his national team where he outpaces, outmuscles and assists in abundance.

So, with my conclusion on the matter, how are things with Nani? Should we keep him, sell him or possibly outsource United, just for the heck of it?

Imo, he's clearly our best winger. He has terrific pace (how the hell didn't he get a free kick from those two rugby tackles?), excellent technique and a very decent cross, even with his left foot. He hesistated too much on the ball last night, but he has been out for a long time. I really do hope that he will stay at United!
 

amolbhatia50k

Sneaky bum time
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
72,665
Location
india
There's obviously a glaring difference in the chances both have been given this season. For me it's clear Fergie doesn't see much point in persisting with a player who isn't going to be here next season.
He isn't a victim in that case either, is he?

It means he's either not to keep on staying at this club or hasn't convinced the management that he's worth what he thinks he's worth.
 

Care_de_Bobo

Full Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
2,040
Not sure how relevant this is but in games Valencia has started this season we've only lost 2 out of 27 games, when Nani has started we've lost 5 in only 15 games.

For the record I enjoy watching Nani as much as any player at the club when he's on form but I'd still rather have Valencia in my team regardless of his dip in form this season. In an ideal world we'd keep both but its a real shame for Nani that Valencia can only really operate on the right which is where Nani is at his best.

Had a good game yesterday so let's hope he carries it on for the rest of the season if given the chance.
 

Pogue Mahone

Poster of the year 2008
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
99,999
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
It's interesting that Fergie seemed to make a particular effort to thank Nani for his efforts when he subbed him off, as well as mentioning him in the pre-game presser. Didn't seem to be the actions of a manager who is already planning a future without him. Hopefully he's showing a bit of love so Nani will see sense and take whatever contract is on offer.
 

Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær

Lutefisk is it!
Joined
May 9, 2006
Messages
76,599
Location
Walkin in a Snowle Wonderland :(
Supports
Moanchester United
It's interesting that Fergie seemed to make a particular effort to thank Nani for his efforts when he subbed him off, as well as mentioning him in the pre-game presser. Didn't seem to be the actions of a manager who is already planning a future without him. Hopefully he's showing a bit of love so Nani will see sense and take whatever contract is on offer.
Yes, I was paying close attention when Nani came off to see what Sir Alex would do.
 

NotoriousISSY

$10mil and I fecked it up!
Joined
Mar 20, 2012
Messages
14,551
Location
up north
Not sure how relevant this is but in games Valencia has started this season we've only lost 2 out of 27 games, when Nani has started we've lost 5 in only 15 games.

For the record I enjoy watching Nani as much as any player at the club when he's on form but I'd still rather have Valencia in my team regardless of his dip in form this season. In an ideal world we'd keep both but its a real shame for Nani that Valencia can only really operate on the right which is where Nani is at his best.

Had a good game yesterday so let's hope he carries it on for the rest of the season if given the chance.
I think it's fair to say we've won/drawn 25 of the 27 Valencia has started despite him, not because of him.
 

Devil_forever

You're only young once, you can be immature f'ever
Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Messages
9,506
Location
Head of the naval division of lolibfascon
It's interesting that Fergie seemed to make a particular effort to thank Nani for his efforts when he subbed him off, as well as mentioning him in the pre-game presser. Didn't seem to be the actions of a manager who is already planning a future without him. Hopefully he's showing a bit of love so Nani will see sense and take whatever contract is on offer.
Or he's putting him on the shop window and wants to do all he can to strengthen united's hands in negotiations. If he truly wanted to show Nani faith, he'd have featured more this season especially during periods when Young and Valencia's form left a lot to be desired.
 

Orton

Ati-virus, keeps missing the n button
Joined
Feb 24, 2006
Messages
17,792
Location
bonnie wee Scotland
Not sure how relevant this is but in games Valencia has started this season we've only lost 2 out of 27 games, when Nani has started we've lost 5 in only 15 games.

For the record I enjoy watching Nani as much as any player at the club when he's on form but I'd still rather have Valencia in my team regardless of his dip in form this season. In an ideal world we'd keep both but its a real shame for Nani that Valencia can only really operate on the right which is where Nani is at his best.

Had a good game yesterday so let's hope he carries it on for the rest of the season if given the chance.
And of the 5 defeats, 3 were against madrid, chelsea and everton. 3 of the most difficult games we have played this season. Can't really use that as a stick to beat him with. The wingers have all been well below par this season.
 

Hectic

account not controlled by niall
Joined
Jun 8, 2006
Messages
72,382
A point which seems to keep getting missed by so many people who can't seem to praise Nani without slagging off the other two wingers. If he isn't playing well enough to get ahead of two players that are allegedly so shite as Valencia and Young, what does that say about Nani?
That he still hasn't signed a contract? Nani, despite playing considerably less games than either player has still looked better than both. Bar about 2-3 games (Chelsea being the worst), he's comfortably looked better. That's actually the whole point of this, he is playing better than both of them. Take yesterday as a perfect example. Who was the better winger? Nani. Yet, who was subbed off? Nani. It's too simple to say because he hasn't played as much, it must be down to form in games or training - One, you have no idea what he's performing like in training, two, we've seen Valencia play multiple games in total shit form and still get consistent starts. There is no question that the worst performances from our wingers have come from Young and Valencia, and both have had a lot more "terrible" games than Nani, yet both are getting games.

I think there is no question he is being dropped/hardly being played due to the contract situation. Do you honestly think that had he signed a contract say, before the season had started, he would have had the games he has had, considering the form Valencia and Young have shown over their games? Of course not.

Shame he didn't put in more performances like he did against Madrid, during matches and during training. If he had, there's absolutely no doubt he'd have played a lot more games this season. Probably also have got the contract he wanted too.
We've been here before. You can't play a player like Nani, on one game every few weeks, or a sub here and a sub there and expect consistency and a solid performance, it's just not going to happen. I've used the Rooney example before, Valencia is also another good one - Both players are played through their bad form because they need games and time on the pitch to build that form up, Nani is no exception. Even then, without runs of games and consistent starts, he still (like yesterday), produces better form than Valencia who has had the luxury of a big run of games. Factor in the injuries this season too, he's needed a run of games more than ever. The only run he really had resulted in him getting a start for Madrid. You can't say it's a shame he hasn't put in better performances in training because you, like everyone else, has zero idea how he perfoms in training. Stick to what you do know - there is a contract dispute and it's likely this is the reason he has barely featured, especially considering as a whole this has been the worst collective performances by our wingers outside of Nani in a season too. If there were no contract issues, he probably would have played more games this season than he has in a season before.

I might be wrong here but he's also achieved a higher end product as Valencia or Young with about half the number of the games, and a lot of those coming as subs.
 

CapeTownRed

Full Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Messages
1,183
Location
Amsterdam, The Netherlands
He isn't a victim in that case either, is he?

It means he's either not to keep on staying at this club or hasn't convinced the management that he's worth what he thinks he's worth.
If you've got a player consistently delivering 4/10 performances and another guy whose potential is fantastic and has delivered a few good performances with a few bad, why not give the guy who's delivering some of the time a chance over the one that's not delivering at all.

Personally I'd far prefer playing Nani through the good and the bad, because when he's good he takes us to another level. Valencia, while very good, and capable of tearing teams apart, doesn't have that last gear that will take us past a great Bayern or Barca team. Nani does.

You could argue it's a flair over consistency thing. Perhaps Fergie prefers Valencia's 'consistency' and prefers to set up with a more solid approach, even if that means blunting our attack somewhat. I know I'd far prefer seeing Nani being equal parts garbage and brilliant(and generally the ratio is better than that) than Valencia producing the uninspired dross he has this season.

The funny thing is that for a flair player, Nani's also consistently productive. I just can't get my head around it. Meh. It'll be sad if he leaves, and I'll most certain enjoy watching our games less. Hope it doesn't come to that.
 

finneh

Full Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2010
Messages
6,545
That he still hasn't signed a contract? Nani, despite playing considerably less games than either player has still looked better than both. Bar about 2-3 games (Chelsea being the worst), he's comfortably looked better. That's actually the whole point of this, he is playing better than both of them. Take yesterday as a perfect example. Who was the better winger? Nani. Yet, who was subbed off? Nani. It's too simple to say because he hasn't played as much, it must be down to form in games or training - One, you have no idea what he's performing like in training, two, we've seen Valencia play multiple games in total shit form and still get consistent starts. There is no question that the worst performances from our wingers have come from Young and Valencia, and both have had a lot more "terrible" games than Nani, yet both are getting games.

I think there is no question he is being dropped/hardly being played due to the contract situation. Do you honestly think that had he signed a contract say, before the season had started, he would have had the games he has had, considering the form Valencia and Young have shown over their games? Of course not.



We've been here before. You can't play a player like Nani, on one game every few weeks, or a sub here and a sub there and expect consistency and a solid performance, it's just not going to happen. I've used the Rooney example before, Valencia is also another good one - Both players are played through their bad form because they need games and time on the pitch to build that form up, Nani is no exception. Even then, without runs of games and consistent starts, he still (like yesterday), produces better form than Valencia who has had the luxury of a big run of games. Factor in the injuries this season too, he's needed a run of games more than ever. The only run he really had resulted in him getting a start for Madrid. You can't say it's a shame he hasn't put in better performances in training because you, like everyone else, has zero idea how he perfoms in training. Stick to what you do know - there is a contract dispute and it's likely this is the reason he has barely featured, especially considering as a whole this has been the worst collective performances by our wingers outside of Nani in a season too. If there were no contract issues, he probably would have played more games this season than he has in a season before.

I might be wrong here but he's also achieved a higher end product as Valencia or Young with about half the number of the games, and a lot of those coming as subs.
Agree with all of that. The only thing that we know for sure is that our most consistently decent winger this season is also the winger who has played the least. It can't be Footballing reasons that a better player in better form is not being selected over another player in the same position (or players).
 

Pogue Mahone

Poster of the year 2008
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
99,999
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
That he still hasn't signed a contract? What's your point here? Nani, despite playing considerably less games than either player has still looked better than both. Bar about 2-3 games (Chelsea being the worst), he's comfortably looked better. That's actually the whole point of this, he is playing better than both of them. Take yesterday as a perfect example. Who was the better winger? Nani. Who was subbed off? Nani. It's too simple to say because he hasn't played as much, it must be down to form in games or training - One, you have no idea what he's performing like in training, two, we've seen Valencia play multiple games in total shit form and still get consistent starts. There is no question that the worst performances from our wingers have come from Young and Valencia, and both have had a lot more "terrible" games than Nani, yet both are getting games.

I think there is no question he is being dropped/hardly being played due to the contract situation. Do you honestly think that had he signed a contract say, before the season had started, he would have had the games he has had, considering the form Valencia and Young have shown over their games? Of course not.



We've been here before. You can't play a player like Nani, on one game every few weeks, or a sub here and a sub there and expect consistency and a solid performance, it's just not going to happen. I've used the Rooney example before, Valencia is also another good one - Both players are played through their bad form because they need games and time on the pitch to build that form up, Nani is no exception. Even then, without runs of games and consistent starts, he still (like yesterday), produces better form than Valencia who has had the luxury of a big run of games. Factor in the injuries this season too, he's needed a run of games more than ever. The only run he really had resulted in him getting a start for Madrid. You can't say it's a shame he hasn't put in better performances in training because you, like everyone else, has zero idea how he perfoms in training. Stick to what you do know - there is a contract dispute and it's likely this is the reason he has barely featured, especially considering as a whole this has been the worst collective performances by our wingers outside of Nani in a season too. If there were no contract issues, he probably would have played more games this season than he has in a season before.
See I disagree with everything in bold there. Which kind of makes it pointless (not to mention repetitive!) getting into the rest of your post.

As for these contract issues being the only reason Fergie is so reluctant to play him, does that explain why Nani fell out of favour as soon as Valencia regained some fitness last season? I just think Fergie doesn't rate Nani's performances as highly as so many of his fans on here. I remember a caftard called Aaron saying - early last season - that he thought Nani was still inconsistent and flattered to deceiver, predicting that Fergie would drop him as soon as Valencia got going again. He got dog's abuse for his opinion but lo and behold...

It's not as though we don't have any previous evidence that Fergie is willing to give Nani a run of games if he thinks he's playing well enough to deserve them. He was almost a guaranteed starter for 18 months or more after he came of age against Arsenal in January 20120. Seems odd that people assume a manager as competitive as Fergie would deliberately weaken his team, so he can prove a point to one of his players about signing a new contract.
 

wonnie

Full Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2010
Messages
2,639
Location
Eating pies with Ando
See I disagree with everything in bold there. Which kind of makes it pointless (not to mention repetitive!) getting into the rest of your post.

As for these contract issues being the only reason Fergie is so reluctant to play him, does that explain why Nani fell out of favour as soon as Valencia regained some fitness last season? I just think Fergie doesn't rate Nani's performances as highly as so many of his fans on here.

I remember a caftard called Aaron saying - early last season - that he thought Nani was still inconsistent and flattered to deceiver, predicting that Fergie would drop him as soon as Valencia got going again. He got dog's abuse for his opinion but lo and behold...

It's not as though we don't have any previous evidence that Fergie is willing to give Nani a run of games if he thinks he's playing well enough to deserve them. He was almost a guaranteed starter for 18 months or more after he came of age against Arsenal in January 20120.
But Nani's contract wasn't a problem then. Hectic's point is that, from what we know, the contract issue is a major problem and it has affected his appearances in the team.

You disagree with Hectic's point about Nani having less terrible performances than Valencia (which I find incredible, tbh) so this debate is not going to go anywhere. But you are in the minority here.
 

Pogue Mahone

Poster of the year 2008
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
99,999
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
But Nani's contract wasn't a problem then. Hectic's point is that, from what we know, the contract issue is a major problem and it has affected his appearances in the team.

You disagree with Hectic's point about Nani having less terrible performances than Valencia (which I find incredible, tbh) so this debate is not going to go anywhere. But you are in the minority here.
Nor was it last season, as I pointed out in my post.

Unless people seriously think Fergie started freezing Nani out at the end of last season, as some kind of pre-emptive strike to get back at him for refusing to sign a contract that hadn't been put in front of him yet?

Only that would be mental...
 

Nighteyes

Another Muppet
Joined
Nov 14, 2012
Messages
25,467
I've always thought Fergie was a bit harsh in dealing with Nani. Before the game at the Bridge he was on a run of good form and was perhaps one of our best players and yet one bad game was enough to send him back to the bench.
 

gza the genius

Full Member
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
4,550
Location
supply and command
I could be wrong but I thought the contract situation started going on towards the end of last season, I certainly don't think it was something that just started last summer.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.