Maguire’s value

hmchan

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It's funny that the discussion has been diverted into Maguire vs Koulibaly vs Upamecano. There are so many center backs all over the world and with such a huge scouting network, I'm not sure why we can't find a decent one with a reasonable price. For example Leicester has upgraded Maguire with Soyuncu using just 20m, who is equally good on the ball, much quicker, much agiler, much more athletic, and much more suited to play a high line.

Besides I've heard enough about "ball playing defenders" and honestly I'm not a fan of it as we barely benefit from it. How often do Maguire and Lindelof successfully play a direct ball through the lines and create a chance? More often than not, we give the ball away unnecessarily in dangerous positions leading to opposition's counter attack. The idea of playing out from the back is to keep the ball and bring the ball forward safely, but with the lack of quality and creativity in midfield, we usually swing the ball forward eventually, making the whole philosophy meaningless. For example the goal against Wolves came from a hopeful long ball from Maguire, just like Smalling always did.

I also don't agree with those who say transfer fee doesn't matter. Of course it does matter because if we had allocated 20m on center back, we'd have had an extra 60m for other positions, meaning we could have invested in a right winger or brought in Bruno half a season earlier. Either way could have brought a larger impact to the team.
 

vanderpants

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I think he will go on to be one of our best CB, he has a long way to go to reach Rio and Vidics level but I've been impressed with him both on and off the pitch, he seems to have taken leadership on the chin at one of the biggest clubs in the world
 

gajender

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I think he will go on to be one of our best CB, he has a long way to go to reach Rio and Vidics level but I've been impressed with him both on and off the pitch, he seems to have taken leadership on the chin at one of the biggest clubs in the world
At the moment it's more of PR exercise rather than anything he has shown on the Pitch ,He has all to prove on the pitch .
 

Ollie Derbyshire

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It's funny that the discussion has been diverted into Maguire vs Koulibaly vs Upamecano. There are so many center backs all over the world and with such a huge scouting network, I'm not sure why we can't find a decent one with a reasonable price. For example Leicester has upgraded Maguire with Soyuncu using just 20m, who is equally good on the ball, much quicker, much agiler, much more athletic, and much more suited to play a high line.

Besides I've heard enough about "ball playing defenders" and honestly I'm not a fan of it as we barely benefit from it. How often do Maguire and Lindelof successfully play a direct ball through the lines and create a chance? More often than not, we give the ball away unnecessarily in dangerous positions leading to opposition's counter attack. The idea of playing out from the back is to keep the ball and bring the ball forward safely, but with the lack of quality and creativity in midfield, we usually swing the ball forward eventually, making the whole philosophy meaningless. For example the goal against Wolves came from a hopeful long ball from Maguire, just like Smalling always did.

I also don't agree with those who say transfer fee doesn't matter. Of course it does matter because if we had allocated 20m on center back, we'd have had an extra 60m for other positions, meaning we could have invested in a right winger or brought in Bruno half a season earlier. Either way could have brought a larger impact to the team.
I think we prioritised an English centre back to build the back line on, put a fully fit Bailey or more experienced Tuanzebe next to Maguire and that would be a very good combination. Maguire is not the best in the world but neither was Bruce and that didn’t go too badly did it. We saw more in him than just a player in my opinion.

The way I see it, good combinations are worth more than the tying to get the best up and coming player all the time, especially in defence. Plus there is no way to test how Soyuncu would have faired for us, what if he had made a couple of mistakes early doors, the media would have crucified him and us for not getting a more experienced player, then he might not have looked so good.
 

RedRoseTyke

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Just a thought for people rating Maguire lower than Bruce or Pallister

England (Full) Caps

Bruce - 0
Pallister - 22
Maguire - 26 (and counting)

The sum of Bruce and Pallister was greater than the individual components, but they were a pair, as were Rio and Vidic - the best CBs hunt in pairs.

Harry is a class act - world class, not yet and maybe never, but a perfect rock to build an EPL defence. With Ole's signing at RB and Matic back to form, our defence has looked a lot more solid in recent months and the record against top 6 teams is far from shabby.
 

RkkMan

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Maguire is nowhere near to Van Dijk.

Also Smalling is very underrated here. Some seem to forget that since Rio-Vidic grew old, he was consistently our best CB. Call me old fashioned but I'd rather have a decent CB whose good defensively then a Rojo or a Lindelof who can pass the ball but are pretty crap on everything else. TBF I'd rather have Lindelof then crocks like Bailly, Jones and by the looks of it Tuanzebe as well.

Sure I wouldn't spend 80m on Smalling. However bringing if we surround him with the right players then you'll get great service out of him. Which is exactly the same thing I would say about Maguire. Thus why I don't think we were silly spending 80m on him. An 80m player should drag the defence by himself like Stam and Rio did.

Honestly, Id love to see Maguire-Smalling partnership being given a shot. I'd say it would do well.
Never said ability wise he was close to VVD but when it comes to playing the ball from the back he`s up there with VVD even when he was at Leicester the numbers and eye test don`t lie. Smalling may have been our best CB at the time but it was more of a testament how we were devoid of quality rather than him being outstanding. There is a reason Southgate who like Ole values ball playing CBs hasn`t chosen him for England in years even when he was "on form". TBF we would have struggled to find better CBs than Maguire for good value of money that would have guaranteed an improvement. At best we would have found defenders like Manolas for half the price who are no better than what we already have, looking at the circumstances HM is the best we could have gotten.
 

POF

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He reminds me alot of Pallister.
He reminds me more of Bruce. Both lack pace and aren't amazing defensively. But both have an influence on the team that is greater than their footballing abilities. They have great leadership qualities.

Both will also captain United to their first Premier League title after an extended period without a league title.
 

Ekeke

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So was Bebe, and Bebe was much cheaper.

If you randomly quote me a player who has never featured in EPL, hence always a big question mark on whether he will end up like Lindelof and Bailey . Beside, at 1.85m, not the strongest CB in Bundesliga. OK this is not a beauty contest, but 55m for an unproven player, expecting him to hit the road better than Vidic & Fred, replacing a seasoned CB like Maguire, such that we can pocket 20m profit?
He's proven himself more than Maguire has based on this season. Joint best defensive record in the league with Bayern and 3rd place in the league.

Maguire has never done that. The premier league is a bit stronger of course, but this season 5th in the league with the 4th best defensive record in the league is his best. And the team we bought him from are 3rd best defensive record and 3rd in the league, so they've done better without him.
 

RkkMan

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He's proven himself more than Maguire has based on this season. Joint best defensive record in the league with Bayern and 3rd place in the league.

Maguire has never done that. The premier league is a bit stronger of course, but this season 5th in the league with the 4th best defensive record in the league is his best. And the team we bought him from are 3rd best defensive record and 3rd in the league, so they've done better without him.
Leipzig play with a very specific system and the PL is a different animal to the Bundesliga. He could very likely look like half the player he is. Being the main CB for If Manchester United is very different to being the main CB for a highly system based RB Leipzig. If we were to use this logic we should buy the whole Sheffield Utd defence because they have a better defensive record than Utd. Leicester are okay because they bought HM`s replacements a year in advance(Benkovic and Soyuncu) if they sold him on short notice without properly replacing him it would be another story.
 

Ekeke

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Leipzig play with a very specific system and the PL is a different animal to the Bundesliga. He could very likely look like half the player he is. Being the main CB for If Manchester United is very different to being the main CB for a highly system based RB Leipzig. If we were to use this logic we should buy the whole Sheffield Utd defence because they have a better defensive record than Utd. Leicester are okay because they bought HM`s replacements a year in advance(Benkovic and Soyuncu) if they sold him on short notice without properly replacing him it would be another story.
Leipzig play a 4-4-2 and Upamacano is their most active defender, more active than Maguire. We are more "system-based" because we have AWB

Are Sheffield United 3rd? Nope Leicester are and buying their defenders isnt a bad idea. Just not for £75 million each
 

RedRonaldo

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Just a thought for people rating Maguire lower than Bruce or Pallister

England (Full) Caps

Bruce - 0
Pallister - 22
Maguire - 26 (and counting)

The sum of Bruce and Pallister was greater than the individual components, but they were a pair, as were Rio and Vidic - the best CBs hunt in pairs.

Harry is a class act - world class, not yet and maybe never, but a perfect rock to build an EPL defence. With Ole's signing at RB and Matic back to form, our defence has looked a lot more solid in recent months and the record against top 6 teams is far from shabby.
Yeh England Caps, the answer for all, how about:

Jones - 27
Smalling - 31
Brown - 23

Smalling>Jones>Maguire>Brown>Pallister>Bruce

Simple isn't it?

Oh and also:

Lingard - 24
Maddison - 1
Grealish - 0

Lingard>Maddison>Grealish

Following that line of logic, England Caps, of course.
 

RedRoseTyke

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Yeh England Caps, the answer for all, how about:

Jones - 27
Smalling - 31
Brown - 23

Smalling>Jones>Maguire>Brown>Pallister>Bruce

Simple isn't it?

Oh and also:

Lingard - 24
Maddison - 1
Grealish - 0

Lingard>Maddison>Grealish

Following that line of logic, England Caps, of course.
With the very greatest of respect, you have completely missed the point of my posting. Bruce and Pallister performed very well as a pair, so did Rio and Vidic. Harry does not yet have a partner of similar stature (though there is time for Bailly to turn into one). So a critical success factor in Bruce and Pallister being so effective (and they were) was the complementary pairing. Harry has not yet benefited from being in a partnership like this (although I
think that Lindelof is a better player than often given credit for, the partnership is not on the same plane as B&P or R&V).

Comparisons of Lingard, Maddison, Grealish, Freddy Flintoff, Katrina Johnson-Thompson or Larry the cat are not relevant.
 

hmchan

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Never said ability wise he was close to VVD but when it comes to playing the ball from the back he`s up there with VVD even when he was at Leicester the numbers and eye test don`t lie. Smalling may have been our best CB at the time but it was more of a testament how we were devoid of quality rather than him being outstanding. There is a reason Southgate who like Ole values ball playing CBs hasn`t chosen him for England in years even when he was "on form". TBF we would have struggled to find better CBs than Maguire for good value of money that would have guaranteed an improvement. At best we would have found defenders like Manolas for half the price who are no better than what we already have, looking at the circumstances HM is the best we could have gotten.
And Southgate yet again openly regrets his criticisms on Smalling and says they're unfair. His decision to play out from the back and pick ball playing defenders also cost him the UEFA Nations League. Absolute nightmare and terrible performance from the back at the semi.
 

hmchan

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With the very greatest of respect, you have completely missed the point of my posting. Bruce and Pallister performed very well as a pair, so did Rio and Vidic. Harry does not yet have a partner of similar stature (though there is time for Bailly to turn into one). So a critical success factor in Bruce and Pallister being so effective (and they were) was the complementary pairing. Harry has not yet benefited from being in a partnership like this (although I
think that Lindelof is a better player than often given credit for, the partnership is not on the same plane as B&P or R&V).

Comparisons of Lingard, Maddison, Grealish, Freddy Flintoff, Katrina Johnson-Thompson or Larry the cat are not relevant.
Maybe the critical success factor for Maguire is that he needs a van Dijk next to him, who does all the hard work, takes all the responsibility, and carries the defence on his own.
 

RkkMan

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And Southgate yet again openly regrets his criticisms on Smalling and says they're unfair. His decision to play out from the back and pick ball playing defenders also cost him the UEFA Nations League. Absolute nightmare and terrible performance from the back at the semi.
Yet despite being remorseful he`s not picked him. Hardly think Chris Smalling would have been the saviour in the UEFA Nations League it`s not like he`s ever been a mainstay they would have likely lost anyway even with him in the team. He`s nothing special
 

RedRoseTyke

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Maybe the critical success factor for Maguire is that he needs a van Dijk next to him, who does all the hard work, takes all the responsibility, and carries the defence on his own.
Bruce and Pallister were a mutually supportive team, Harry needs to be in the same.

Your comment is silly, IMO.
 

Revan

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He's not an 80m player (and will not ever be), but he is worth 80m for us. We were in desperate need for a competent defender with leadership qualities.

So, I wouldn't sell him for 80m. I also wouldn't expect any club to offer 80m for him.
 

Dante

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Transfer fees aren't just a measure of a player's ability. They're also a measure of a player's likelihood to be a success.

Maguire had proved himself in the Premier League, hence the high asking price. £80m is a reflection of the fact he was 100% certain to make it. He was worth every penny.

The fee for VVD was similarly high when he moved from Southampton because he was 100% certain to make. But it was a lot lower when he moved from Celtic because he was only 30% certain to make it. Go figure.

Transfers are gambles and the prices includes risk fees. Judging them in hindsight is like crying over the fact you picked the wrong six numbers on your lottery ticket.
 

iammemphis

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People judging him after just one season, in a continually changing/rotated team with a new manager... give the guy a break. In my opinion he got better and better as the season went on and to say he wasn’t worth the money is a premature statement. In 2-3 years time if we lift a league title and a few other trophies it will be money well spent. He doesn’t look like a phil jones/ chris smalling type purchase who will wain the older he gets, if anything the opposite.
 

0le

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It's funny that the discussion has been diverted into Maguire vs Koulibaly vs Upamecano. There are so many center backs all over the world and with such a huge scouting network, I'm not sure why we can't find a decent one with a reasonable price. For example Leicester has upgraded Maguire with Soyuncu using just 20m, who is equally good on the ball, much quicker, much agiler, much more athletic, and much more suited to play a high line.

Besides I've heard enough about "ball playing defenders" and honestly I'm not a fan of it as we barely benefit from it. How often do Maguire and Lindelof successfully play a direct ball through the lines and create a chance? More often than not, we give the ball away unnecessarily in dangerous positions leading to opposition's counter attack. The idea of playing out from the back is to keep the ball and bring the ball forward safely, but with the lack of quality and creativity in midfield, we usually swing the ball forward eventually, making the whole philosophy meaningless. For example the goal against Wolves came from a hopeful long ball from Maguire, just like Smalling always did.

I also don't agree with those who say transfer fee doesn't matter. Of course it does matter because if we had allocated 20m on center back, we'd have had an extra 60m for other positions, meaning we could have invested in a right winger or brought in Bruno half a season earlier. Either way could have brought a larger impact to the team.
If United had been in for him, they would have had to pay more. At that moment in time, we needed a defender who could come in and do a job straight away. I think there is also always a risk with buying young players who have not played in the PL so it would not have made sense to buy that lad. We also needed a defender with leadership qualities.
 

cyril C

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He's proven himself more than Maguire has based on this season. Joint best defensive record in the league with Bayern and 3rd place in the league.

Maguire has never done that. The premier league is a bit stronger of course, but this season 5th in the league with the 4th best defensive record in the league is his best. And the team we bought him from are 3rd best defensive record and 3rd in the league, so they've done better without him.
I said Proven in EPL. Base on your argument, we should recruit all of our players from Celtic and Ajax. They are always No. 1.
 

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Well at least He's proven himself to be a good CB, even if not at the level of Rio & Vidic. And more importantly, He looks like He wants to be here.
You can do much worse with 80m these days. You can also get a fake player milking our their last contracts or one who simply doesn't care about the club.
 

Isotope

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Yet despite being remorseful he`s not picked him. Hardly think Chris Smalling would have been the saviour in the UEFA Nations League it`s not like he`s ever been a mainstay they would have likely lost anyway even with him in the team. He`s nothing special
It's relative. He looks a special CB if you compare him to Stone or Walker or any CB Southgate has had there other than Maguire.
 

Isotope

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Well at least He's proven himself to be a good CB, even if not at the level of Rio & Vidic. And more importantly, He looks like He wants to be here.
You can do much worse with 80m these days. You can also get a fake player milking our their last contracts or one who simply doesn't care about the club.
That's not a good argument to put if a buy is success or not. You can say that about any dudes we've bought post-SAF.
 

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That's not a good argument to put if a buy is success or not. You can say that about any dudes we've bought post-SAF.
Correct. But I can appreciate Maguire as He wants to be here and is actually a good player. After Di Maria, Schweiny, Pogba (to a certain extent), Phil Jones, etc I feel like people are too critical of Maguire. If We judge Maguire based on the standard Vidic, Rio, VVD, it is an unfair comparison from the start. Transfer fees are about supply and demand, They are no longer representing players' quality. 80m was probably too expensive but look at who were available at the time? We were desperate for a new CB as well, this is often overlooked. Comparing his performances at Leicester and his performances so far with United, I'd say He's doing alright. Seems to be enjoying the Captain role as well, which is a very good addition to the squad post Ashley Young.

Maguire's value cannot be determined based on 9 months as United player. But there's a good player in there. Whether He will ever become as good as Rio is a matter of development and should not be used as an indicator of failure/success. Fred was a laughing stock for one season and look at where He is now.
 

Isotope

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Correct. But I can appreciate Maguire as He wants to be here and is actually a good player. After Di Maria, Schweiny, Pogba (to a certain extent), Phil Jones, etc I feel like people are too critical of Maguire. If We judge Maguire based on the standard Vidic, Rio, VVD, it is an unfair comparison from the start. Transfer fees are about supply and demand, They are no longer representing players' quality. 80m was probably too expensive but look at who were available at the time? We were desperate for a new CB as well, this is often overlooked. Comparing his performances at Leicester and his performances so far with United, I'd say He's doing alright. Seems to be enjoying the Captain role as well, which is a very good addition to the squad post Ashley Young.

Maguire's value cannot be determined based on 9 months as United player. But there's a good player in there. Whether He will ever become as good as Rio is a matter of development and should not be used as an indicator of failure/success. Fred was a laughing stock for one season and look at where He is now.
That's true. Compare to SAF time, it is overprice. But post-SAF buy though, if he becomes a United backbone for 5+ years, that 80m isn't that expensive.
 

devilish

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Never said ability wise he was close to VVD but when it comes to playing the ball from the back he`s up there with VVD even when he was at Leicester the numbers and eye test don`t lie. Smalling may have been our best CB at the time but it was more of a testament how we were devoid of quality rather than him being outstanding. There is a reason Southgate who like Ole values ball playing CBs hasn`t chosen him for England in years even when he was "on form". TBF we would have struggled to find better CBs than Maguire for good value of money that would have guaranteed an improvement. At best we would have found defenders like Manolas for half the price who are no better than what we already have, looking at the circumstances HM is the best we could have gotten.
Would Smalling be a first teamer in a defence with Rio-Vidic in their prime? Of course not. Same can be said about each and every CB we've got including Maguire. Actually I think Smalling would be a better partner for an ageing Rio or Vidic then Maguire would be. Don't take me wrong I do rate Maguire but he's painfully slow and we all know that the legs are the first to go.

Anyway my argument still stands. Smalling faced opposition from a horde of new CBs (I can count 5) and he constantly proved to be the best CB. He then moved to Italy, whom we all know, is the ancestral home of top defenders and he did very well there as well. Sure he might not have had Ole's and Southgate's blessing two managers whom combined won what? 2 Norwegian league? However he got Sir Alex's, LVG's and Ranieri's, top managers who know what winning as managers mean.

I repeat, I am not Smalling's biggest fan. I think he's not WC material. However, I do believe he's better then all we've got bar Maguire.
 

Relfy

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Our defense has improved as a unit and he has continued to improve all season, which has correlated with us statistically having one of the better defenses in Europe this season. He is hugely valuable to our team and has been an improvement, so they money paid goes out the window to a certain extent.

We must also remember when spouting prices that the game doesn't have the wealth of defenders it had even 10 years ago, plus football has had astronomical money pumped into it over the past 2 decades allowing for prices to inflate to the levels they have. We will of course see these numbers tumble down when the market reopens as the economical effects will hit everyone in every sector.
 

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Our defense has improved as a unit and he has continued to improve all season, which has correlated with us statistically having one of the better defenses in Europe this season. He is hugely valuable to our team and has been an improvement, so they money paid goes out the window to a certain extent.

We must also remember when spouting prices that the game doesn't have the wealth of defenders it had even 10 years ago, plus football has had astronomical money pumped into it over the past 2 decades allowing for prices to inflate to the levels they have. We will of course see these numbers tumble down when the market reopens as the economical effects will hit everyone in every sector.
I guess you forgot about AWB probably the best defensive rightback in the world.

If it had all happened without him then fair enough, but it didnt.

Who else had this to work with?

 

romufc

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Transfer fees aren't just a measure of a player's ability. They're also a measure of a player's likelihood to be a success.

Maguire had proved himself in the Premier League, hence the high asking price. £80m is a reflection of the fact he was 100% certain to make it. He was worth every penny.

The fee for VVD was similarly high when he moved from Southampton because he was 100% certain to make. But it was a lot lower when he moved from Celtic because he was only 30% certain to make it. Go figure.

Transfers are gambles and the prices includes risk fees. Judging them in hindsight is like crying over the fact you picked the wrong six numbers on your lottery ticket.
The fact that many don't understand this. the £80m was not paid for Maguire on pure footballing abilities. He has brought leadership, calmness and control to the team. Prior to signing him, we had no real leader at the back and the games without Maguire we have looked out of sorts.

I still believe if City had spent the £80m on him they would be closer to Liverpool.

We could have spent £60m on a european player who would have taken a season to settle which would have been no help whatsoever to the team.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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To put it simple, he can be considered on the same tier as Bruce & Pallister in the future. That's his potential.

Selling him now will be stupid even with the same fees. We spent the fees for many reasons. Not injury prone, leadership & at good age for our rebuilding project, so his ability as centre back & ball playing alone weren't the factor of the cost.

Who can replace him in this market? Upamecano has bad injury record. Koulibaly is going to be 29 this year, 2 years older than Maguire.
 

The Uncle of All Uncles

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To be honest, one of the things I really like about Maguire is exactly the thing I would hate about an opposition player. I've noticed that since he became captain, he has done a lot of protesting to the referee when there's any doubt about a foul, corner, goal, etc. He gets right up in the ref's face and passionately makes his point. This has led to quite a few overturns of ruling. See the 2-0 at Chelsea recently. He had a big role in getting their two goals disallowed. He sprints straight to the ref and points out he error. This type of behaviour used to rile me when it was John Terry and the like doing it, but it's an important part of leadership on the pitch. He has taken that role and made it his own.

I have no doubt that if Maguire was the captain earlier in the season, then he would have gotten the Everton goal at Old Trafford disalllowed (the one where De Gea was fouled). Utd would have won that match in that case.

For too long over the past few years, the players on the pitch have been too meek and accepting of rulings against Man Utd. It's good to see someone sticking up for the team no matter what.
 

Ekeke

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The fact that many don't understand this. the £80m was not paid for Maguire on pure footballing abilities. He has brought leadership, calmness and control to the team. Prior to signing him, we had no real leader at the back and the games without Maguire we have looked out of sorts.

I still believe if City had spent the £80m on him they would be closer to Liverpool.

We could have spent £60m on a european player who would have taken a season to settle which would have been no help whatsoever to the team.
The difference is AWB doesnt need to be led. Lindelof has made more mistakes and looked weaker this season so he isn't benefitting from "leadership".
 

romufc

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The difference is AWB doesnt need to be led. Lindelof has made more mistakes and looked weaker this season so he isn't benefitting from "leadership".
Yes, that is why players have come out and spoken well about Maguire.

So you know AWB personally? that he doesnt need to be led? a 22 year old having played one season in the PL playing at OT doesn't need to be led?

Leadership comes in more than one form, not just your defensive partners. He has clearly had a good influence on the team and the players.

I know you have an issue with Lindelof, we have conceded the 2nd lowest goals from open play this season. 15 in comparison to 13 of Liverpool.

Not bad for a defence that has weak CB.
 

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It's funny that the discussion has been diverted into Maguire vs Koulibaly vs Upamecano. There are so many center backs all over the world and with such a huge scouting network, I'm not sure why we can't find a decent one with a reasonable price. For example Leicester has upgraded Maguire with Soyuncu using just 20m, who is equally good on the ball, much quicker, much agiler, much more athletic, and much more suited to play a high line.

Besides I've heard enough about "ball playing defenders" and honestly I'm not a fan of it as we barely benefit from it. How often do Maguire and Lindelof successfully play a direct ball through the lines and create a chance? More often than not, we give the ball away unnecessarily in dangerous positions leading to opposition's counter attack. The idea of playing out from the back is to keep the ball and bring the ball forward safely, but with the lack of quality and creativity in midfield, we usually swing the ball forward eventually, making the whole philosophy meaningless. For example the goal against Wolves came from a hopeful long ball from Maguire, just like Smalling always did.

I also don't agree with those who say transfer fee doesn't matter. Of course it does matter because if we had allocated 20m on center back, we'd have had an extra 60m for other positions, meaning we could have invested in a right winger or brought in Bruno half a season earlier. Either way could have brought a larger impact to the team.
Soyuncu is an upgrade on Maguire? Have you actually seend Soyuncu play or just blabbering the same rubbish you've read somewhere. The guy is a solid CBm but error prone and a headless chicken at times. Eric Bailly is his level.
 

VP89

Pogba's biggest fan
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Messages
14,319
I guess you forgot about AWB probably the best defensive rightback in the world.

If it had all happened without him then fair enough, but it didnt.

Who else had this to work with?

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