Man City 2020/21 - General discussion

tomaldinho1

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Kompany, Silva, Fernandinho, Aguero fading. All players that were there before Guardiola. His recruitment, given that hes spent more than any other manager ever at a club, has been poor.
Yh his recruitment has been almost as bad as ours in fairness. The really exciting one was Sane and obviously he didn't stay.

I do think, even if they were to win the CL this season, coming to the PL has made a lot of the Pepites realise he is only human. The PL these days is actually almost like La Liga in a way given it seems less competitive and the top 2 teams have been the same for a while now. It's telling that Pep's best players are/were all players bought by his predecessors. Simply put he should have won more than 2 PL and 1 FA cup given the outrageous spending.
 

padr81

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Yh his recruitment has been almost as bad as ours in fairness. The really exciting one was Sane and obviously he didn't stay.

I do think, even if they were to win the CL this season, coming to the PL has made a lot of the Pepites realise he is only human. The PL these days is actually almost like La Liga in a way given it seems less competitive and the top 2 teams have been the same for a while now. It's telling that Pep's best players are/were all players bought by his predecessors. Simply put he should have won more than 2 PL and 1 FA cup given the outrageous spending.
Less competitive... its had more winners in the 2010's (5) than in the 2000's...(3) or the 90s (4), not to mention the 80's (4). Not since the 60's has there been more winners in a decade.

The top 2 have been the top 2 for a massive 2 years...
 

K Stand Knut

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Less competitive... its had more winners in the 2010's (5) than in the 2000's...(3) or the 90s (4), not to mention the 80's (4). Not since the 60's has there been more winners in a decade.

The top 2 have been the top 2 for a massive 2 years...
Hahaha.

That told him!!!
 

tomaldinho1

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Less competitive... its had more winners in the 2010's (5) than in the 2000's...(3) or the 90s (4), not to mention the 80's (4). Not since the 60's has there been more winners in a decade.

The top 2 have been the top 2 for a massive 2 years...
I probably phrased that wrong as obviously we were 2nd three seasons back as Mou likes to remind people. It's beginning to feel like it is less competitive overall & I think if you look at the data you can see the trend clearly.

For example, Conte set a points total, Pep set a points total, then did it again and Liverpool were pretty close to it. The point differentials between the top 4 are way above average and the points differential between 1st and 20th are as well. Combine these two facts and I don't think the PL is as competitive as it previously was because the top four are less well matched & the gap between the champions and 20th place is way above average.

19/2018/1917/18Average from 01/02 - 19/20
Points difference between top 433272518.75
Points difference between 1st and 20th78826961.5


PS Pep's recruitment has been shite ;)
 

Bazi

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For all the money Pep has spent somehow most of their genuine world-class players still predate his tenure. How can that be?
 

padr81

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I probably phrased that wrong as obviously we were 2nd three seasons back as Mou likes to remind people. It's beginning to feel like it is less competitive overall & I think if you look at the data you can see the trend clearly.

For example, Conte set a points total, Pep set a points total, then did it again and Liverpool were pretty close to it. The point differentials between the top 4 are way above average and the points differential between 1st and 20th are as well. Combine these two facts and I don't think the PL is as competitive as it previously was because the top four are less well matched & the gap between the champions and 20th place is way above average.

19/2018/1917/18Average from 01/02 - 19/20
Points difference between top 433272518.75
Points difference between 1st and 20th78826961.5


PS Pep's recruitment has been shite ;)
For 3 of the last 4 seasons teams have run away with it. But United set the points record for winning margin in 99/2000. In that season United won the league by 18 points and 24 points ahead of 4th place. 58 points ahead of 18th. Its not long since Leicester won the league with 81 points. United also finished 76 points ahead of 20th in 07-08. The single greatest and most dominant defence was Chelsea under Jose who were miles better than even current Liverpool.

The only thing exceptional has been the last two seasons happened in a row ironically won by two different teams which doesn't help the argument its less competitive. The 69 points between 1st and 20th of 17/18 is nothing new. There was also a title decided on goal difference this decade, Spurs being in a 2 horse race yet somehow finishing 3rd. While the top team has run away with the title 3 times, every time has been a different team.

The only difference these days is the records aren't going to United (yet... your day will come again).
 

tomaldinho1

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For 3 of the last 4 seasons teams have run away with it. But United set the points record for winning margin in 99/2000. In that season United won the league by 18 points and 24 points ahead of 4th place. 58 points ahead of 18th. Its not long since Leicester won the league with 81 points. United also finished 76 points ahead of 20th in 07-08. The single greatest and most dominant defence was Chelsea under Jose who were miles better than even current Liverpool.

The only thing exceptional has been the last two seasons happened in a row ironically won by two different teams which doesn't help the argument its less competitive. The 69 points between 1st and 20th of 17/18 is nothing new. There was also a title decided on goal difference this decade, Spurs being in a 2 horse race yet somehow finishing 3rd. While the top team has run away with the title 3 times, every time has been a different team.

The only difference these days is the records aren't going to United (yet... your day will come again).
That's going back further than the sample size I used but I don't really think what you're saying is correct. My sole point is to assess competitiveness by the combination of the points differential between 1st and 20th & 1st and 4th. It's irrelevant that Leicester won with 81 points, the relevant thing is the points differentials which tell you that was a very competitive year (which makes sense as for a long time it looked like there could be multiple winners). Using the 99 season also backs up what I am saying because logically, as incredible a feat as the treble was, you would assume it was not in the most competitive year of the PL; having said that it was still more competitive than the last three seasons using this metric.

Looking at the below I actually respect the Invincibles more than I did before because actually that league was pretty tight, the top four wasn't super competitive (a big factor in why they went unbeaten no doubt) but the weaker teams were picking up a lot more points. The two last examples, City's win in 13/14 and our win in 10/11 (when Berba and Tevez tied on 20 goals) were the most competitive using this method.

19/2018/1917/1804/05 (Mou)03/04 (invincibles)99/0013/14 (city)10/11 (United)
Points difference between top 4332725343024712
Points difference between 1st and 20th 7882696357675647

Re your last comment on records not going to United, hopefully my point on our treble winning team proves I'm not just some bitter fan who wants to feel better about United now being rubbish. I guess this is a non emotional, maybe too mechanical way to measure how competitive a league is each year because it wouldn't matter if you had 10 winners in 10 years or one dominant team who won all 10, what would matter is how close the league was overall in each individual season.

Anyway, appreciate this is a thread on City not the PL as a whole so happy to move the chat.
 

adexkola

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I'm not convinced of your measures used to determine the competitive nature of a league @tomaldinho1. Maybe try looking at variance of the point spread (more informative than 1st - last which might be skewed by outlier point totals?)
 

tomaldinho1

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I'm not convinced of your measures used to determine the competitive nature of a league @tomaldinho1. Maybe try looking at variance of the point spread (more informative than 1st - last which might be skewed by outlier point totals?)
No going to lie, excel had to come out for this one but last season the variance was 300 whereas the 10/11 season (by my metrics the most competitive) was Variance of 155. So a pretty huge difference. Let me know if you want any specific seasons done but potentially I should start a new thread for nerds on this. Will be even more insufferable than xG :lol:
 

padr81

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That's going back further than the sample size I used but I don't really think what you're saying is correct. My sole point is to assess competitiveness by the combination of the points differential between 1st and 20th & 1st and 4th. It's irrelevant that Leicester won with 81 points, the relevant thing is the points differentials which tell you that was a very competitive year (which makes sense as for a long time it looked like there could be multiple winners). Using the 99 season also backs up what I am saying because logically, as incredible a feat as the treble was, you would assume it was not in the most competitive year of the PL; having said that it was still more competitive than the last three seasons using this metric.

Looking at the below I actually respect the Invincibles more than I did before because actually that league was pretty tight, the top four wasn't super competitive (a big factor in why they went unbeaten no doubt) but the weaker teams were picking up a lot more points. The two last examples, City's win in 13/14 and our win in 10/11 (when Berba and Tevez tied on 20 goals) were the most competitive using this method.

19/2018/1917/1804/05 (Mou)03/04 (invincibles)99/0013/14 (city)10/11 (United)
Points difference between top 4332725343024712
Points difference between 1st and 20th7882696357675647

Re your last comment on records not going to United, hopefully my point on our treble winning team proves I'm not just some bitter fan who wants to feel better about United now being rubbish. I guess this is a non emotional, maybe too mechanical way to measure how competitive a league is each year because it wouldn't matter if you had 10 winners in 10 years or one dominant team who won all 10, what would matter is how close the league was overall in each individual season.

Anyway, appreciate this is a thread on City not the PL as a whole so happy to move the chat.
I don't for a second think you are bitter or anything. I love these kind of discussions when people bring numbers to the party. You've also brought some great numbers and made the discussion fun. I enjoy that stuff more than most.
I will say if Wenger hadn't went for not losing and focusing on winning games the Invincibles would have had many more points but likely not been invincible, as Fergie said "lotta draws".
 

footballistic orgasm

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For all the money Pep has spent somehow most of their genuine world-class players still predate his tenure. How can that be?
Do you think he made those players better or that he had no impact on those players?
 

adexkola

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No going to lie, excel had to come out for this one but last season the variance was 300 whereas the 10/11 season (by my metrics the most competitive) was Variance of 155. So a pretty huge difference. Let me know if you want any specific seasons done but potentially I should start a new thread for nerds on this. Will be even more insufferable than xG :lol:
Awesome :lol: I'm convinced

If you start the thread for nerds I'll be right behind you with Excel and R
 

Mogget

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No going to lie, excel had to come out for this one but last season the variance was 300 whereas the 10/11 season (by my metrics the most competitive) was Variance of 155. So a pretty huge difference. Let me know if you want any specific seasons done but potentially I should start a new thread for nerds on this. Will be even more insufferable than xG :lol:
Please do, it sounds like it would be very interesting (to me anyway)
 

padr81

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No Laporte, no KDB, half fit Aguero... I fancy Arsenal.
 

rotherham_red

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So now also Ake's injured and Fernandinho is out for 4-6 weeks.
This season is going to be a case of who's left standing at the end. And then we have the Euros next summer and the World Cup straight after. The impact Covid will have on the careers of some of these players will be ridiculous.

If the powers that be had any shame, we wouldn't be having full schedules right now.
 

Andy_Cole

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This season is going to be a case of who's left standing at the end. And then we have the Euros next summer and the World Cup straight after. The impact Covid will have on the careers of some of these players will be ridiculous.

If the powers that be had any shame, we wouldn't be having full schedules right now.
They really need to sacrifice some. Maybe the domestic cups. International football too. It had to be a limited season this year.
 

fezzerUTD

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This season is going to be a case of who's left standing at the end. And then we have the Euros next summer and the World Cup straight after. The impact Covid will have on the careers of some of these players will be ridiculous.

If the powers that be had any shame, we wouldn't be having full schedules right now.
Shocking international break doesn't help when them games are worthless. It should be used to rest players but keep games going just do what they did a couple of years ago and rotate the weeks.
 

rotherham_red

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Shocking international break doesn't help when them games are worthless. It should be used to rest players but keep games going just do what they did a couple of years ago and rotate the weeks.
Absolutely.

What we're doing right now is having the exact same amount of games as we would in a normal season but having them in 5 less weeks. Putting Int'l breaks in those spots where a mandatory 2 week break could have been used, just shows the greed these FAs, TV companies, and even the football clubs have, as well as how little they think of the players.
 

cyberman

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They really need to sacrifice some. Maybe the domestic cups. International football too. It had to be a limited season this year.
Clubs themselves will sacrifice the cups. We literally rested players for a FA cup semi final a few months ago ffs
 

Raw

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City having an injury crisis, Liverpool with their best defender out for the season.

Guess Everton really are gonna win the league!
 

BigDunc9

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City having an injury crisis, Liverpool with their best defender out for the season.

Guess Everton really are gonna win the league!
Sadly Richarlison is suspended for the next 3 games and James is out of this weekends match with Southampton after a terrible tackle by Van Dyke. Hopefully somebody can get the big cnut back.
 

Leroy The Red

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So now also Ake's injured and Fernandinho is out for 4-6 weeks.
I’d strap in for the injuries... Think you guys will get more than most other teams. You play an intense high tempo game. Lots of international players and Pep doesn’t tend to rest players in the lesser games. Just don’t let Liverpool win the league, that’s all we ask of you shitbags.
 

padr81

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I’d strap in for the injuries... Think you guys will get more than most other teams. You play an intense high tempo game. Lots of international players and Pep doesn’t tend to rest players in the lesser games. Just don’t let Liverpool win the league, that’s all we ask of you shitbags.
Heard yestreday during the match we don't have a midweek off thats not an international break (where most our squad will be playing anyway) till after Christmas. As you said given the high pressing and intensity we play at, I think we'll be scraping together a side at times despite our squad. That said if any squad has no excuses its us. The key is having the big players fit and available for the bigger games (it already looks like KDB may miss Liverpool and Spurs.)
 

Josh 76

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Since that 5-2 battering by Leicester. City have kept 4 clean sheets and conceded only 1 goal in each of the other 3 games. Has Diaz made a big difference ?
Is Laporte and Diaz becoming the best centre back partnership in Europe?
 

archiebald

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Since that 5-2 battering by Leicester. City have kept 4 clean sheets and conceded only 1 goal in each of the other 3 games. Has Diaz made a big difference ?
Is Laporte and Diaz becoming the best centre back partnership in Europe?
Still early to conclude but on paper and based on what we've seen out of each of them individually, this might be City's best CB pairing in the oil money era after the brief Kompany Laporte partnership they had in their back to back seasons.
 

Pep's Suit

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Yeah, Dias' been great (also Cancelo's good at LB) but I think overall City seem more pragmatic now for several reasons. Rather trying to win 2-0 instead of attack, attack, attack.
 

adexkola

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Early days but they have sorted out their midfield imbalance issue, Silva provides the energy that was lacking between Rodri and Gundogan, and the forwards are pressing again. Plus Dias is a reliable partner to Laporte.
 

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I agree it's mostly a combination of factors rather than just Diaz, they are more pragmatic and not as adventurous, lots of players coming back from injury help to stabilize the team.

I disagree with cancelo at LB though. He is very bad at defending, also doesn't help pep seem to give him a free role when they have possession. He pops up at midfield and forward positions.
 

adexkola

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I agree it's mostly a combination of factors rather than just Diaz, they are more pragmatic and not as adventurous, lots of players coming back from injury help to stabilize the team.

I disagree with cancelo at LB though. He is very bad at defending, also doesn't help pep seem to give him a free role when they have possession. He pops up at midfield and forward positions.
Very bad is harsh. He's not a lockdown defender like Wan-Bissaka (few are), yet he's a step up from Mendy.

Plus he's been very industrious going forward.

If City need a more defensive option at LB they can play Ake there.