Man Utd fans asked about safe standing at Old Trafford

Oscie

New Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2016
Messages
3,680
This happens every few years doesn't it? Remember a few years ago Villa were the ones surveying fans on the issue. It's something clubs are aware fans want, which is why we see these reports/surveys every so often. I know it happens elsewhere but I think that clubs in this country will be too squeamish to do anything about it.
 

wolvored

Full Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2016
Messages
4,739
The whole point is that it's safe standing. The only resemblance to the terraces of old is that people will be stood up.

Did you watch the video in the BBC link to Celtic's arrangement earlier? Every single row is segregated, no one can crush forward.
I still went to matches after that and stood but always stood as far to the back that I could so when the crowd swerved forward I was out of it. I was just incensed about the poster to my thread saying Its this kind of thinking that needs stopping. Its easier said when its never happened to you.
 

matherto

ask me about our 50% off sale!
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
14,373
Location
St. Helens
I still went to matches after that and stood but always stood as far to the back that I could so when the crowd swerved forward I was out of it. I was just incensed about the poster to my thread saying Its this kind of thinking that needs stopping. Its easier said when its never happened to you.
I've been in crowds where I've felt I was about to be crushed. I'm from a rugby league town and they've always had standing, of the old style. Knowsley Road in St. Helens was a deathtrap until it closed and I remember very often as a child being crushed with the sway of the crowd.

Don't be incensed by your own damn ignorance. The type of standing involved now is absolutely nothing like it was back then, nothing at all. So telling me you got crushed back in 1979 (yeah, that's 37 fecking years ago, times have changed mate) has precisely feck all relevance to the current debate. That thinking that it'll be like the days of old with hardly any safety involved is exactly what is holding us back and blinding us from the truth that standing in itself isn't unsafe and can be controlled with more safety than seating now. It's a lot better being stood up with an individual rail in front of you than it is a seat, the chances of being pushed forward and crushed are ridiculously small with rail seating in place.
 

wolvored

Full Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2016
Messages
4,739
I've been in crowds where I've felt I was about to be crushed. I'm from a rugby league town and they've always had standing, of the old style. Knowsley Road in St. Helens was a deathtrap until it closed and I remember very often as a child being crushed with the sway of the crowd.

Don't be incensed by your own damn ignorance. The type of standing involved now is absolutely nothing like it was back then, nothing at all. So telling me you got crushed back in 1979 (yeah, that's 37 fecking years ago, times have changed mate) has precisely feck all relevance to the current debate. That thinking that it'll be like the days of old with hardly any safety involved is exactly what is holding us back and blinding us from the truth that standing in itself isn't unsafe and can be controlled with more safety than seating now. It's a lot better being stood up with an individual rail in front of you than it is a seat, the chances of being pushed forward and crushed are ridiculously small with rail seating in place.
I put my two penneth in saying why Im not a fan but because it doesnt agree with you I cant have an opinion. Grow up!
 

matherto

ask me about our 50% off sale!
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
14,373
Location
St. Helens
I put my two penneth in saying why Im not a fan but because it doesnt agree with you I cant have an opinion. Grow up!
You can have an opinion and that's fine but do you not see the stupidity of this one?

Do some bloody research into the matter and form your opinion on that and not an anecdotal story from nearly 40 years ago.

It's a whole different universe between then and now. Therefore your opinion is based on outdated and biased experience and concurrently, wrong (insofar as an opinion can be 'wrong').

Grown ups form opinions based on evidence, I'd suggest you take a look.
 
Joined
Jul 31, 2015
Messages
8,445
Location
Somewhere out there
Are you for real? I could of got crushed to death as well as a little boy and others. Do you think whatever a report says I'd want to back bringing back standing?
He's for real, but what you are doing here is the equivalent of saying that you nearly had a car crash in a Skoda back in the 80's due to the poor build quality of the car, and that you would never again get into a Skoda, not even in 2016 built by a completely different company with an amazing safety record.

No-one wants to bring back the old terracing, it was absolutely dangerous and will never be allowed back, and as you say yourself, rightfully so. "Safe" standing though is a completely different thing altogether and the Germans are an amazing example of how well it works even in enormous boucing stands like Dortmund's yellow wall.
 
Last edited:

Blackwidow

Full Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
6,186
The Allianz-Arena has changed 2 blocks from seating areas in standing areas 2 years ago. They changed the system (called Stuttgarter Modell) how the seating is changed to standing places... You see that in the video. Like this it just takes some hours.


That is how it looks as seats


As standing area

 
Last edited:

Sultan

السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته
Staff
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
44,098
Location
Don't talk unless you can improve the silence
@Sultan I deleted the email by mistake and emptied my trash before reading this thread, now I can't find a link to the survey anywhere so I don't suppose there's any chance you could PM the link if it's not personal?

I think this is the shot in the arm English football so desperately needs to bring back the atmosphere to large arenas like OT. Just image the red wall at the Stretty :drool:
Hi mate,

These are personal to season ticket holders only.
 

Oscie

New Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2016
Messages
3,680
Not against the idea but think that the hope that it'll suddenly improve atmosphere at grounds if people are allowed to stand is optimistic. Economic, demographic and cultural shifts are responsible for changing in-match atmospheres as much as anything. Feels a bit like 'if I get my haircut my wife might decide to love me again' optimism. It won't hurt and I think it's a good idea but it's definitely not going to be the magic bullet some think it will.
 
Joined
Jul 31, 2015
Messages
8,445
Location
Somewhere out there
Not against the idea but think that the hope that it'll suddenly improve atmosphere at grounds if people are allowed to stand is optimistic. Economic, demographic and cultural shifts are responsible for changing in-match atmospheres as much as anything. Feels a bit like 'if I get my haircut my wife might decide to love me again' optimism. It won't hurt and I think it's a good idea but it's definitely not going to be the magic bullet some think it will.
I disagree strongly @Oscie, just going to an all seater CL game in Germany compared to a league game in the same stadium is a massive eye opener.

Being able to "bounce" in a stand is a huge part of creating an atmosphere.

A point @UnrelatedPsuedo also raises in here is bang on, just imagine Glastonbury being made "all seater".. do you seriously think the atmosphere would be the same? Or an all-seater Metallica concert? The answer is fairly obvious.
 
Last edited:

Randall Flagg

Worst of the best
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
45,064
Location
Gorey
I think it's a good idea for those who want to stand

I only go to OT once sometimes twice a season so my opinion really doesn't matter, but me personally I do not like to stand. And every time I go people around me and in front of me do stand, so it gives me little choice. And I know it is frowned upon to have an issue with this so I grin and bear it.

If safe standing does come in, I would like to think they will be stricter in the seating areas, in that everyone must take their seat.
 

Sandikan

aka sex on the beach
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
27,046
I put my two penneth in saying why Im not a fan but because it doesnt agree with you I cant have an opinion. Grow up!
I'm with you mate, albeit it without the scary experience.

The good thing, is that if there is any "safe standing" brought back in, it'll be a tiny area, and it'll be very much your choice to go into it.
So the people who want to can, and those of us who would hate to be in packed standing, don't have to.
(as said before i'm happy to stand in league 2 fare as it's so open and spacious)

On another note, in 20 years watching football, I've only seen people fall down rows in seats twice.
Once was at Luton, which if any of you have ever been in the home end, would note how bloody dangerous it is. Two tiers of step per seat, as they clearly just wopped seating in over existing terraces years ago. And extremely narrow leg room. The mix of the two means if anyone over does their celebration they can knock you like skittles.

Other time, a couple of boozed up morons at Old Trafford, again overdoing their celebrations and falling onto a couple of young women. Then spending the rest of the game saying stuff like "that's what happens" and if you "don't like it, go to ballet"
 

matherto

ask me about our 50% off sale!
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
14,373
Location
St. Helens
The areas that were standing before Hillsborough should be safe standing areas.
Quite aside from the fact that many clubs have moved into new stadia, why on earth should we be hawking back to 1989 to judge what would be the best areas for safe standing now?

Sadly I think as soon as you mention standing at a football match, it'll forever be linked with Hillsborough in this country and the emotion of the minority will outweigh the feelings and evidence of the majority.

The fact that they were standing had absolutely nothing to do with why they died and we need to get as far away from Hillsborough as we can when it comes to this issue but I'm afraid it'll never happen.
 

facund

Full Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2013
Messages
1,226
Most of the standing solutions I have seen touted are so far removed from the terracing that brought about the issues it doesn't merit comparison.

I think they would be far better re-branding the idea from "safe standing" as it ends up being so evocative. The reality is that most of the solutions are a tweak of the current systems with allocated seats/spots (therefore complete control of attendances) and segregated rows (therefore in-built crowd control). It would essentially be legitimising and catering to a portion of football fans that currently exist, those that choose to stand (in their allocated spot) at the match. I'm not sure there is an argument for improved atmosphere at all though as it is basically going to be the same people but in a different (although often identical) stance. Are people discernibly more vocal when standing as opposed to sitting?

The only real benefit I see is that people that want to stand can do so without any fuss about disrupting other match goers and those that want to sit can do so without the hassle of that invariably tall swine who insists on standing right in front of them all game.
 

ZupZup

Full Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
1,711
Location
W3104
If safe standing does come in, I would like to think they will be stricter in the seating areas, in that everyone must take their seat.
You'd like to see that fans in the most vocal section of the stadium are forced to remain seated during matches after an introduction of safe standing? They're trying to improve the atmosphere... not kill it!
 

wolvored

Full Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2016
Messages
4,739
I'm with you mate, albeit it without the scary experience.

The good thing, is that if there is any "safe standing" brought back in, it'll be a tiny area, and it'll be very much your choice to go into it.
So the people who want to can, and those of us who would hate to be in packed standing, don't have to.
(as said before i'm happy to stand in league 2 fare as it's so open and spacious)

On another note, in 20 years watching football, I've only seen people fall down rows in seats twice.
Once was at Luton, which if any of you have ever been in the home end, would note how bloody dangerous it is. Two tiers of step per seat, as they clearly just wopped seating in over existing terraces years ago. And extremely narrow leg room. The mix of the two means if anyone over does their celebration they can knock you like skittles.

Other time, a couple of boozed up morons at Old Trafford, again overdoing their celebrations and falling onto a couple of young women. Then spending the rest of the game saying stuff like "that's what happens" and if you "don't like it, go to ballet"
I was just stating my point of view didnt expect to get attacked for it. If others want to stand thats up to them. Im happy to sit. Its more comfortabler especially when your in your mid 50s.
 

Randall Flagg

Worst of the best
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
45,064
Location
Gorey
You'd like to see that fans in the most vocal section of the stadium are forced to remain seated during matches after an introduction of safe standing? They're trying to improve the atmosphere... not kill it!
No, the most vocal section would obviously be the safe standing section
 

ZupZup

Full Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
1,711
Location
W3104
No, the most vocal section would obviously be the safe standing section
In the same way that the singing section was to be the most vocal section when they implemented that... even though it isn't? They had the power to move the existing ST holders from what is now the singing section too, by giving priority to all those who took part in the trials... that's a bit more problematic when they introduce a safe standing area. How will they get existing ST holders in that area to move? Might be a bit of reluctance to move when I suspect you're in one of the cheapest ST bands...
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

I pity the poor fool who stinks like I do!
Joined
Apr 15, 2015
Messages
4,512
Seems like there are a lot of young people here. Football is not a sport to be watched sitting down. Historically it never has been. You stand up, sing, jump, hug a neighbour. Sitting down mutes all of the emotion.

What's the first thing you do when the ball is near the goal? You stand. It's not cricket.

As a comparison, think of asking the crowd at the main stage at Glastonbury to sit down for the day. How much does that take away from the experience. Or at New Years in a few days. Ask the pub to stay seated. It kills all interaction between people.

We need to remember that standing is the default. Not sitting.

The Taylor report was very good for safety and needed to happen but unwinding aspects of it are just as important to make watching more enjoyable.
 

Sylar

Full Member
Joined
May 15, 2007
Messages
23,685
Would love to see this trialed in a section at OT soon. The whole stadium would not be all standing, so its not a problem for those who do want to sit. The one game at OT I stood was Fergies last game in the East stand, and thats because everybody else was. It was great, and pretty much had everybody assigned to a seating area (would have been better without the seats obviously).

Yeah sitting down at the stadium can be bleh, especially during the big games. Think it would help for the smaller games where the atmosphere isnt great.
 

Magnus

Another mad swede
Joined
Aug 21, 2004
Messages
3,475
Location
Balcony BB and after that W3106
Quite aside from the fact that many clubs have moved into new stadia, why on earth should we be hawking back to 1989 to judge what would be the best areas for safe standing now?

Sadly I think as soon as you mention standing at a football match, it'll forever be linked with Hillsborough in this country and the emotion of the minority will outweigh the feelings and evidence of the majority.

The fact that they were standing had absolutely nothing to do with why they died and we need to get as far away from Hillsborough as we can when it comes to this issue but I'm afraid it'll never happen.
I just meant at Old Trafford. Stretford End, United Road and East Lower. Would improve the atmosphere immensly I think
 

ivaldo

Mediocre Horse Whisperer, s'up wid chew?
Joined
Nov 15, 2012
Messages
22,984
Seems like there are a lot of young people here. Football is not a sport to be watched sitting down. Historically it never has been. You stand up, sing, jump, hug a neighbour. Sitting down mutes all of the emotion.

What's the first thing you do when the ball is near the goal? You stand. It's not cricket.

As a comparison, think of asking the crowd at the main stage at Glastonbury to sit down for the day. How much does that take away from the experience. Or at New Years in a few days. Ask the pub to stay seated. It kills all interaction between people.

We need to remember that standing is the default. Not sitting.

The Taylor report was very good for safety and needed to happen but unwinding aspects of it are just as important to make watching more enjoyable.
Odd conclusion, it's those with experiences of it in the 70s and 80s that's against it, not younger generations.
 

Dan

Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
12,134
The Allianz-Arena has changed 2 blocks from seating areas in standing areas 2 years ago. They changed the system (called Stuttgarter Modell) how the seating is changed to standing places... You see that in the video. Like this it just takes some hours.


That is how it looks as seats


As standing area


Do they allow more people in with this standing system?
 

Sultan

السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته
Staff
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
44,098
Location
Don't talk unless you can improve the silence
Odd conclusion, it's those with experiences of it in the 70s and 80s that's against it, not younger generations.
Exactly.

I'm old, and experienced being crushed and out of breath on my first ever visit to watch United for the first time. However, I think we should embrace change. If people want to stand they should be provided with safe facilities.
 
Last edited:

FC Ronaldo

Posts stuff that's been said before in tweet form
Joined
Aug 22, 2014
Messages
11,887
Mods - can someone add a poll to this after today's game? Would be interesting to get a forum-wide view on this if possible. @Damien

Good video and information @Blackwidow - Thanks
 

Big Jim Holton

Full Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2010
Messages
1,513
Location
Manchester
I've been researching this for nearly sixty years now. Every day I have stood up many times, and the conclusion is it's quite safe.
 
Joined
Jul 31, 2015
Messages
8,445
Location
Somewhere out there
Do they allow more people in with this standing system?
Yes, the capacity increases, it's 75,000 for Bundesliga Games (with standing) and 70,000 for games in the Champions League which are all seater games and require the first few rows to be removed as per the attached pic.

So I think it's about an extra 3000 at the Allianz.

The Westfalenstadion has so much safe standing now that it adds about an extra 13000 to the capacity compared to all seated games.
 

Sky1981

Fending off the urge
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
23,107
Location
Under the bright neon lights of sincity
Imo the one that stops incidents are the chairs people sit upon. It restrict movement in a dangerous ways.

Without it, it'll be very risky, forget stampede or stuff like that, a few push can cause proper problem when people are standing, specially when there's celebration and stuff.

All it takes is a few stupid people getting excited. Under normal controlled condition standing or even jumping around won't be an issue, but football fans aren't a controlled situation.

To make it a safe standing they should really allocated a buffer area than what it takes for people to stand normally.

Imo. Better safe than sorry. Besides seating isn't all that bad, probably a semi seat semi standing kind of arrangement where the chair can be auto folded when not being sit on to ensure that people stay in their designated spot
 

Fraser76

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 28, 2014
Messages
381
Location
On a huge yacht somewhere sunny
I don't think the Allianz-Areana system will be allowed here in the UK. If safe standing is allowed at all it will def be the Rail Seating like they have at Celtic Park. The system at the Allianz is too much like a Return to the the stands of the past and because of Hillsborough this will not happen.

This is the safe standing seats at Celtic.
http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/_/rsrc/1424971447137/news/grimbsytownsettobeuktrailblazers/Green rail seats 798.JPG?height=266&width=400

With this style of safe standing there is no danger what's so ever of people getting crushed if the crowd moves forward. Each row has its own rail separating it from the next so no danger of falling forward either which there is now when you stand in the present seating arrangement.

This is a video of the same style of seats at Hanover. Interestingly the video says that there are 3000 seats installed but 5700 places while standing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&v=apX5V1IJCW4



Also this website has a lot of info about the rail seats.
http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk

Sorry about the links but I'm a Newbie and can't post pics or vids.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Burrow

BULB

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 6, 2017
Messages
129
I'd prefer not to have it.
Introduce safe standing and you will have clubs like Liverpool, Newcastle and others with these amazing safe standing areas providing so much atmosphere.
Then you will have ours as dreary and probably recognised as one of the worst in the country.
So no thanks. If you think our standing area would be anything like Celtics you are well and truly off with the fairies.
 

Rood

nostradamus like gloater
Scout
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
17,583
Location
@United_Hour
I'd prefer not to have it.
Introduce safe standing and you will have clubs like Liverpool, Newcastle and others with these amazing safe standing areas providing so much atmosphere.
Then you will have ours as dreary and probably recognised as one of the worst in the country.
So no thanks. If you think our standing area would be anything like Celtics you are well and truly off with the fairies.
Eh? Have you actually been in J stand where standing is unofficially allowed? It's a vast improvement on what was before - of course we can do it as well as anyone else, our away support is proof of that
 

MrPooni

Full Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2012
Messages
2,209
I'd prefer not to have it.
Introduce safe standing and you will have clubs like Liverpool, Newcastle and others with these amazing safe standing areas providing so much atmosphere.
Then you will have ours as dreary and probably recognised as one of the worst in the country.
So no thanks. If you think our standing area would be anything like Celtics you are well and truly off with the fairies.
Why don't you feck off and support Newcastle then? We have the best away fans in the country – Old Trafford on the other hand suffers from a lot of logistical issues that make recreating our away atmospheres way more difficult. Safe standing would be a step in the right direction.