Man Utd set to appoint Director of Football (when hell freezes over)

Johan07

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We have the worst scouts in the PL.

It doesn't take a scout to figure out Maguire and AWB are good.

Prior to that we signed £50m Fred which should tell you everything you need to know about our scouts.
What about Dan James then? No credit to our scouting network there either?
 

romufc

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Exactly.

Ed and any manager we have need help. They need this DoF. Not Matt Judge, Rio Ferdinand, Darren Fletcher or anyone like that, we need someone with a proven record. Look at Campos, with that interview, he's basically offering himself to us. There were reports that Jose wanted him here too, but not for Ed. It's to simple and makes too much sense for him to employ someone like him.
He clearly wants someone he can control, he thinks he can run the whole club on his own and having people that are his puppets.
 

POF

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The problem is not how to choose the right person (there are many competent people), problem is how to shape the hierarchy 'CEO - manager - sporting director' and their responsibilities. I think Woody doesn't want to lose control. And new sporting director might ask some undesirable questions about rebuilding the team (including a lot of investment in transfers) to make us competitive again while Ed & the owners are satisfied with top 4 or top 6.
Yawn.

The complete opposite of what a Sporting Director/Director of Football would do.

Look at the table in this article:

https://www.skysports.com/share/11830099

Luis Campos talking about our need for a Sporting Director/Director Of Football.
The role is exactly what the club needs right now. Completely rebuild the squad in a cost effective manner. The current plan of spending £80m on every player is an issue if you need 10 new players.
 

Adnan

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How do you mean "own"? The club spent a lot, lot of money on our own scouting network. I think we have something like 58 scouts on the wage bill now.
Under Ferguson it was like Martin Ferguson and Lawlor.
I am all for employing a DoF, but he will have to be able to work with the clubs current scouting network; not bring his own in like Mourinho tried to do. Then its just the same mistake as with our managers lately.
What happens if the DoF goes then? Scouting is not something that is done over a season. Its continuity, and following players from 12-13 years of age.
IMO its completely right what we have done by significantly put resources in recruitment and youth. It should have been done much earlier.
The club needs its own structure; regardless of who is CEO, DoF or manager.
Monchi and Zorc are both considered amongst the best DoFs in the business. Both work with scouts from within their own network. So if a top notch DoF is brought in with a proven record, then it's only sensible to provide him with the best conditions to succeed in the job.

Or the alternate choice is to have someone from within the club step up and be the driving force like a Marcel Bout. Barca, Dortmund, Ajax etc have developed their own people to head the football department and were internal appointments. And that very well might be the best way forward for continuity/longevity.
 

Johan07

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Monchi and Zorc are both considered amongst the best DoFs in the business. Both work with scouts from within their own network. So if a top notch DoF is brought in with a proven record, then it's only sensible to provide him with the best conditions to succeed in the job.

Or the alternate choice is to have someone from within the club step up and be the driving force like a Marcel Bout. Barca, Dortmund, Ajax etc have developed their own people to head the football department and were internal appointments. And that very well might be the best way forward for continuity/longevity.
He would be my best bet and also a good choice IMO.
 

Bastian

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Monchi and Zorc are both considered amongst the best DoFs in the business. Both work with scouts from within their own network. So if a top notch DoF is brought in with a proven record, then it's only sensible to provide him with the best conditions to succeed in the job.

Or the alternate choice is to have someone from within the club step up and be the driving force like a Marcel Bout. Barca, Dortmund, Ajax etc have developed their own people to head the football department and were internal appointments. And that very well might be the best way forward for continuity/longevity.
I think it would be an absolute blessing having a top class DoF come in who might retain some of the current scouts but ultimately brings his own team. Do we honestly think that given how the club has been run that those 58 scouts are proving fruitful? Why would that be any different than stockpiling average players?

For me it's needs to fit the same criteria as a new manager - someone external who has more ambition than the club has hitherto shown. Someone who will not accept the feckaboutery that's been going on here for years. Appointing someone from within will just be another lackey who will thank his lucky stars to get a shiny new job with no authority.
 

Alabaster Codify7

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Thread needs to die.

We are never getting one. Even if we ever did, it will be some inexperienced former 'United old boy' who will just be happy to be the public, fan-friendly face to take Woodward out of the line of fire.

If we ever were targeting one, it should come as no shock they were considering people like Darren fecking Fletcher and Mike fecking Phelan.

Former United legend in the manager's seat; former United man as 'DOF' = a nice human shield to protect Woodward from criticism and fan backlash.
 

Adnan

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I think it would be an absolute blessing having a top class DoF come in who might retain some of the current scouts but ultimately brings his own team. Do we honestly think that given how the club has been run that those 58 scouts are proving fruitful? Why would that be any different than stockpiling average players?

For me it's needs to fit the same criteria as a new manager - someone external who has more ambition than the club has hitherto shown. Someone who will not accept the feckaboutery that's been going on here for years. Appointing someone from within will just be another lackey who will thank his lucky stars to get a shiny new job with no authority.
The scouts tbf can only do so much. Unless the whole football side of the club pulls in one direction I feel the potential of the scouts cannot be judged. The same scouts had identified Sadio Mane as a player who was capable of delivering at the club much to the dismay of many posters on here. Felipe Anderson was another according to reports. Under Mourinho it was reported the Portuguese used his own independent scouts for his type of football. So unless we get lucky with a genius like manager, I can't see a solution without a clear vision from top to bottom. Currently we have Ole in charge who seems to want to sign predominantly British players, which will narrow the pool of talent for the scouts to identify and will lead to more frustration from fans regards players we miss out on.

Currently the manager dictates the style/direction of the club which the scouts have to keep in mind when identifying talent for the first team. Having a DoF who implements a strategy going forward which aligns with our traditions/ethos is the way forward and would open up many more potential targets in the longrun and we'd see better players arrive at the club without pigeonholing ourselves like we're doing now.
 

Fluctuation0161

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The problem is not how to choose the right person (there are many competent people), problem is how to shape the hierarchy 'CEO - manager - sporting director' and their responsibilities. I think Woody doesn't want to lose control. And new sporting director might ask some undesirable questions about rebuilding the team (including a lot of investment in transfers) to make us competitive again while Ed & the owners are satisfied with top 4 or top 6.
Totally agree. I was actually thinking about this on the drive to work today. Bloody Woodward. :lol:
 

Fluctuation0161

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Yawn.

The complete opposite of what a Sporting Director/Director of Football would do.

Look at the table in this article:



The role is exactly what the club needs right now. Completely rebuild the squad in a cost effective manner. The current plan of spending £80m on every player is an issue if you need 10 new players.
Not sure why you "yawn". It makes a valid point. If a DOF wants to aim for titles but Woodwards strategy is only to get top 4 with minimal investment, then it could eventually come out in the media and hurt Woodwards piblic image and grip on the club.
 

Bastian

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The scouts tbf can only do so much. Unless the whole football side of the club pulls in one direction I feel the potential of the scouts cannot be judged. The same scouts had identified Sadio Mane as a player who was capable of delivering at the club much to the dismay of many posters on here. Felipe Anderson was another according to reports. Under Mourinho it was reported the Portuguese used his own independent scouts for his type of football. So unless we get lucky with a genius like manager, I can't see a solution without a clear vision from top to bottom. Currently we have Ole in charge who seems to want to sign predominantly British players, which will narrow the pool of talent for the scouts to identify and will lead to more frustration from fans regards players we miss out on.

Currently the manager dictates the style/direction of the club which the scouts have to keep in mind when identifying talent for the first team. Having a DoF who implements a strategy going forward which aligns with our traditions/ethos is the way forward and would open up many more potential targets in the longrun and we'd see better players arrive at the club without pigeonholing ourselves like we're doing now.
We're in complete agreement with regards to the need for a DoF. I have serious doubts as to whether the manager now (or the last 3) chose any direction or decided on most of the players. So the from "top to bottom" approach has me wondering what's top besides people with no serious knowledge of the game. Hence, I want competency brought in. I think it's far more likely that if we approach a top manager or a top DoF that they would not want to join unless the structure is right and they have commensurate authority. Promoting from within is more likely to result in a shadow-puppet.

You're right that of course the scouts can't be evaluated - given the structure. But I'd trust a proven DoF to evaluate the scouting network and change as they saw fit.
 

Adnan

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We're in complete agreement with regards to the need for a DoF. I have serious doubts as to whether the manager now (or the last 3) chose any direction or decided on most of the players. So the from "top to bottom" approach has me wondering what's top besides people with no serious knowledge of the game. Hence, I want competency brought in. I think it's far more likely that if we approach a top manager or a top DoF that they would not want to join unless the structure is right and they have commensurate authority. Promoting from within is more likely to result in a shadow-puppet.

You're right that of course the scouts can't be evaluated - given the structure. But I'd trust a proven DoF to evaluate the scouting network and change as they saw fit.
Agree with most of what you're saying.

Our biggest issue in the last 6/7 years IMO has been to give said managers too much control as far as recruitment goes, and it's back- fired spectacularly with the huge sums that have gone out of the club with very little to show sadly. A manager giving a list to the CEO at the end of the season is such a outdated way of doing things that I can't get my head around it.

A DoF would do the same as far as giving a list of names to Woodward. But the difference would be that he would've done the leg work in holding talks with the players reps many months prior and would have a good understanding of the personality/back ground of said transfer target which would help in closing the deal sooner. The DoF would also build up a rapport with potential transfer target and his family which also would be advantageous.

I'd love to see the likes of Campos given the reigns. But I believe Dutchman Marcel Bout with someone like Murtough as Head of Recruitment could work as internal appointments. Bout is a world class scout and has has worked in several different countries and excelled at his work. He's also been tasked with scouting the opposition at the highest level and will have a very good understanding of the tactical side. Ticks alot of boxes.
 

AneRu

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Agree with most of what you're saying.

Our biggest issue in the last 6/7 years IMO has been to give said managers too much control as far as recruitment goes, and it's back- fired spectacularly with the huge sums that have gone out of the club with very little to show sadly. A manager giving a list to the CEO at the end of the season is such a outdated way of doing things that I can't get my head around it.

A DoF would do the same as far as giving a list of names to Woodward. But the difference would be that he would've done the leg work in holding talks with the players reps many months prior and would have a good understanding of the personality/back ground of said transfer target which would help in closing the deal sooner. The DoF would also build up a rapport with potential transfer target and his family which also would be advantageous.

I'd love to see the likes of Campos given the reigns. But I believe Dutchman Marcel Bout with someone like Murtough as Head of Recruitment could work as internal appointments. Bout is a world class scout and has has worked in several different countries and excelled at his work. He's also been tasked with scouting the opposition at the highest level and will have a very good understanding of the tactical side. Ticks alot of boxes.
Agree with you, in a lot of summers we are always the late bird to deals and sometimes by the time we come in for a player he has already agreed to go elsewhere. I think most of the clubs do the legwork for transfer deals from about March onwards and just seal the deals in the summer. Its impractical to expect a manager to focus on transfers during the run in and do his proper research then but if he has a football man he is in tune with then the necessary research, tapping up etc is done for him. Woodward just has to approve the financials.
 

Adnan

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Agree with you, in a lot of summers we are always the late bird to deals and sometimes by the time we come in for a player he has already agreed to go elsewhere. I think most of the clubs do the legwork for transfer deals from about March onwards and just seal the deals in the summer. Its impractical to expect a manager to focus on transfers during the run in and do his proper research then but if he has a football man he is in tune with then the necessary research, tapping up etc is done for him. Woodward just has to approve the financials.
The difference between us and most teams in that regard is, the other teams have a DoF type figure in charge who has laid down the foundations for said player to be signed.
 

AneRu

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The difference between us and most teams in that regard is, the other teams have a DoF type figure in charge who has laid down the foundations for said player to be signed.
This is what I meant, in agreement with you. We have a lot of players that we missed out on whereby he signs for a team whilst we are coming in with a bid. Having someone working fulltime on recruitment who also knows what he is doing will eliminate this.
 

Adnan

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This is what I meant, in agreement with you. We have a lot of players that we missed out on whereby he signs for a team whilst we are coming in with a bid. Having someone working fulltime on recruitment who also knows what he is doing will eliminate this.
Agree wholeheartedly with you.
 

Bastian

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Of course they have a network and they do due diligence. But for us, the biggest positive would be preventing Woodward and co. from sabotaging the club further. A DoF would ensure continuity so the chopping and changing in terms of managers (if we carry that on) won't have such a devastating effect as well.

Campos makes a very good critical assessment of United, in a sensitive and polite manner (link in the post by @United Hobbit above):

"If the coach is alone heʼs an easy target and he needs help. Everyone needs help in football. You canʼt play alone. Manchester United is an amazing club with an amazing story and for people around the world, it's difficult to understand what has happened to this club.

Itʼs difficult to see this club in difficulty, but if this difficulty is arriving itʼs because you have one problem. In my opinion the problem is sensibility. Itʼs important to work together. Sporting with economy. If you donʼt put these things together I believe you are heading for disaster!

I know very well the situation of Manchester United and other clubs - but, in my opinion, everybody needs a sporting director because the coach needs time to prepare for the next match and the super ego of the players too, so he needs people with sensibility. If a coach is alone it's more difficult now.

A sporting director is very, very important. Of course I believe I could help Manchester United, but I respect the politics of the club. Itʼs very prestigious, very, very prestigious, but in modern football you need a sporting director. If you have a sporting director you have this sensibility.

Before, the coach did everything, but now the information is arriving very fast. Now the world is very different. You need to know players in every part of the world. It's important the club has one project and with a sporting director everyone understands where they go.

You need one person with the sensibility for the sporting and economic situation. In modern football you need both to work together. If they don't work together you have a disaster."
 

red thru&thru

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Of course they have a network and they do due diligence. But for us, the biggest positive would be preventing Woodward and co. from sabotaging the club further. A DoF would ensure continuity so the chopping and changing in terms of managers (if we carry that on) won't have such a devastating effect as well.

Campos makes a very good critical assessment of United, in a sensitive and polite manner (link in the post by @United Hobbit above):

"If the coach is alone heʼs an easy target and he needs help. Everyone needs help in football. You canʼt play alone. Manchester United is an amazing club with an amazing story and for people around the world, it's difficult to understand what has happened to this club.

Itʼs difficult to see this club in difficulty, but if this difficulty is arriving itʼs because you have one problem. In my opinion the problem is sensibility. Itʼs important to work together. Sporting with economy. If you donʼt put these things together I believe you are heading for disaster!

I know very well the situation of Manchester United and other clubs - but, in my opinion, everybody needs a sporting director because the coach needs time to prepare for the next match and the super ego of the players too, so he needs people with sensibility. If a coach is alone it's more difficult now.

A sporting director is very, very important. Of course I believe I could help Manchester United, but I respect the politics of the club. Itʼs very prestigious, very, very prestigious, but in modern football you need a sporting director. If you have a sporting director you have this sensibility.

Before, the coach did everything, but now the information is arriving very fast. Now the world is very different. You need to know players in every part of the world. It's important the club has one project and with a sporting director everyone understands where they go.

You need one person with the sensibility for the sporting and economic situation. In modern football you need both to work together. If they don't work together you have a disaster."
Campos clearly wants the job. We would be very negligent, AGAIN, if we don't offer the job to someone like him.

Someone please just do NOT say we need someone in that role who 'understands the club!'
 

Cee90

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Random I know, but I saw Monchi in London today (in South Woodford / East London of all places).

Wouldn't mind him at United of course.
 

Cee90

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Campos clearly wants the job. We would be very negligent, AGAIN, if we don't offer the job to someone like him.

Someone please just do NOT say we need someone in that role who 'understands the club!'
It's a shame we never got to see him work with Jose at United to be honest.

Could have been a very different story.
 

red thru&thru

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It's a shame we never got to see him work with Jose at United to be honest.

Could have been a very different story.
Mmm, I'm undecided on this. Campos is EXCELLENT at unearthing young talents. Jose recently has been about ready made, here and now. But I can definitely see Campos working very well with our 'latest startey' of young talent. Pair him up with the correct coach, we can start to make some real progress.
 

United Hobbit

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I know they would only list his (Campos') better signings in that article and for all we know the list of duds may outweigh the list of great spots but I was reading them and thinking Please offer him the job!
 

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Mmm, I'm undecided on this. Campos is EXCELLENT at unearthing young talents. Jose recently has been about ready made, here and now. But I can definitely see Campos working very well with our 'latest startey' of young talent. Pair him up with the correct coach, we can start to make some real progress.
What i think he and his small team of scouts are excellent at is evaluating players abilities in isolation and separate how their performance from the team/system they are currently playing in. Will they be able to perform at a higher level or do they have the foundation to potentially develope into a good player.
 

red thru&thru

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What i think he and his small team of scouts are excellent at is evaluating players abilities in isolation and separate how their performance from the team/system they are currently playing in. Will they be able to perform at a higher level or do they have the foundation to potentially develope into a good player.
Look at the players he has brought through. Mbappe. Fabino. One's a world cup winner, the other a CL winner. But to answer your question fully, there is only one way to know!
 

AneRu

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I know they would only list his (Campos') better signings in that article and for all we know the list of duds may outweigh the list of great spots but I was reading them and thinking Please offer him the job!
Naturally when you are working with a strategy that focuses on young players you will have some duds because there are too many variables and some players just don't have it. Just no one remembers the Kariuses and Klavans for Klopp no one will focus on Bakayoko when you have Bernado Silva, Mbappe etc.
 

United Hobbit

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This article @Denis79 linked In the Ole as DOF thread is interesting. I am ashamed to say I didn't know who he was until the earlier article I found on Sky Sports as given we probably wont be appointing one I haven't looked into who would be good. However I'm liking what I read that's a mightily impressive list of players

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11830121/luis-campos-the-transfer-chief-with-the-midas-touch

This part particularly impressed me, not only cooling tensions with Mbappe's family but also working out the best development course for him

"The day I arrived in Monaco - Kylian wasn't happy at the club. I remember meeting his family and the family saying he is not staying, he's not playing, we don't understand. So I watched him play for 10 minutes and I thought, 'He is an amazing player, he needs to stay in the clubʼ.
"So I put him in the B team and within two months he made a difference. So he soon needed to be in the first team. In my opinion he's the next best player in the world."
 

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Not sure why you "yawn". It makes a valid point. If a DOF wants to aim for titles but Woodwards strategy is only to get top 4 with minimal investment, then it could eventually come out in the media and hurt Woodwards piblic image and grip on the club.
The "yawn" is because it's nonsense. The club has spent absolute fortunes over the last 6 years. Are you saying that they deliberately spent it poorly so they would finish no higher than 3rd?

Why does minimal investment guarantee you top 4 but you can't possibly win the league? There's nothing wrong with spending within a budget. That is exactly why you need a Director of Football so you don't waste hundreds of millions like United have in the last 6 years.

No wonder Jose got sacked. Who did he think he is finishing 2nd? The plan is 3rd or 4th for crying out loud!
 

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If you employ a DoF, and things don't improve at the rate fans want, what makes you think said fans will not demand a change of DoF at the same rate as they do a change of manager, thus completely defeating the 'continuity' aspect of any club philosophy?
 

red thru&thru

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If you employ a DoF, and things don't improve at the rate fans want, what makes you think said fans will not demand a change of DoF at the same rate as they do a change of manager, thus completely defeating the 'continuity' aspect of any club philosophy?
All ifs and buts. But what is PLAIN AND SIMPLE to see, the current structure isn't working. You then have to look at the competition and say it working for them? Then once you figure that out, you plan to take their strengths, add it to your weaknesses and aim to be better than them!
 

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Wasnt it like last week woodward said we dont need one as we signed 3 brits all by ourselves
Something like that yeah. He is an idiot and he is about to ruin one of the greatest football club with his inability to run a football club
 

Fluctuation0161

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The "yawn" is because it's nonsense. The club has spent absolute fortunes over the last 6 years. Are you saying that they deliberately spent it poorly so they would finish no higher than 3rd?

Why does minimal investment guarantee you top 4 but you can't possibly win the league? There's nothing wrong with spending within a budget. That is exactly why you need a Director of Football so you don't waste hundreds of millions like United have in the last 6 years.

No wonder Jose got sacked. Who did he think he is finishing 2nd? The plan is 3rd or 4th for crying out loud!
The lack of investment started over 6 years ago from the owners. Look at our net spend since they came in.

The club spent alot of money poorly in the years following 2013 but transfer fees are much higher now, they lurch between managers who require totally different styles of players and they are still paying off those transfers in installments. This has led to the low levels of net spend the last 2 Summer's. £65M per Summer.

Minimal investment doesn't guarantee anything. That's the problem. But strategically, in the Glazers eyes, it has the potential to have the highest return on investment.

For the record, finishing 2nd IS finishing in the top 4. Pull yourself together.
 

Cee90

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The more I read about Campo, the more I get annoyed that we didn’t appoint him under Jose.

Although, on that FullTimeDevils YouTube channel when they interviewed Castles, he did say that Jose referred to external people for advice on transfers, so I would assume the likes of Campo had a say
 

luke511

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Massive need for a decision making suit that's not the manager, based in Manchester rather than London. Ed Woodward & co's disconnect in the London office must have it's negative effects, especially when they're in charge of contract renewals. A director of football based at Carrington is a must.