Iraola or Toppmöller?
What Amorim said after the game indicated some deep issues.
What Amorim said after the game indicated some deep issues.
Managerial contingency plans?
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I just want to see attacking football and the free flowing goals we use to score. These tactical managers can over complicate things. I think they need to be set free like when Ole was in charge and let them enjoy the game.
Sky Sports are certainly dropping this clip in the context of United and Amorim’s precarious position.
Agree but don’t forget how much of an embarrassment we were under Ole towards the end.
It is certainly completely unrelated.
This exactly. He never took the handbrake off and was obsessed with 2 holdings mids. Tactics were questionable at best.
Im obviously not an England fan and if the majority of fans are happy with how he did, then who am I to question? But my take is England should have won a trophy during his time in charge. Im grateful they didn't and I lay that firmly at the feet of Gareth Southgate.
I think he would be terrible for United. Even if you rate his England tenure, there's enough evidence to say he can't hack it at club level. Plenty of managers like that. He has to stop failing upwards at some point.
I don’t know if you’re agreeing with me via irony or not.
It’s just that Sky Sports love to engagement farm over United. The admins certainly browse the web and see what fans are saying. Iraola is a name that has been put forward quite a lot this week.
Almost certainly explainable by the fact that Southgate got better draws than Sven and Capello.
Well timing would have it that Ole and Jose get fired just when Amorim us under the most pressure, two of our former managers with decent win percentages while here 
I think becoming the England national manager is a bit like becoming the Prime Minister - you immediately become a mostly disliked figure there to be sneered about and shot at by most people, and generally always the noise of the negatives to be said about them are much louder than the positives.
That said, while I agree that Southgate did perfectly well as England manager - international management is very different to club management and I don't think he'd be a good appointment for us. And I very much doubt he'd be the one getting us back competing for the main two trophies.
But, yeah, I think there's the usual tendency to ridicule him and undermine his achievements with England just because that's generally the done thing with whoever is the manager.
Got to think Iraola is the best option, second being Glasner. However, much prefer Iraola's tactics to another 5 at the back manager.
Would take either if we have to pull trigger on Ruben
Toppmöller is an interesting name. But I doubt that he would want to leave his hometown now as he has a shot at winning stuff and can get CL experience.
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Stuck with Amorim.
No new manager can get Zirkzee to score from two yards.
Been sceptical of Amorim but his reaction to Mbuemo's goal spoke volumes.
Now you wake up. Now you go back to sleep.
Be the same with any manager.
No new manager can get Zirkzee to score from two yards.
Been sceptical of Amorim but his reaction to Mbuemo's goal spoke volumes.
Now you wake up. Now you go back to sleep.
Be the same with any manager.
Well INEOS have to decide fast
Either keep Amorim and chance of possible relegation or change by this coming week
Either keep Amorim and chance of possible relegation or change by this coming week
They are going to keep Amorim I think.
He has 4 points in 3 matches in the premier league, two matches with signs of decent performances, and losing to Grimsby is a squad mentality issue. A PL second string should beat them comfortably - but when all is said and done it does nothing to change what we need from this season - which is to finish in a CL spot.The league has priority this season, so a league cup knock out - even as embarrasing as this one - won't move the needle.
With that in mind we are already seeing positive improvements from Mount, Cunha and Mbuemo. Sesko wins headers and has great athleticism - just needs to adapt. Mainoo was good against Burnley, so he clearly is trying to fight for his place too. Players were undoubtedly trying against Burnley so there is no clear sign that the manager has lost the dressing room.
They have they have 10 days now to discuss a plan incase it goes downhill after the international break.
That's if Amorim decides to not walk, can't see it happening.
That's if Amorim decides to not walk, can't see it happening.
Palace looking good. Just sayin
I’d have little confidence in Iraola after seeing Bournemouth in the second half of the season last year. They barely won a game. 15 wins from 38. 4 wins in the last 15 games. This ain’t screaming out to me that he’s the man we need. Ten Hag and Amorim have both struggled now to eliminate the individual errors and performances, and that issue won’t go away over night.
Glasner is the best candidate but it’s pointless as he plays the same system as Amorim.
Amorim isn’t going anywhere though I don’t think. Our attack is showing signs that it’s starting to tick now and I think we’ll see enough progress by the end of the season to alleviate many of the concerns.
Glasner is the best candidate but it’s pointless as he plays the same system as Amorim.
Amorim isn’t going anywhere though I don’t think. Our attack is showing signs that it’s starting to tick now and I think we’ll see enough progress by the end of the season to alleviate many of the concerns.
In other words he has lost the plot.
If the board doesn't spend the international week searching for replacements, we really are fecked.
They would be no better than woodward and the glazers.
Surely the fact that Glasner plays the same system and has been actually effective in implementing it should go in his favor?
I was thinking that as well, odd.
I’d be happy with Iraola/De Zerbi/Glasner if any of them are possible.
All I’ve been hearing is that this system doesn’t work in PL (conveniently ignoring Palace). So I’m not convinced the club would risk it again.
It really is a weird situation. Sacking him solves so many issues, you have a ready replacement in Glasner who is premier league proven, or Iraola. We are acting like a promoted club that has managed to snag a top class manager. He's a decent manager but easily replaceable.
Everyone has been complaining about it, if it hasn’t worked under Amorim then why would it work under Glasner? Amorim has proven that he can coach his system well, and I’m sure he’s coaching it the same way here.
Not sure about Iraola for reasons I’ve outlined already. I like De Zerbi but he’s a bit of a nutter, has turned us down once, and his football would be a nightmare for our players. He actively encourages the press to play between the lines, and too often our players make errors or fold like a pack of cards when pressed.
He'd be gone at every other club in the premier league.
Even teams battling relegation would have sacked him for the cold hard fact that he has the team in relegation form!
Getting a new manager in would likely improve us immediately and potentially save the season.
Why would we sack him now? He won against Burnley with a dodgy last-minute penalty. He's the Messiah.
Thing is, we should be beating Burnley every time we play them regardless of who the head coach is.
In days of yore we would beat the likes of Burnley by playing an aggressive attacking style with wing play and front-foot dynamics. Entertainment goes hand in hand with winning. United aren't some newly promoted small fry who just want a win, no matter how ugly, how fortuitous, or how undeserved. Winning is great but this sport is about thrills and emotion as well. It's why LVG and to a lesser extend Mourinho were poor fits for United.
I think the jury is in and has rendered its verdict on Amorim. When you compare the Burnley game against Amorim games last year, yes, marked signs of improvement and we look a lot better than we did. When you compare that to the clubs in the CL spots, we're miles away.
And we got here through spending 200m on 3 new attackers, and are talking about spending another 100m on Baleba, and another 25m (actually a bargain) on Lammens, and others are saying we need 2 good (not merely average) wingbacks for this system to really work. So a paltry 400m to get Amorimball working, and ultimately, is it even fun to watch, irregardless of win percentage?
Thing is, we should be beating Burnley every time we play them regardless of who the head coach is.
In days of yore we would beat the likes of Burnley by playing an aggressive attacking style with wing play and front-foot dynamics. Entertainment goes hand in hand with winning. United aren't some newly promoted small fry who just want a win, no matter how ugly, how fortuitous, or how undeserved. Winning is great but this sport is about thrills and emotion as well. It's why LVG and to a lesser extend Mourinho were poor fits for United.
I think the jury is in and has rendered its verdict on Amorim. When you compare the Burnley game against Amorim games last year, yes, marked signs of improvement and we look a lot better than we did. When you compare that to the clubs in the CL spots, we're miles away.
And we got here through spending 200m on 3 new attackers, and are talking about spending another 100m on Baleba, and another 25m (actually a bargain) on Lammens, and others are saying we need 2 good (not merely average) wingbacks for this system to really work. So a paltry 400m to get Amorimball working, and ultimately, is it even fun to watch, irregardless of win percentage?
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Because people always mix up "formation" and "system". Glasner and Amorim use the same formation. Their interpretation of that (their system) is vastly different.
I disagree. Fundamentally I think they’re very similar, but I think Palace have a more physical and athletic side, with different profile players and a much more natural CM pairing. Funnily enough though, I feel that Amorim plays it a bit more fluidly. I disagree with the overall idea that he’s rigid, and we’ve seen a number of different approaches already throughout pre season and this season so far. Palace, when I’ve seen them, have a very similar shape to us when in the 3421, but have a different profile of player. Both like to hit the front man and play off him, both allow their WBs to advance, both allow a CB to push up and overload at times.
Another thing I’d say about Glasner’s system is that he doesn’t press as high as Amorim and will sit in a 541/55 practically. How would this be received by United fans? Will it get more from our team? We already see people moaning about it when we do it now and then. Where they are good is in finding their WBs in space early, stretching teams and exploiting the space these players have. Though I’ve seen a good improvement in this so far this season from us and it’s something I mentioned yesterday as being a positive from the Burnley game. It’s also something that Sporting did very well and will no doubt be something we try to improve on.
I think he’s doing a great job at Palace but I don’t see hope how these slight nuances in his approach would bear much change in the way we play. I still feel strongly that we are too often let down by individual errors too, which is something that has lingered for the last few years.
There should always be a contingency plan and a list of possible candidates. That should be an on-going process, just as it should for every position in the team, and the coaching staff throughout the age levels. Given the amount of money the club turns over every year and how many people it employs, that should be an absolute minimum requirement in terms of competence.
My doubt is whether they have done things on the fly in the last year and a half, and whether there actually is a coherent vision behind all the jargon.
He's a nearly man. He's in the same category as a lot of British managers like Moyes, Hodgson, Potter where they can do a good enough job for teams that have low expectations, but they just aren't going to lead teams to Premier League's and Champions league titles.
I think the Southgate talk is all moot anyway as his big mate Dan Ashworth will have warned him off the job under the current regime.
At 55 it's quite late in the day to start this job too. It would make him one of the oldest managers in the Premier League.
I think Southgate might be done with football management.
A stabiliser (and the perfect lightning rod as well) getting Utd back to 6-8th asap is the rationale way toward a CL spot imho. Any other option is just magical thinking, at this time. Iraola, Glasner and similar profiles would be eaten alive after two months.
I disagree on the styles being similar (in football terms, I guess there's a limit to how differently teams can play) but your point on the lower press is why we should not take on Glasner - great coach, clearly super adaptable (he also uses 433) and punches well above the collective weight of his squad but he would seem quite a 'defensive' manager if that makes sense. Basically Ole with a bit more tactical acumen to get over the line in some minor cups (i.e. ETH in domestic cups or post Real meltdown Mou).
If there is to be a change, Iraola is the only choice I see as being sensible - unbelievably aggressive press which is in turn brings an offensive style, he essentially took a lot from Bielsa but without becoming a purist who never adapts. Main thing though is we've seen even with sales the rest of the team fit in seamlessly (they lost 3 of their starting back 4 un the summer to PSG, Pool and Real) which is an issue you don;t really have to work against at a club like United.
Jose, Ole and ETH all available. Take your pick.
Would you really bank on Iraola not flopping though? He led Bournemouth to 4 wins from the last 15 games last season. Whilst he's doing a decent job, he doesn't have that feeling of something potentially great to me. There is also no experience of a job of this magnitude, no real success on his CV. On what basis do we think he'd do well here other than him playing a different formation to Amorim and taking Bournemouth to mid table?
I mean, I never saw the implosion of last season coming so anything is possible. I see it very simply; I think the PL is a unique league in terms of the physical requirements needed and a lot of coaches who have been able to look good elsewhere often find it challenging to bring those same ideas to the PL. Therefore, you have two choices:
- Hire an external big name - I would only support this if someone blatantly great was available i.e. Klopp overpowering Bayern with Dortmund whilst also doing well in the CL, or Mou when he came through at Porto. These candidates are bloody rare, we were lucky to get one 40 odd years ago and it transformed us. Due respect to ETH and Amorim, as examples, but neither had really done anything close to those other names. If we throw money at them, or similar managers, they will likely win minor trophies and should get us back to the EL places because they are clearly not terrible given their body of work, but the question becomes is that time/money better spent elsewhere?
- As an aside this is my worry with Amorim, we were so bad last season I feel it's done a number on people's expectations where we could have a poor season and finish around 8th and people would think it was progress.
- Hire a PL manager - you know there will be no shock tactically, no adjustment needed and you also know how well their style will broadly translate to the league. You look at how they play and then ask, how much better would this setup be with better players in certain positions. I guess we will see how Frank does, I think he'll do well for what it's worth, but I think Iraola is the one who actually brings offensive football despite being with a relative financial minnow. That for me would be worth the risk. Sure there'd be unknowns but then I still don't really get why our fanbase is so scared of sacking managers, let's say we hired Iraola and he just kind of limped along around where Amorim is now, you'd just sack him after 15-20 games and get an interim in to play 4231 counter football to ensure we stay up comfortably and hire again in the summer.
I kind of don’t really disagree with anything you have said and a lot of it is points I was myself making for a long time under ETH. But, perhaps I’m the most naive bastard going for thinking this, something makes me think we’re close to getting somewhere under Amorim.
I know it’s mental given last season, but I just hear what he says and how he sees football and I just always find myself agreeing with him. In the same way I did Jose. I think there’s some correlation between how they both view football even though their systems are very different. I think it’s that that makes me feel like he will find the answers if given time and that he very much knows what he’s doing.
So perhaps I’ll end up with egg on my face in the end, and I’m not going to lose sleep if he eventually needs to go. But deep down I’m hoping he gets a bit more time just to see if my hunch is correct. If the Sporting Amorim was on the market now I’d take him over Iraola and Glasner, so they don’t really appeal even though I really do think Glasner is going places. The guys I liked when we were looking for a coach are all employed elsewhere now (Frank, De Zerbi and Tuchel) and I don’t see anybody who looks like it’s worth rolling the dice with.
Xavi as well…
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