Manchester City 19/20 season

BlueMoonOutcast

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Pep Guardiola isn't perfect, but he's the only manager in history whose Champions League wins are ignored.
 

Varun

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Why the feck are we having lengthy debates about United's success and discussing Klopp + Pool in this thread?

Warnings incoming for anyone who derails this thread further.
 

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Pep Guardiola isn't perfect, but he's the only manager in history whose Champions League wins are ignored.
His wins are not being ignored, they are being openly discussed as not being enough for the privileged positions he's found himself in.
 

Paul_Scholes18

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Can Pep stop Moyes progression towards survival? Or is Moyes going to tactically beat him again only to give away late goals anyway?
 

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Pep Guardiola isn't perfect, but he's the only manager in history whose Champions League wins are ignored.
I'm actually with you on this one. He's only 49 years old so he's plenty of time to add more to his total. Seems to be the thing on here that some players/managers are being compared to others who've completed their time in football. Regardless of the advantages Pep has had in his managerial career he's obviously a top class manager who'd have been a success in any era.
 

_00_deathscar

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I'm actually with you on this one. He's only 49 years old so he's plenty of time to add more to his total. Seems to be the thing on here that some players/managers are being compared to others who've completed their time in football. Regardless of the advantages Pep has had in his managerial career he's obviously a top class manager who'd have been a success in any era.
I don't think anyone's debating that (or shouldn't be anyway).

What IS up for debate, essentially, is has he made the most of his resources? Specifically, post Barcelona.
He's clearly been a success at both Bayern and Man City - and yes, the expectations, because of the position he found himself in, are sky high - but you could argue that he's basically 'just delivered' (albeit in incredible style) rather than succeeded expectations...which hinge around Europe.
 

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I don't think anyone's debating that (or shouldn't be anyway).

What IS up for debate, essentially, is has he made the most of his resources? Specifically, post Barcelona.
He's clearly been a success at both Bayern and Man City - and yes, the expectations, because of the position he found himself in, are sky high - but you could argue that he's basically 'just delivered' (albeit in incredible style) rather than succeeded expectations...which hinge around Europe.
As the City poster pointed out, he's won 2 CL titles which is exactly the same number as Ferguson won in his entire time as United manager. I don't recall him ever being criticized too much over it. It's not like he was short of a few bob to spend either.
 

njred

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I don't think anyone's debating that (or shouldn't be anyway).

What IS up for debate, essentially, is has he made the most of his resources? Specifically, post Barcelona.
He's clearly been a success at both Bayern and Man City - and yes, the expectations, because of the position he found himself in, are sky high - but you could argue that he's basically 'just delivered' (albeit in incredible style) rather than succeeded expectations...which hinge around Europe.
It’s not easy though is it to get past 2 CLs. Only 3 Mgrs have done it but Pep is young. I think he will get at least 3
 

_00_deathscar

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As the City poster pointed out, he's won 2 CL titles which is exactly the same number as Ferguson won in his entire time as United manager. I don't recall him ever being criticized too much over it. It's not like he was short of a few bob to spend either.
See the part about 'post Barcelona'.

And almost no manager has had the resources Pep Guardiola had, financially (well, Man City).
 

DAK222

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I don't think anyone's debating that (or shouldn't be anyway).

What IS up for debate, essentially, is has he made the most of his resources? Specifically, post Barcelona.
He's clearly been a success at both Bayern and Man City - and yes, the expectations, because of the position he found himself in, are sky high - but you could argue that he's basically 'just delivered' (albeit in incredible style) rather than succeeded expectations...which hinge around Europe.
I think that beyond a certain point, "more resources" don't add much to a CL campaign unless you're talking about Messi or Ronaldo. What it does is allow you to challenge strongly on multiple fronts and Pep's been very successful in that. It's just that when you're playing against other elite teams in a knockout competition, the margin for error is so small. A poor 15 minutes can easily seal your fate. Of course, Pep hasn't always helped himself in the later stages of the CL with some unusual decisions on the pitch that didn't come off. Other times he's been screwed by VAR (or lack thereof :D ). He easily deserved at least one final with Bayern.
 

redman5

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See the part about 'post Barcelona'.

And almost no manager has had the resources Pep Guardiola had, financially (well, Man City).
So we're only talking about 6 seasons then ? 5 of which the CL were won by the Spanish giants (4 Real & 1 Barca). Remember this is a Barcelona side that had added Suarez & Neymar to their already talented squad yet they only managed one CL win in that 6 years.
 

_00_deathscar

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So we're only talking about 6 seasons then ? 5 of which the CL were won by the Spanish giants (4 Real & 1 Barca). Remember this is a Barcelona side that had added Suarez & Neymar to their already talented squad yet they only managed one CL win in that 6 years.
Which is why none of those Barca managers, even Luis Enrique who won a fecking treble, are particularly looked on favourably...

Not sure what argument you're making with that statement there.
 

redman5

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Which is why none of those Barca managers, even Luis Enrique who won a fecking treble, are particularly looked on favourably...

Not sure what argument you're making with that statement there.
I'm pointing out that the strength of Spain's top 2 clubs were a significant factor in Guardiola failing to add to the 2 CL's he won when he was at Barcelona. It's irrelevant that successful managers at the Nou Camp were sacked. That just shows how high the expectations were at Real & Barca. Even now, failing to win the Champions League at either of those clubs means a very short shelf life for whoever's in charge.
 

_00_deathscar

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I'm pointing out that the strength of Spain's top 2 clubs were a significant factor in Guardiola failing to add to the 2 CL's he won when he was at Barcelona. It's irrelevant that successful managers at the Nou Camp were sacked. That just shows how high the expectations were at Real & Barca. Even now, failing to win the Champions League at either of those clubs means a very short shelf life for whoever's in charge.
Okay - here's a question...Klopp will have reached two European Cup finals, winning one, and will win the League in the last 3 seasons at Liverpool (plus however far they get in Europe).
Assuming Man City doesn't come close to winning the European Cup again (let's say knocked out by Real or in the next round at the latest - so no semi final appearance, yet again) and also don't win any further domestic Cups, are his two titles and multiple domestic cups better than Klopp's ruthlessly dominant league title and European Cup?

That's essentially what he is being judged against - yes I know resources aren't everything but they go a long way towards aiding the team. He has two league titles in four seasons, which is impressive when judged in terms of style etc, but I do think Man City would have expected more than two titles and domestic Cup domination in four seasons when they took on Pep and gave him the best part of a half a billion pounds (or is it more? I lost count) in addition to the incredible core (Aguero, De Bruyne, Silva, Sterling, Fernandinho, Kompany) he already had at Man City.

It's just a relative thing we're judging him against - essentially against his own past successes and the resources he's been afforded.
 

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Okay - here's a question...Klopp will have reached two European Cup finals, winning one, and will win the League in the last 3 seasons at Liverpool (plus however far they get in Europe).
Assuming Man City doesn't come close to winning the European Cup again (let's say knocked out by Real or in the next round at the latest - so no semi final appearance, yet again) and also don't win any further domestic Cups, are his two titles and multiple domestic cups better than Klopp's ruthlessly dominant league title and European Cup?

That's essentially what he is being judged against - yes I know resources aren't everything but they go a long way towards aiding the team. He has two league titles in four seasons, which is impressive when judged in terms of style etc, but I do think Man City would have expected more than two titles and domestic Cup domination in four seasons when they took on Pep and gave him the best part of a half a billion pounds (or is it more? I lost count) in addition to the incredible core (Aguero, De Bruyne, Silva, Sterling, Fernandinho, Kompany) he already had at Man City.

It's just a relative thing we're judging him against - essentially against his own past successes and the resources he's been afforded.
very much agree. Esp “in addition to the incredible core... “

it should also be borne in mind that Uniteds oft trotted out”big expenditure” should be seen in the same light of a shit core, having never replacing Neville, Rio, Vidic, Evra.. and that’s just the defence, until it was far too late @nd the damage was well and truly done - but yes, you make a good point.

Funny how people apply a different logic when it suits. I mean that as a general comment and not necessarily directed at you.
 

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Okay - here's a question...Klopp will have reached two European Cup finals, winning one, and will win the League in the last 3 seasons at Liverpool (plus however far they get in Europe).
Assuming Man City doesn't come close to winning the European Cup again (let's say knocked out by Real or in the next round at the latest - so no semi final appearance, yet again) and also don't win any further domestic Cups, are his two titles and multiple domestic cups better than Klopp's ruthlessly dominant league title and European Cup?

That's essentially what he is being judged against - yes I know resources aren't everything but they go a long way towards aiding the team. He has two league titles in four seasons, which is impressive when judged in terms of style etc, but I do think Man City would have expected more than two titles and domestic Cup domination in four seasons when they took on Pep and gave him the best part of a half a billion pounds (or is it more? I lost count) in addition to the incredible core (Aguero, De Bruyne, Silva, Sterling, Fernandinho, Kompany) he already had at Man City.

It's just a relative thing we're judging him against - essentially against his own past successes and the resources he's been afforded.
With regards to relative judgement, Pep is held to a stupidly high standard that is impossible to maintain. Examples of even little things like Liverpool won a game 2-1 this season (vs Villa I think) and the narrative was comfortable win for Liverpool, the same weekend City beat Southmapton by the same score with more chances for and less chances given up and the narrative is lucky City, Pep's been found out etc...

Its not a deliberate thing, its this whole narrative around Pep, he has to win everything and he has to beat the weaker teams by cricket scores or its a bad weekend. I can't recall a City game we've won by less than 2 goals vs any non top6 team where the media narrative hasn't been City under performed. Its not a City thing either, its purely people expect him to be some kind of God and he is judged to a higher standard than any other manager in history which is downright stupid.

Pep is another top manager, who'll take his place among the best of all time. Not a God nor a failure.
Holding him to this he must get 100 points every season or he must win the CL is a ridiculous standard that no one manager nor team can maintain.

It's never as simple as "he has x amount of money, he should have won y". If Pep wins the CL this season the argument will change to "but he came 20 points behind Klopp with vastly more resources)." There is no narrative where Pep can leave England better than Klopp because one is seen as has to win every game and every trophy while the other is seen as the plucky underdog pulling off a Rocky story. Were City to win the CL this season and CL and Prem next season, people would still make the argument Klopp has had the better of it. Because they are unfairly judged to very, very different standards. Should Pep be winning more than Klopp? Of course he should. Should he be winning everything like people expect? No.

I'm just using Klopp as an example but you can replace him with any other manager who does well in the premier league. Jose for example never had to deal with the level of expectancy that Pep has despite relatively spending more according to that football inflation model in arguably a weaker league (a weaker league for sure outside the big 4).

All that said if Klopp beats the snot out of him again by 10+ points next season, he'll likely deservedly get the boot.
 

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City became a one-man (KDB) team this season. Most fans expect nothing from Otamendi and Gundogan but Sterling's been terrible since December, Zinchenko whole season, Bernardo's two levels below his 18/19 performances, Fernandinho's a DM ffs... And why exactly City signed Cancelo? Maybe he's a fine wing-back but in back four he's even worse than Danilo.
 

VorZakone

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City became a one-man (KDB) team this season. Most fans expect nothing from Otamendi and Gundogan but Sterling's been terrible since December, Zinchenko whole season, Bernardo's two levels below his 18/19 performances, Fernandinho's a DM ffs... And why exactly City signed Cancelo? Maybe he's a fine wing-back but in back four he's even worse than Danilo.
To be honest, KDB barely played last year and City still won the title. Don't think his absense is the main factor here but rather everyone else in bad form like you've indicated.
 

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Well done Man City - spent billion(s) to dominate League Cups. You should be proud of that right there.
 

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Our midfield is shocking and nothing is gonna change till Pep realizes he's dropped a fecking bollick playing Gundogan and Rodri consistently in the same team. It makes us the most lethargic midfield in the league. Two players who jog around and pass a ball sideways, offering very little to defence and feck all more to attack. Someone needs to pull Pep aside and tell him cop the feck on.
 

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No edge to them this year, the weakest they have been in some time. Even with all their players back they need to rethink that Gundogan/Rodri pairing, too pedestrian.

Jesus is no replacement for Aguero either.
 

_00_deathscar

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I mean all you had to do was beat Chelsea last week
Or Villa in the League Cup etc. Maybe if we could have kept Coutinho AND bought VVD and Alisson, and bought 200m worth of average full backs and 150m worth of shit centre backs (save Laporte) we'd have won the League Cup/FA Cup too...
 

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Or Villa in the League Cup etc. Maybe if we could have kept Coutinho AND bought VVD and Alisson, and bought 200m worth of average full backs and 150m worth of shit centre backs (save Laporte) we'd have won the League Cup/FA Cup too...
Youse needed a super squad to beat Villa, and Chelsea this last week? Gotcha.
 

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Our midfield is shocking and nothing is gonna change till Pep realizes he's dropped a fecking bollick playing Gundogan and Rodri consistently in the same team. It makes us the most lethargic midfield in the league. Two players who jog around and pass a ball sideways, offering very little to defence and feck all more to attack. Someone needs to pull Pep aside and tell him cop the feck on.
Gundogan is a 6 now, he just can't play higher up the pitch anymore. But when you start him deeper you can't pair him with D Silva who has zero energy now. City's midfield is a complete mess this season, simply praying for KDB to do some spectacular.
 

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Gundogan is a 6 now, he just can't play higher up the pitch anymore. But when you start him deeper you can't pair him with D Silva who has zero energy now. City's midfield is a complete mess this season, simply praying for KDB to do some spectacular.
Yup, I find it hilarious Sky Sports etc... blame the defenders and attackers whilst constantly giving our midfield selection a pass. Our defence is slightly weaker at best and our attack pretty much the same. The key difference is simply...
Our first choice midfield of the last 2 seasons - Fernandinho, D Silva, KDB. Our first choice midfield this season - Rodri, Gundogan and KDB. The latter is completely relying on KDB to do all the attacking (and defending). That's a massive drop in quality.
 

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Youse needed a super squad to beat Villa, and Chelsea this last week? Gotcha.
Well those cups are played by sides using their squads now so yes? Its no wonder the club who has been punished for flouting the rules has doninated the cups when squad depth comes into play.
 

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Well done Man City - spent billion(s) to dominate League Cups. You should be proud of that right there.
Have you been in a coma for the four league titles City have won in the past decade? I appreciate last season and that time Gerrard slipped might have been repressed, but the other two times you surely remember?
 

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Yup, I find it hilarious Sky Sports etc... blame the defenders and attackers whilst constantly giving our midfield selection a pass. Our defence is slightly weaker at best and our attack pretty much the same. The key difference is simply...
Our first choice midfield of the last 2 seasons - Fernandinho, D Silva, KDB. Our first choice midfield this season - Rodri, Gundogan and KDB. The latter is completely relying on KDB to do all the attacking (and defending). That's a massive drop in quality.
If your opponent needs 2-3 touches to go through your midfield, if your defenders end up in 1v1 five times every game... You'll concede sooner or later. Honestly Pep doesn't really challenge himself anymore, I think. No personalities or leaders left in the dressing room, didn't try to replace Arteta with someone who'd offer new ideas (I think SAF had NINE different assistants in 27 years), didn't replace that terrible GK coach who worked under two managers with five different goalkeepers during seven years and no one of them improved. Pep's ridiculously stubborn and there's no reason to think he'll change.
 

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He can be 30 points of first and he'd still be the best coach City have ever had imo. If you can't see that then you must be blind.... have poor eyesight. KDB was not this good under previous managers. Sterlings was not this good at Liverpool.

And they miss Sane: /watch?v=WsXxh7FdRYY who is much better than say Luís Figo Sterling and Mahrez... they are good, but Sane is a bit better than them both. As for Jesus, don't think Pep will get rid of him, he always scores important goals. He makes an impact whenever he comes on. If anything City look more dangerous. Game against Leicester and many other games. It is Agüero that should be a subs player.

watch?v=LiO_u8xJNR0 He's playing better than Agüero at the moment.
 
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Pep's Suit

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He can be 30 points of first and he'd still be the best coach City have ever had imo. If you can't see that then you must be blind.... have poor eyesight.
16/17 and 19/20 are worse seasons than 11/12 + 12/13 + 13/14 IMO. At least league performances and consistency.
 

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For a club like City to have a defence like they have is absolutely shocking.

Otamendi, Stones and Zinchenko have absolutely no business being at a club with their ambition... and Mendy and Cancelo are hardly setting the world on fire since there arrival.

They basically have two actual very good defenders in Laporte and Walker, its mad.
 

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Don't want to take anything from United, because the boys put great performances, but that was the worst City at Old Trafford in last ten years or so, probably even more. We were so much better under Fergie in oretty much every year that struggled to play this easily and this good against them. To call them and Liverpool on of the best teams ever in PL is laughable.
 

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For a club like City to have a defence like they have is absolutely shocking.

Otamendi, Stones and Zinchenko have absolutely no business being at a club with their ambition... and Mendy and Cancelo are hardly setting the world on fire since there arrival.

They basically have two actual very good defenders in Laporte and Walker, its mad.
I don't think Pep's using his players properly this season. Cancelo, Mendy, Angelino are wing-backs so why play them in back four and force to move to midfield etc? If anything he should have switched to 3-4-3. Sane's out for 7 months, Sterling's better through the middle anyway, defence wouldn't be constantly exposed by lack of legs in midfield... He's too stubborn to change and too loyal to senior players.
 

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Sane was that influence for them. It was like Untied without Ronaldo.

watch?v=CNhpJ7u9Tzo

watch?v=-sEhjsrqBDg He was world class at 19.
 
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For a club like City to have a defence like they have is absolutely shocking.

Otamendi, Stones and Zinchenko have absolutely no business being at a club with their ambition... and Mendy and Cancelo are hardly setting the world on fire since there arrival.

They basically have two actual very good defenders in Laporte and Walker, its mad.
It happens to the best managers after a period of success. Pep should be able to quickly turn things around and not for too much net spend either. The question is will he have the appetite if they really are banned from CL for two seasons?