Manchester United name John Murtough as Football Director and Darren Fletcher as Technical Director

Adnan

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You said this. Unless this is not written in English, this means you blame David Gill for Woodward's 8 years of shamble.

"If anyone wants to moan about the CEO at the club, then look no further than Woodward's predecessor David Gill, who is to blame for our malaise post Fergie. "


Then you wrote and essay of why appointing from outside is a disaster. Yeh, United appointed an insider, like Ed Woodward, is not a fecking disaster alright.

Laughable.
It was under David Gill's watch that the academy fell years behind out rivals.

It was under David Gill's watch our scouting network and structure became archaic.

It was under David Gill's watch we had no succession plan with a broken football structure that had set us years behind. And it was no surprise he jumped ship the same time Fergie retired because he knew what was coming.

If you want to still carry on placing all the blame on Woodward (who has made mistakes) then more fool you.
 

Adnan

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Maybe we should take away the word blame as its connotation is pretty bad. I am sure nobody here will ever want to have a shot at SAF because of what he did for the club. But being a manager at a club like ours, being the kind of manager SAF has been, he was needed to make an infinite number of decisions and of course not all of them were always right or the best decision in the long run. Nothing malicious about stating that but we lose out on potential to learn from previous lessons if we just wash these "wrong turns" away by stating "...but we were so successful".

To be honest, even back in the day, I thought it was a quite an un-Fergie like action to step down as the manager and doing nothing to prevent David Gill from stepping down at the same time. This was always going to make life for the "new ones" way harder than it would have been, if there was a one or two year delay in between. I mean both of them must have been aware of the inexperience of Woodward (not even starting about Moyes on this level) so in conclusion: I don't blame SAF for it, but there would have been a few things that could have been done to smooth'en the whole transition.

Ed has been rightfully criticised for a few things in here but context is king and you lose out on a valuable lesson if you just end the issue by declaring someone as the scapegoat.



I agree with you on that. How do you know all these things about the state of the academy? Do you have some links to explore?

There is one thing I'd like to add a few points to your statements. You mentioned that the manager choices were met by a mostly happy fanbase and that some negativity today arises from the "hindsight is 20-20" standpoint. I think you are right but this "fanbase being happy with appointments" is a problematic barometer as happiness potentially stems more from something manifesting the end of something dreadful than the outlook of something promising starting.

I mean we have all witnessed Moyes and his struggles, so it felt somewhat good when LVG was announced to take over from him as at least he came with the pedigree of being a top club manager. But even back then LVG was not one of the more sought-after managers. It took Heynckes to finish and polish his job at FC Bayern and I think most of our fans had some comments from Bayern-players in mind, pointing out that LVG laid the foundations for the great Bayern side of 2013/14, that thumped Barcelona in the CL 7:0. It was about laying good foundations at ManUnited with LVG from at least my perspective while he himself seemingly started some sort of Galactico route.

Mourinho himself came also from a rather unfavourable position, having been axed by Chelsea after taking part of very ugly things surrounding that club for while. I guess, the fan happiness was even more connected to LVG really torturing us with his brand of football and his obvious insistence of proving himself to be not-outdated while hampering the club on that egoistic quest.
If I remember correctly even back then I think the most optimistic fans were saying "lets hope Mourinho is serious about this being a long-term commitment and hopefully at least he could bring some level of success back to stabilize the club and make progress on the transition". I think, the majority was aware that stylistically, Mourinho players and LVG players are quite different. And I think the majority was very aware of Mourinho being a potential risk as we have seen him creating deep issues within the squad and club on at least two instances (Chelsea and Real).

All in all, I think "fans were happy back then" isn't a good barometer for evaluating the job of the one person responsible for appointing the manager.
I agree, fan opinion is never a good barometer to measure things, but in the context of how the discussion evolved in this thread, it was brought up, but it's not important in the grand of scheme things.

Regarding the managerial appointments post Fergie, I was for the appointment of LVG and against the other two (Mourinho, Moyes) due to footballing reasons, believe it or not. Van Gaal's Ajax team had a profound affect on me growing up, in the way they played the game and how he was ahead of the game when it came to coaching at the time . Without going into too much detail, he coached his team straight from the Rinus Michels play book but turbo charged the same (Michels) approach to create a team made up of teenagers and experience alike, that would go on to win the European Cup playing a brand of football that was mind boggling due to how they were coached in overloading offensive zones but without losing defensive structure. So they'd go away to teams like Real Madrid and pin them in their own half and comfortably win the game. And he did that by coaching his players to adopt the total football mantra of Michels, where interchangeability/positional play was key and it helped cause confusion in opposition ranks which enabled Ajax to unhinge opposition defensive lines without sacrificing their defensive structure. But what he did, that not a lot of people know at the time was to bring in the best data analysts, sports scientists, nutritionists to the club which added to his existing staff that created the structure that would provide him with the platform to elevate his Ajax team from the best in the Eredivisie to the best in Europe. And below I'll give my take on why I feel he failed, along with the two managers post Fergie at our club.

Our owners are incompetent and I've been saying that on here for several years now. So let me get that out of the way before I proceed.

After Fergie retired and David Gill jumped ship with him, the football structure was broken and I've provided details in my previous posts as to why I came to that conclusion. Ed Woodward who had no experience in such a role was thrust into the role of the CEO of the club with a manager he inherited who was also 'green' at such a huge club with a demanding fan base. So this was always gonna end bad, especially for David Moyes who asked the club to give him access to the player database, which never existed, and he was told everything was in Jim Lawlor's head, who was our only fulltime scout after Fergie's brother, Martin Ferguson also retired, which was a reduction from the two full time scouts under Fergie.

So our issues stem from having a non existent succession plan. And then putting people into positions who had very little to no experience in their respective roles with a broken football structure. So Woodward ended up giving control to managers for far too long which had other knock on effects which we're seeing to this day. And that's down to his naivety which I've mentioned in prior years, which caused instability at the club.

But I'm crediting Woodward for putting in place mechanisms at the club which has seen a ten fold improvement in our academy compared to what he inherited. And also the complete revamp of our footballing structure which has taken years to complete after John Murtough was appointed in November 2013. It might take a new Head Coach to come in to take us back to the top. But as things stand, things are looking very positive regarding the mid to longterm future IMO.

And this is to those people who say that the key roles have been filled by mates of Woodward and Solskjaer. Bayern have done the same, Dortmund have done the same and even hired ex player Sebastian Kehl to work alongside Michael Zorc after Kehl had returned from his back-packing adventures. Rangnick also works with his mates and so does Luis Campos.
 

croadyman

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I'm begging to suspect @Adnan may be Woodward.
Surely an external DOF would not have been a unimitigated disaster that some in our fanbase feel was going to happen, surely it would have meant some fresh ideas on recruitment but there was clearly too much fear of change on our board for that to ever become a reality.
 

Adnan

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Surely an external DOF would not have been a unimitigated disaster that some in our fanbase feel was going to happen, surely it would have meant some fresh ideas on recruitment but there was clearly too much fear of change on our board for that to ever become a reality.
Did anyone say that would be the case?

Also can you please describe what you expect of someone in the role of the DoF?
 

croadyman

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Did anyone say that would be the case?

Also can you please describe what you expect of someone in the role of the DoF?
Well firstly someone who is in charge of contracts for existing players that doesn't dish out long term deals on far too much money to the likes of Jones, Matic & DDG, secondly someone who is responsible for negotiating with agents of prospective players and is able to sort out reasonable prices rather than being taken for a ride. Thirdly someone who also communicates with people responsible for the academy and youth team which I will grant you Murtough looks to have done
 

Yakuza_devils

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David Moyes was hired without his say so, which is well documented. He inherited David Moyes. Let's get that out of the way first.

He hired LVG and I for one was happy with the appointment, so no complaints from me.

He hired Mourinho when most of the fans, media and pundits said it was a good appointment. It's very easy to point fingers with the benefit of hindsight. He gave both Van Gaal and Mourinho total control for far too long, which was a mistake which I've criticised him for. But he backed both managers heavily including the current manager Solskjaer. Bayern Munich and Real Madrid have appointed managers/head coaches with differing philosophical approaches and some have done well, whilst others were sacked. It all boils down to what those clubs had in the back ground in the form of having a footballing structure which has been in place for many many years. Our structure was out of date thanks to the incompetence of David Gill, which I will explain below, and it was Woodward who inherited the malaise along with David Moyes who was the chosen one.

David Gill allowed our academy to rot for years, where we fell a long way behind our rivals. Our scouting network, player data base, sports science, aspect of recruitment was either non existent or archaic according to the Manchester press pack. It's a not a surprise David Gill jumped ship along with Fergie, because he knew what was coming due to the mess he had created by neglecting the life blood of the club (The Academy) including what I mentioned earlier.

Woodward has helped improve the academy ten fold compared to what he inherited. He put in place people who have created a structure which has taken years to come into fruition, and has finally put us on a par with the leading clubs in Europe in that regard.

And regarding player contracts, you wouldn't care if Jones was getting 500k a week, if we were winning titles. So for me it's about having a streamlined approach to recruitment. And if the approach is streamlined, then I fully believe our recruitment will improve because everyone will be working in unison towards a common goal which would also provide stability and continuity.
This is exactly our main problem before and after SAF retire. We have an accountant running the world biggest football club. He is learning on the job which should never be allowed to.

There was no succession plan, no proper scouting network, broken youth system, no identity in style of football, wasted hundreds of millions in player signings, appointed wrong manager after wrong manager, the list can goes on and on.

At least now he is setting up system on the footballing side of the club (that's like 8 years too late). Even that I still think appointing DOF within the club could be another mistakes. I could understand if our football side is already one of the best in the world right now and it's safe to appoint within just like Bayern Munich. But as of now, even Leicester could put us to shame with better recruitment system and playing style.

We need better DOF to improve player signing and most importantly playing more attractive modern football with dominance possession play which the world biggest football club should be playing.

Ole has improve us no doubt. But our style of play and player recruitment are still left much to be desired.
 

Adnan

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Well firstly someone who is in charge of contracts for existing players that doesn't dish out long term deals on far too much money to the likes of Jones, Matic & DDG, secondly someone who is responsible for negotiating with agents of prospective players and is able to sort out reasonable prices rather than being taken for a ride. Thirdly someone who also communicates with people responsible for the academy and youth team which I will grant you Murtough looks to have done
Don't you think all that can be done via a internal appointment?

Your second point about negotiating deals for players for reasonable prices can also be easily accomplished but we'd have to stop targeting players like Sancho, Grealish, Kounde etc and adopt a strategy whereby we look to sign a Sadio Mane rather than a Angel Di Maria or a Moussa Diabi rather than a Jadon Sancho from BVB. I think we might have done that already though by signing Amad Diallo.
 

croadyman

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Don't you think all that can be done via a internal appointment?

Your second point about negotiating deals for players for reasonable prices can also be easily accomplished but we'd have to stop targeting players like Sancho, Grealish, Kounde etc and adopt a strategy whereby we look to sign a Sadio Mane rather than a Angel Di Maria or a Moussa Diabi rather than a Jadon Sancho from BVB. I think we might have done that already though by signing Amad Diallo.
Maybe but would have just preferred it if we appointed someone who had some previous experience of working at a european club which is the main reason I wanted to get Mitchell, he found Mane for Southampton and also Alli for Spurs as well along with doing a similar thing whilst at RB Leipzig too. Personally I would feel much better about these two doing the role if Woody's uni sidekick wasn't still directly involved in the negotiation side of things as his track record is shocking.
 

Adnan

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Maybe but would have just preferred it if we appointed someone who had some previous experience of working at a european club which is the main reason I wanted to get Mitchell, he found Mane for Southampton and also Alli for Spurs as well along with doing a similar thing whilst at RB Leipzig too. Personally I would feel much better about these two doing the role if Woody's uni sidekick wasn't still directly involved in the negotiation side of things as his track record is shocking.
The following are the players Paul Mitchell signed at RB Leipzig in 2018 when he was first appointed in a scouting capacity. Nordi Mukiele, Matheus Cunha, Amadou Haidara, Tyler Adams and Marcelo Saracchi.

And then a year later he was credited with the signings of the following players. Christopher Nkunku, Ademola Lookman, Patrik Schick, Ethan Ampadu and Hannes Wolf.

Mitchell was then moved into a slightly altered position at the club where he was appointed the Techincal director at one of the RedBull feeder clubs, before he joined Monaco as the Sporting Director.
 

Isotope

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It was under David Gill's watch that the academy fell years behind out rivals.

It was under David Gill's watch our scouting network and structure became archaic.

It was under David Gill's watch we had no succession plan with a broken football structure that had set us years behind. And it was no surprise he jumped ship the same time Fergie retired because he knew what was coming.

If you want to still carry on placing all the blame on Woodward (who has made mistakes) then more fool you.
- Academy fells years behind, as opposed to the last 8 years under Ed? Speculation
- Scouting network archaic, as opposed to the last 8 years under Ed? Players that were bought before and after his regime prove otherwise. Facts.
- No succession plan (did he know Fergie would retire suddenly? otherwise how do you plan on that), as opposed to the last 8 years under Ed? :lol:

So this shambles on the last 8 years is not on Ed?? Like other said, Gill might be to blame on the first year or so. But when Ed took 8 years to appoint a DOF, and you saying this:
"then look no further than Woodward's predecessor David Gill, who is to blame for our malaise post Fergie. "

And you still blame the guy that left 8 fecking years ago.

Gills only fault, and a major one that is, was he couldn't get more sponsors money for United. Thus severely limiting Fergie's spending. Ed is twice better than Gill on this aspect.
 
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Adnan

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- Academy fells years behind, as opposed to the last 8 years under Ed? Speculation
- Scouting network archaic, as opposed to the last 8 years under Ed? Players that were bought before and after his regime prove otherwise. Facts.
- No succession plan (did he know Fergie would retire suddenly? otherwise how do you plan on that), as opposed to the last 8 years under Ed? :lol:

So this shambles on the last 8 years is not on Ed?? Like other said, Gill might be to blame on the first year or so. But when Ed took 8 years to appoint a DOF, and you saying this:
"then look no further than Woodward's predecessor David Gill, who is to blame for our malaise post Fergie. "

And you still blame the guy that left 8 fecking years ago.

Gills only fault, and a major one that is, was he couldn't get more sponsors money for United. Thus severely limiting Fergie's spending. Ed is twice better than Gill on this aspect.
I've already answered everything you've brought up in this post.

Yes the scouting network was archaic when Woodward replaced Gill. That has been mentioned in reports by journos who cover United. And currently we have a scouting network/ structure and the results can be seen if one watched our youth teams with the amount of talent we have coming through. I've also explained why the same hasn't happened at first team yet but you've completely ignored my previous posts.

I never said Woodward never made mistakes and have gone into quite a bit of detail as to why I throw a lot of the blame at David Gill and have explained why in my previous posts. And it's got feck all to do with Gill not bringing in sponsorship money because Woodward has been running our commercial department since 2007, so your criticism of Gill in that regard is misplaced.
 

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Wonder if Nicky Butt’s departure would suggest he saw himself as a better (or more deserving) candidate for either newly created role.
 

SuperiorXI

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Shows the state of affairs at our club when 2 inexperienced candidates get such important roles. On top of that the manager is also inexperienced and learning on the job.
 

izec

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Wonder if Nicky Butt’s departure would suggest he saw himself as a better (or more deserving) candidate for either newly created role.
Think his role was mainly what Fletcher is doing now, just a bit other things added and a different name. So more like he got replaced.
 

Foxbatt

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It's also in the papers that this John guy was the one who fecked up the Haaland transfer from Molde initially.
 

#07

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It's also in the papers that this John guy was the one who fecked up the Haaland transfer from Molde initially.
Where's that running? Pretty big if there's truth to it.
 

Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær

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It's also in the papers that this John guy was the one who fecked up the Haaland transfer from Molde initially.
Post links if you're going to make these claims:

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/foo...rling-Haaland-transfer-news-John-Murtough-SNT

I doubt that Murtough was the guy booking the meeting and screwing up the time difference. The last part especially being a two way street with some blame falling on Solbakken surely. If you have confusion about a meeting time you follow up with the organizer.
 

kerrygold

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- Academy fells years behind, as opposed to the last 8 years under Ed? Speculation
- Scouting network archaic, as opposed to the last 8 years under Ed? Players that were bought before and after his regime prove otherwise. Facts.
- No succession plan (did he know Fergie would retire suddenly? otherwise how do you plan on that), as opposed to the last 8 years under Ed? :lol:

So this shambles on the last 8 years is not on Ed?? Like other said, Gill might be to blame on the first year or so. But when Ed took 8 years to appoint a DOF, and you saying this:
"then look no further than Woodward's predecessor David Gill, who is to blame for our malaise post Fergie. "

And you still blame the guy that left 8 fecking years ago.

Gills only fault, and a major one that is, was he couldn't get more sponsors money for United. Thus severely limiting Fergie's spending. Ed is twice better than Gill on this aspect.
Amen brother. How anyone can defend Ed is laughable.
 

Foxbatt

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Post links if you're going to make these claims:

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/foo...rling-Haaland-transfer-news-John-Murtough-SNT

I doubt that Murtough was the guy booking the meeting and screwing up the time difference. The last part especially being a two way street with some blame falling on Solbakken surely. If you have confusion about a meeting time you follow up with the organizer.
it was in the Mirror.

In August 2018, Molde were expecting a call at 9am from the Manchester club to finalise a £3m deal. However, as England was an hour ahead, Murtough mistakenly made the call at 10am. In the meantime, the Norwegian side agreed a deal with RB Salzburg instead.
 

Nevilles.Wear.Prada

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it was in the Mirror.

In August 2018, Molde were expecting a call at 9am from the Manchester club to finalise a £3m deal. However, as England was an hour ahead, Murtough mistakenly made the call at 10am. In the meantime, the Norwegian side agreed a deal with RB Salzburg instead.
Could happen to anybody. Sad, but understandable.
 

KM

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Are people so thick to believe this utter nonsense above?

Haaland has already shown an inclination towards playing regular football and it was a factor in him moving to Dortmund from Salzburg, it made perfect sense for him to reject us and go to Salzburg for getting regular game time.
 

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it was in the Mirror.

In August 2018, Molde were expecting a call at 9am from the Manchester club to finalise a £3m deal. However, as England was an hour ahead, Murtough mistakenly made the call at 10am. In the meantime, the Norwegian side agreed a deal with RB Salzburg instead.
Molde wouldn't do that anyway
 

Hansi Fick

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it was in the Mirror.

In August 2018, Molde were expecting a call at 9am from the Manchester club to finalise a £3m deal. However, as England was an hour ahead, Murtough mistakenly made the call at 10am. In the meantime, the Norwegian side agreed a deal with RB Salzburg instead.
Surely you don't actually believe this?
 

Matriac

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It was a claim made by a scout called Bryan King who works or worked at Everton.

Of course people believe it, it's another stick to beat the club with.
It wasn't even Brian King who claimed it. He said in an article that he suggested to Everton to sign Haaland, that the club talked to the player but talks died out (probably cause he wanted to go elsewhere).
But the journo stuck that bit inbetween the rumor that Murtough screwed up the call so people thought the scout had said it.

Haaland's agent at the time was the same as Ole's today (and since ages ago). If this was an actual issue they could easily get in touch with Ole to talk to anyone at United about it.

I ranted more about this in the Haaland thread:
This reads like complete BS.

First of all, scheduling errors like this does happen somewhat frequently in business, but it's rarely a big issue unless it keeps happening with the same people.

If you as a player have decided that you are keen to sign for United, you don't change your mind in under an hour going from first the surprise that United's contact didn't show up to then make the decision to instead want to move your life to Switzerland, set up an impromptu call to that club and sign a deal within the hour, even if those terms were pre-negotiated at the same time as with United.
Especially not when your manager in Molde was Solskjær, who can pick up the phone and reach anyone in United to check why they didn't show up to the scheduled meeting.
His agent at the time (Solbakken) is also Ole's agent, and your father (Alfie) is a mate of Ole. I'm not sure when the deal with RB Salzburg was signed, but it officially went through on January 1st 2019, and Ole moved from Molde to United just a few weeks earlier.

You can be a bit annoyed that they didn't show up on time, and give them a hard time about it. But you don't make such a big career/life decision over it in such a short time.
Not to mention that it's also your agents job, as much as United's, to make sure that both parties have confirmed the meeting time with timezone specified, usually with a calendar invite.


It just reads as a joke rumor some ITK troll posted on a forum somewhere and journos decided to run with it since it reads as a crazy thing that people will read, react and link others to.
Nowhere in the article does it say that the Everton scout Brian King told them this story, only that he recommended to Everton to sign Haaland, that they spoke to the player but the deal went cold (they probably realized he wanted to go elsewhere).
 

Adnan

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It wasn't even Brian King who claimed it. He said in an article that he suggested to Everton to sign Haaland, that the club talked to the player but talks died out (probably cause he wanted to go elsewhere).
But the journo stuck that bit inbetween the rumor that Murtough screwed up the call so people thought the scout had said it.

Haaland's agent at the time was the same as Ole's today (and since ages ago). If this was an actual issue they could easily get in touch with Ole to talk to anyone at United about it.

I ranted more about this in the Haaland thread:
I completely agree with you mate. And welldone for the superb post which provides good detail.
 

Matriac

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I completely agree with you mate. And welldone for the superb post which provides good detail.
Ya I wasn't targeting you specifically as it's clear you don't believe the BS either. Just picked yours to quote since it included the bit about the Everton scout having said this, which isn't even true.

And even if it was true that Brian King had said it, how would he have known? Did Murtough or Haaland's team tell him about it? Why would they? If he had said it to the journo he would have just heard it as a urban legend rumor like a lot of the others on here who believes everything they read.
 

Inigo Montoya

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He's technical director
We need a director of technical football. Who does that at the club? You know, someone who could direct 2 or 3 players to pass the ball 5 metres to another Utd player without fecking up
 

Adnan

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Ya I wasn't targeting you specifically as it's clear you don't believe the BS either. Just picked yours to quote since it included the bit about the Everton scout having said this, which isn't even true.

And even if it was true that Brian King had said it, how would he have known? Did Murtough or Haaland's team tell him about it? Why would they? If he had said it to the journo he would have just heard it as a urban legend rumor like a lot of the others on here who believes everything they read.
I'm glad you corrected me mate, because I didn't pay too much attention to the news in question.

There's things we can genuinely criticise the club for. But from my understanding of what's happening on the forum at present, is that there's a certain section of the fan base who are so 'Ole Out' that no matter what the club does with him as manager, they will paint everything in a negative light.

Solskjaer may or may not, be the man for the job. But I'm fully behind him as manager and wish him all the success at the club.
 

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