Gonads to move the deadwood on haha!
Not like Ole hasn’t shifted most of the deadwood since he’s been here eh?
Not like Ole hasn’t shifted most of the deadwood since he’s been here eh?
Manchester United name John Murtough as Football Director and Darren Fletcher as Technical Director
- Thread starter Tom Van Persie
- Start date
Man City have a financial superiority in the EPL like no other club ever in the history of the the English top flight. So people need to temper their expectations and hope we build a team that will eventually challenge. We can't compete with the finances of Mansour at City as things stand so we have no choice but to be patient.
Someone also mentioned Bayern and their expectations. It's true they have high expectations but they also have a financial superiority over every team in their domestic league which makes them the go to destination for most players in the league. Can you imagine if they had to content with Mansour and Abramovich? If that was the case, then they'd have to temper their expectations too.
Someone also mentioned Bayern and their expectations. It's true they have high expectations but they also have a financial superiority over every team in their domestic league which makes them the go to destination for most players in the league. Can you imagine if they had to content with Mansour and Abramovich? If that was the case, then they'd have to temper their expectations too.
City's financial superiority is undeniable but there is no reason why we can't have a side that's regularly in the mix for trophies while playing good football week in, week out. We are nowhere the level of consistency needed to make that next step but hopefully some decent acquisitions in the summer will go some way to solving that, we are far too reactive as a side right now and cannot keep possession with the kind of regularity needed to dominate most opponents.
I agree, and that's what I want to see, but that comes down to the coaching at first team level. And the job of the head coach/manager is the most difficult job on the football side of the club. So I can see why people would have concerns regarding our current manager when it comes down to playing a proactive brand of football.
Absolutely concur. Ole has provided some light at the end of the tunnel but there are still serious questions about whether or not we are equipped to continue improving or have just reached a plateau and this is as good as it gets under the current set-up. Bringing in Sancho won't resolve the issue of why our central defenders and Fred/ McT keep conceding possession or why our players jog about with the ball casually. There are so many backwards and sideways passes these days, I guess that's down to fear of losing the ball but it just gives opponents time to regroup and deal with attacks easily. The Europa League final being a case in point.
The other clubs outside of City are hardly paupers, though. We have actually outspent City (and every other club) in terms of net in the last three seasons.
Management is more important. Liverpool challenged City within one point in 18/19, and beat them to the title in 19/20 with far less expenditure in comparison (still a considerable sum, though, in football). With the amounts of money these clubs spend, finances are not City's main advantage. In fact, I think there are many things that come ahead of it.
The main advantages City have are Guardiola, the transfer committee, and the possibly the coaches.. They weren't as dominant before him, and I doubt they will be once he has gone. I think expectations for me are to sustain challenges season upon season, and actually win the Premier League. I don't think their financial strength affects that view.
City didn't need to outspend us in the last 3 seasons because they'd done the bulk of their spending prior to the last 3 seasons. They'd also left us in their wake when it came to having a scouting network and recruitment structure which we've only recently matched after falling way behind after Fergie retired and we were left with only one fulltime scout and a non existent data science department.
Yes you're right the other clubs are hardly paupers and Liverpool did show under Jurgen Klopp that they could more than match City in the season they won the league. But to beat City they went on a amazing run that accumulated a points tally that no other club apart from City has surpassed. It was a ridiculously great run which was masterminded by their head coach Klopp and their DoF Michael Edwards. And I agree we can take heart from that and also take chunks out of City's dominance like Liverpool have.
The main advantage City have is their owner. Without him they'd be nowhere near the biggest prizes in the game.
I’d say matic 5, lingard 25, Dalot 15, pereira 10, Chong 5, Williams 10, mata free. Conservatively priced, that’s 70 million in fees and a half million at least a week off the wage bill. I’d imagine that would give you some much needed extra wiggle room with recruitment.
It’s only consistency that’s holding us back. We’re capable of beating anyone when we’re playing well, the problem is we haven’t played well often enough and particularly so against teams that shut up shop and set out to frustrate us. Good, dependable players buys you consistency and make the difference in those kind of games.
Our success as a football club has always been based on a strategy of integrating youth with proven quality, so I’m glad we’ve returned to that. If we can get the recruitment right this summer, there’s no reason why we can’t mount a serious challenge now and in the future.
Eight days from retirement.
What’s the thoughts concerning that the negotiators know the release fee being asked by a club where we seek to sign the player, and we constantly low ball and are then on the back foot trying to complete the transfer. The selling club gets the irrits and on obviously feel insulted and we seem to think this is a sensible tactic.
Not sure entirely living on the other side of the world, but when Chelsea/Citeh have a player in their sights, it seems they are prepared to pay the release and get the player in . At the end of the day, even allowing for oil oligarchs, we should be able pay the £5/10million needed at the outset, surely our revenues can afford it. Maybe the cash is needed for dividends and loan repayments
Not sure entirely living on the other side of the world, but when Chelsea/Citeh have a player in their sights, it seems they are prepared to pay the release and get the player in . At the end of the day, even allowing for oil oligarchs, we should be able pay the £5/10million needed at the outset, surely our revenues can afford it. Maybe the cash is needed for dividends and loan repayments
They really don't for the most part. It's just you're following United storylines more so you see the "bid rejected" shit. City literally had what happened to us last season to Sancho when they were signing Alexis. Pretty sure Mahrez was a long saga too? Either way unless we have government money I'd rather see the club try to haggle like any other club does. Notice when we sell players it's the same from the teams buying?
Liverpool have bucked the trend though, so it shows with the right coaching, players and application it can be done.
…and by absolutely smashing your transfer records.
I agree. Especially when this happened last seaaon as well. We should have learned in this situation at least, Dortmund wont accept anything less than they have set as acceptable. Its not as if hes in the last seeason of his contract, where a slightly lower bid might do it.
We hvent done this in the past?
He keeps getting promotions at United despite being in a football structure who constantly fail to deliver. Like in any job a person doesn't need to be previously linked with company to become the owners/ CEO's Lap dog
That's a bit difficult to happen considering that he was part of the shit from nearly the beginning
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I agree mate, and now that we have a recruitment structure it might further help the cause.
Liverpool broke the world record for a GK and the world record for a defender.
takes massive resources to overhaul city.
Everyone negotiations for the best possible deal for themselves. Marina Granovskaia at Chelsea is know for being really tough. The City guys are Barcelona and experienced negotiators.
The release fee only ever gets paid for a player in spain normally because they have to have them in the contract by spainish law and if the club you want to buy from don't want to sell.
Utd should negotiate hard and get the best possible deal for the club, if they try everyhing they can and the selling club are still being obstinate then move onto another target.
Luke Shaw: worlds most expensive teenager (at the time)
Harry Maquire: worlds most expensive defender
AWB: second most expensive RB in the PL
Pogba: worlds most expensive player (at the time)
Martial: worlds most expensive teenager.
De Gea: worlds best payed GK
Yeah, we would never do what Liverpool did to win titles.
We've broken a lot of world record deals ourselves. More than Liverpool. Where's our titles?
John Murtough was brought to the club by David Moyes to revamp the whole structure when it comes to recruitment and data. And Murtough has been a success in creating a structure that has over a 100 people working within it, which came to fruition in 2017. So for anyone to place blame on Murtough for the poor recruitment by LVG or Mourinho is either misinformed or a moron.
Moyes was also not my choice to be manager, but one thing that is well documented about him is his understanding of the modern footballing structure and data science aspects at football clubs, which was pretty much non existent at United when Fergie retired and should've come as a big shock to anyone with a basic understanding of how things work in the back ground. So when Moyes was tasked with bringing in someone to revamp a outdated structure, he chose John Murtough 'on merit', because Murtough has a track record of being succesful on a national level, hence was employed by the Premier League and described by his peers as being a innovator in his field.
Moyes was also not my choice to be manager, but one thing that is well documented about him is his understanding of the modern footballing structure and data science aspects at football clubs, which was pretty much non existent at United when Fergie retired and should've come as a big shock to anyone with a basic understanding of how things work in the back ground. So when Moyes was tasked with bringing in someone to revamp a outdated structure, he chose John Murtough 'on merit', because Murtough has a track record of being succesful on a national level, hence was employed by the Premier League and described by his peers as being a innovator in his field.
strange post.
Clearly there’s a correlation with spending money and winning titles. Look back at what fergie did. Look at what happened when were were breaking transfer records every couple of years.
It obviously doesn’t mean spend £x = win the league.
Should've hired Riggs instead.
The difference was that Liverpool had a recruitment/data science department already in motion thanks to the late Gerard Houllier who had modernised the club in that regard. That helped the likes of Michael Edwards in evolving things further which really helped them identify talent using a pre-determined method that involved both the scouting and data science departments which is well documented. This is something we never had at the club when Fergie retired, hence we were always gonna be exposed when he retired.
You still need a top class head coach to make it come together and in Jurgen Klopp they had got that top class head coach. And when they sold Coutinho to Barca for £140m, that basically helped them a great deal in redistributing the money elsewhere. And this was after many Liverpool fans wanted Michael Edwards out.
Why's it strange? You're saying Liverpool are pushing City because they broke records signing VVD and Alison. We've broken more records than them but are (in my opinion) nowhere near pushing for the PL/CL.
The obvious difference is the setup between the 3 clubs. From scouts right up to management we're not even close. We spend world record amounts and it gets us a couple of extra points each season which is nowhere near sustainable. Only last season we spent a world record fee on a defender while City spent £16m less on Dias and without meaning to knock Maquire because I do rate him I'm saying that City got the better deal. Throwing money at a problem isn't effective if we don't have the right setup to make us title contenders. Our coaching setup is nowhere near good enough to get the absolute maximum out of players the way City and Liverpool do which means we need to sign players like Kane, Sancho or Ndidi to make us competitive. The problems facing us are pretty obvious if people want to open their eyes.
I am aware that there are people with different views to mine and I respect that. However here is my 2c on the matter. In my opinion, United's biggest issue is that the key football roles are still being chosen by accountants. Which really makes me wonder why I should trust Woodward to get this one right considering that he's been messing around in the past 7 years? I also believe that you only hire within when you've got a fully functioning system that had been providing results. United had been a mess in the pass 7 years and Jon Murtough has been part of it from nearly the beginning.
Honestly I'd love to be proven wrong on this as I only wish the best for my club. However while I do acknowledge that its still early days I can't see a lot of positive change going on.
A- last summer's signings were shambles. Our biggest summer signing barely ever plays, the team was screaming for a top RW only for our club to bring in two kids who barely ever get game time.
B- we still insist in giving contract extension to players who shouldn't be here in the first place (Bailly had signed and according to media rumours we're in talks with Mata and Grant)
C- Murtough had been credited for the women's team success only for Casey Stoney to walk out because of issues at the club
D- We still look slow on the market both in terms of ins and outs.
Utd have spent loads under Ole including world record for a defender included.
Leicester did it before them not only with cheaper players but also playing 442
Generally I do agree with what you're saying but your last paragraph is fundamental in putting it all together. A club can have everything in place but if they don't have the personal to implement it on the pitch it all comes to nothing.
In my opinion we don't have that. To make it work we need a team to get 110% out of every player or else the only way to win the odd trophy or 2 would be to continue breaking records signing players. Of course no manager/coaching staff is guaranteed success but that doesn't mean we should stop looking.
Shoulda hired Moutough and giggs
I agree with you mate. The likes of City, Leicester and Liverpool etc had left us in their wake when it came to their recruitment structure and data science departments. But the role of the head coach is the most important role on the football side when it comes to bringing it all together, and getting that side wrong will hinder us without a pre-determined coaching concept.
and?
it’s not just about spending money. It’s the current squad, academy players, luck, culture, management - getting the right transfers.
but my point is clear - there’s a correlation between those that spend the most and winning titles. That’s obvious. What is doesn’t mean is you are entitled to win trophies if you spend money.
i think we are making the same point.
In the spirit of the thread…
“I’m too old for this shit!”
I agree. I was answering the post saying Liverpool had spent a lot including world record fee for a defender
we have paid the three highest transfer fees in premier league history
the resources are not the issue
We are adding sporadic world class transfer fees/targets to a mixture of youth which still may or may not be of the requisite standard and older squad players who’ve basically peaked already and who were never good enough to win us a league in the first place. Thus always keeping our costs among the highest around but without seeing any major improvement on the pitch.
The key is the owners not wanting to clear the decks instead of wringing every drop of supposed value out of old players and youth prospects and saving on transfer fees for better players unless it’s a last option. They also rarely push to sell players that are happy to never play so they can just keep signing them up. They can then tell fans we have the highest wage bill and net spend. If we regularly sold underperforming and unused players we’d have a much lower net spend and wage bill and much more room in the squad for fresh blood.
Everything is pointless if you’re building on a poor foundation. I’m not saying we aren’t improving. It seems like we are but we've certainly been going the long/hard/wasteful way about it.
The key is the owners not wanting to clear the decks instead of wringing every drop of supposed value out of old players and youth prospects and saving on transfer fees for better players unless it’s a last option. They also rarely push to sell players that are happy to never play so they can just keep signing them up. They can then tell fans we have the highest wage bill and net spend. If we regularly sold underperforming and unused players we’d have a much lower net spend and wage bill and much more room in the squad for fresh blood.
Everything is pointless if you’re building on a poor foundation. I’m not saying we aren’t improving. It seems like we are but we've certainly been going the long/hard/wasteful way about it.
Not sure of it is true or not but some news is saying that United confused the Trippier contract issue at Athletico. United thought it was one year left while in reality it is two years. If this is true then it is incompetency of the highest order.