[OmarUnited4ever]

Still not seeing it with him. Our mid table to bottom of the table rivals have players just as effective or better.

Pretty anonymous today. Had one shot that was saved, but I can't remember him being mentioned in the commentary apart from that.

Unfair, he is doing his job very well, we have terrible front line and not much he can do there, he breaks up play passes it well, he is the best out of shitty bunch

 

[Bobski]

I think he needs a pure DM with a passing range behind him so he can go and hunt the ball. A bit like Fred, but he wouldn't have the extra bits that Fred could sometimes bring out going forward.

He is very good at what he does, but it a skillset that can be difficult to find ideal partners for to get the most out of.

 

[Wezzaldo]

Don’t understand what people think he’s going to do. It’s like they expect him to be dribbling, creating, pass master who slams in 20 yarders.

He did his role extremely well today. Was our only stand out player.

 

[Poborsky's hair]

After a positive start he seems to be less dominant in midfield. Is it because he's lacking a partner in midfiekd and overall the team is less compact or instructions? I have seen Fred playing alone in midfield for a few years so Ugarte needs to step up.

 

[SubutaiScipio]

Good at one thing only. His inability to progress the ball consistently will always be an issue. He needs a Pirlo or Scholes next to him for it to make sense.

 

[Amar__]

His touch can be very inconsistent which is his biggest problem. Hopefully it can improve with more confidence next year, but he is equally inconsistent so far as Fred. Not exactly the same player, but his inconsistency reminds me much of him.

It's also really weird that few posters above mentioned Fred and I came into this thread to compare him with Fred.

 

[Bobski]

I think there is also a difference between being an elite ball winner and an elite DM. He is beyond question the first but the second tends to be more positioning and reading than ball chasing.

None of this is helped by there not being a natural CM pairing at the club. A younger Cas and Ugarte might be it, but if you had a younger Cas you wouldn't need Uagrte.

 

[ThanksBoss26]

I’m not as convinced as others I have to say. His best games have come in big away games but at home, much like the team, I think he’s struggled.

 

[Squeaky_Bum_Time]

I’m not as convinced as others I have to say. His best games have come in big away games but at home, much like the team, I think he’s struggled.

There is an easy explanation which was very evident today. He’s better off the ball than on it. Today was an extreme example, commentator was praising how he’s everywhere and taking the ball off their players, which was true, but he was so sloppy in possession (tbf, like many others). I wanted him off at half time.

 

[Adnan]

Good at one thing only. His inability to progress the ball consistently will always be an issue. He needs a Pirlo or Scholes next to him for it to make sense.

Agreed. We lost the game in midfield today where Palace's running power/physicality completely exposed our central half spaces. Our deeper midfield can't be counted on to progress the ball and neither do they have the legs to contain big physical pacy players in space. Mateta for Palace was too much for our midfield.

Playing Bruno deeper for ball progression purposes should be a temporary measure and we should be aiming to sign at least one midfielder with a well rounded game both in-possession and out of possession. Ugarte has his uses but is too limited on the ball which puts extra pressure on the backline to progress the ball. I've been saying for a long time now and the biggest issue for this team is the midfield and it must be rectified in the summer.

 

[criticalanalysis]

His worst game for us imo. Constantly chasing the ball and getting square/not getting goal side, inconsistent touch, positionally off and the few times he got on the ball, he was poor.

Wasn't helped by a non-existent midfield but individually he wasn't up to standard.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

Don’t understand what people think he’s going to do. It’s like they expect him to be dribbling, creating, pass master who slams in 20 yarders.

He did his role extremely well today. Was our only stand out player.

That’s cause most of the cafe are just down right negative now and looking to critise any new player given the chance.

He’s doing his job, others aren’t.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

Good at one thing only. His inability to progress the ball consistently will always be an issue. He needs a Pirlo or Scholes next to him for it to make sense.

So why is that a negative of his? Surely it’s a negative of the club, team, manager.

It’s like expecting a striker to create every chance for him or a full back to be a constant attacking threat.

 

[NZT-One]

Agreed. We lost the game in midfield today where Palace's running power/physicality completely exposed our central half spaces. Our deeper midfield can't be counted on to progress the ball and neither do they have the legs to contain big physical pacy players in space. Mateta for Palace was too much for our midfield.

Playing Bruno deeper for ball progression purposes should be a temporary measure and we should be aiming to sign at least one midfielder with a well rounded game both in-possession and out of possession. Ugarte has his uses but is too limited on the ball which puts extra pressure on the backline to progress the ball. I've been saying for a long time now and the biggest issue for this team is the midfield and it must be rectified in the summer.

Fully agree. I'd add that this player has to be starting-eleven-Top-5-PL-level who is in his physical peak. And for me personally, that new midfielder will take Brunos spot from today to form a solid, combatitive base. I am happy to push Bruno forward then with the licence to fall back into midfield to help with handling the ball but the days of light weight AMs in the heart of our team simply have to end.

 

[NZT-One]

Good at one thing only. His inability to progress the ball consistently will always be an issue. He needs a Pirlo or Scholes next to him for it to make sense.

Thing is, we either weren't willing or able to bring in two new players for the midfield. But it was always clear that we needed to add those player types. A mobile ball winner with above average workrate and a player who is at least slightly-above-average in off-the-ball aspects but really good in terms of progression. If we had chosen this player to be bought first instead of Ugarte, we'd probably still be struggling, just for different resasons.

 

[Adnan]

Fully agree. I'd add that this player has to be starting-eleven-Top-5-PL-level who is in his physical peak. And for me personally, that new midfielder will take Brunos spot from today to form a solid, combatitive base. I am happy to push Bruno forward then with the licence to fall back into midfield to help with handling the ball but the days of light weight AMs in the heart of our team simply have to end.

Honestly, without significantly raising the level in midfield we aren't going to make as much progress as a team as far as controlling games go. I honestly don't think we're far off having a very good team. But we need midfielders of a much higher quality.

The last time we had a midfield that even looked decent in-possession was when we had Pogba and Matic. And even then we had issues but at least those players had ability on the ball.

 

[RuudTom83]

If the creative players don't score then sure Ugarte isn't going to make up for that. But it feels like a strange stick to beat him with.

 

[Ludens the Red]

He will always look bang average in games where we have 55-60% of the ball with the current midfield we have.
Something amateur rookies on redcafe.net were saying about him before we signed him.
Thankfully Manchester United know better…..

 

[Isotope]

Best midfield pair i have seen in the last decade or so was Schwein - Martinez at Bayern under Heycknes (?). Both defensively astute while also really good in playmaking.

I think that is the profile we should go. And sadly Ugarte just doesn’t fit.

 

[KjaAnd]

He’s our Conley midfielder who can do the dirty work and occasionally, he shows glimpses of good technique. However, he’s really poor at receiving the ball and passing it forward. Even with plenty of space in front of him he passes it sideways.

 

[NZT-One]

Best midfield pair i have seen in the last decade or so was Schwein - Martinez at Bayern under Heycknes (?). Both defensively astute while also really good in playmaking.

I think that is the profile we should go. And sadly Ugarte just doesn’t fit.

easier said than done unfortunately.

I can see all your points and yes, somebody who has qualities handling the ball under pressure and making good passes from the center of the pitch would be quite good but apart from Ugarte, we have basically nobody in the team I would consider a good ball winner. Ideally we have a combination of that ballwinner and the progressor but those are unfortunately pretty rare. So as long as we don't have those two players who do their job defensively AND are able to progress the ball, I am more than happy to have Ugarte available. And even if at some point, we will have those two players - we'd still be better off having a really good ballwinner in the team for specific matches or influence matches. Take Ugarte out of this team now and add Stiller for example, we'd most likely be still in trouble. It might look a little different but still trouble.

 

[Devil81]

He's a willing grafter but I personally think we've had our pants down again. 50 million seems a bit steep for the ability I've seen on the ball.

I might get shot down for this but he's about the level Joey Barton was, tackler and busy but fairly limited footballer.

 

[lex talionis]

The fee aside, and we do get shafted all the time, Ugarte makes net positive contributions to our overall play, but he has no exceptional talent. Not yet that I've seen at least.

 

[AneRu]

Thing is, we either weren't willing or able to bring in two new players for the midfield. But it was always clear that we needed to add those player types. A mobile ball winner with above average workrate and a player who is at least slightly-above-average in off-the-ball aspects but really good in terms of progression. If we had chosen this player to be bought first instead of Ugarte, we'd probably still be struggling, just for different resasons.

The major feck up was the Mount signing, Ugarte coming in to replace Casemiro would have been logical even if we had planned this in the summer of 2025, but signing another AM when we had Bruno and for that much, knowing how influential Eriksen was for us the season before was just madness. Had we done the job properly we'd now be in a better position in midfield.

I will never forgive the club for the decisions made in that summer, we were on the way up, having finished 3rd and also made a domestic Cup Final and looking to progress. It was clear we needed to find a younger version of Eriksen and a Casemiro understudy to manage his minutes better. We did neither and compound that with spending a King's Ransom on Hoijlund we set ourselves back.

From that setback and the Antony and Casemiro nightmares we basically need to perform miracles in the transfer market or pray that one of our younger midfielders in the youth set up just turns into prime Roy Keane. If we don't get lucky we are looking at a very long road back up.

 

[flameinthesun]

As some others have pointed out, he is doing what he was brought in to do. Breaks up play and plays simple passes. That's his role and based on that he is doing well. His role is not to provide progressive passes, provide attacking output etc. So he should not be judged on that. The CM next to him is the one who should be judged on their output as well as the attacking line.


It does also though raise a question in the manager. You have 5 defenders, plus a defensive midfielder. That's a very defensive set up. Its no wonder why this team struggles to attack or score.

 

[a_devil_inside]

Very hit and miss, but I am unsure what his best role is meant to be

 

[Mike Smalling]

I think he's a good player, and his ability going forward is being underrated a bit. We've seen some decent progressive stuff from him in some games, while it's very limited in other games. If we had a younger Eriksen type next to him, I think it would be a good pairing. Would be similar in some ways to Eriksen-Casemiro in 22/23, before they lost their legs.

 

[Irwin99]

As some others have pointed out, he is doing what he was brought in to do. Breaks up play and plays simple passes. That's his role and based on that he is doing well. His role is not to provide progressive passes, provide attacking output etc. So he should not be judged on that. The CM next to him is the one who should be judged on their output as well as the attacking line.


It does also though raise a question in the manager. You have 5 defenders, plus a defensive midfielder. That's a very defensive set up. Its no wonder why this team struggles to attack or score.

We’ve been struggling to score goals for years in different systems so I do think it’s more of a player issue sadly.

Regarding Ugarte, I honestly don’t think it’s an issue that he has limitations, he’s good at what he’s in the team to do. If you go back to that Liverpool team Klopp had a few years ago their midfield was described by everyone as powerful/functional and a bit limited but they had two fullbacks that bombed forward and a front three that was devastating. It didn’t matter that their midfield wasn’t that creative.

In Amorims ideal system I think the wingbacks are a huge part of the team’s attack and coupled with the two 10s and forward that gives you 5 ‘attacking’ players that can contribute goals/assists. The midfielders just have to screen the defence. It would be nice if the other DM beside Ugarte could do a bit of everything though.

 

[flameinthesun]

We’ve been struggling to score goals for years in different systems so I do think it’s more of a player issue sadly.

Regarding Ugarte, I honestly don’t think it’s an issue that he has limitations, he’s good at what he’s in the team to do. If you go back to that Liverpool team Klopp had a few years ago their midfield was described by everyone as powerful/functional and a bit limited but they had two fullbacks that bombed forward and a front three that was devastating. It didn’t matter that their midfield wasn’t that creative.

In Amorims ideal system I think the wingbacks are a huge part of the team’s attack and coupled with the two 10s and forward that gives you 5 ‘attacking’ players that can contribute goals/assists. The midfielders just have to screen the defence. It would be nice if the other DM beside Ugarte could do a bit of everything though.

I think your last sentence ia key. If you're playing Ugarte then any questions about playmaking should go to the other CMs/ attackers or in this system the wingbacks. He is doing what he was brought in to do, that's all that can be asked for.

 

[Ekeke]

I think your last sentence ia key. If you're playing Ugarte then any questions about playmaking should go to the other CMs/ attackers or in this system the wingbacks. He is doing what he was brought in to do, that's all that can be asked for.

100% agree. He does what his job and what you buy him for. He wins the ball more often than the opposition players. He can sometimes come up with a decent dribble or pass but hes not a standout for that. What he does do is take the defensive responsibility from his partner and some of the attackers and allow them to concentrate more on attack and the defences will love him reducing their workload by winning the ball before they are called into action.

 

[SubutaiScipio]

So why is that a negative of his? Surely it’s a negative of the club, team, manager.

It’s like expecting a striker to create every chance for him or a full back to be a constant attacking threat.

It is a negative because as a midfielder playing for a top club or a club with top aspirations there is a minimum technical level expected of you. A level he falls below.

This is similar to the mistake we made with AWB when we went for a FB who was below the technical level expected of a top team FB, just because he was great slide tackler.

Harrying the opponent and playing with intensity without the required baseline technical level is mid-table to lower table stuff.

Our team already had too many players with irredeemably low scores in our trait or the other. Eriksen with excellent technique but no pace or power, Casemiro with power and game intelligence but no pace, Mainoo with technique but little stamina or pace. Then we went and got another one for big bucks.

We need to be going for more well-rounded players.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

Th

It is a negative because as a midfielder playing for a top club or a club with top aspirations there is a minimum technical level expected of you. A level he falls below.

This is similar to the mistake we made with AWB when we went for a FB who was below the technical level expected of a top team FB, just because he was great slide tackler.

Harrying the opponent and playing with intensity without the required baseline technical level is mid-table to lower table stuff.

Our team already had too many players with irredeemably low scores in our trait or the other. Eriksen with excellent technique but no pace or power, Casemiro with power and game intelligence but no pace, Mainoo with technique but little stamina or pace. Then we went and got another one for big bucks.

We need to be going for more well-rounded players.

Then we’ll have to disagree I don’t think you need every player to be able to do everything. We lacked a ball winner in midfield for a decade, we now have one who actually does provide some progressive passes every game. It’s just some people seem to expect Zidane levels from him.

He gets about the pitch, is strong on the ball and does his job. Ugarte is one of the few good points in this team for me. If he had someone next to him who could run faster than a snail that would help.

From what I’ve read on here once we have marauding wing backs they’ll be attacking 24/7 so we’ll need him to help plug the gaps at the back.

 

[Xeque_279]

Then we’ll have to disagree I don’t think you need every player to be able to do everything. We lacked a ball winner in midfield for a decade, we now have one who actually does provide some progressive passes every game. It’s just some people seem to expect Zidane levels from him.

He gets about the pitch, is strong on the ball and does his job. Ugarte is one of the few good points in this team for me. If he had someone next to him who could run faster than a snail that would help.

From what I’ve read on here once we have marauding wing backs they’ll be attacking 24/7 so we’ll need him to help plug the gaps at the back.

Exactly! He's doing what he's supposed to do in that role and he even has decent passing. Will be very key in this system when we actually have wingbacks who can attack and put pressure being the one to mop up any gaps. It will be him +1 in future lineups.

 

[SubutaiScipio]

Th

Then we’ll have to disagree I don’t think you need every player to be able to do everything. We lacked a ball winner in midfield for a decade, we now have one who actually does provide some progressive passes every game. It’s just some people seem to expect Zidane levels from him.

He gets about the pitch, is strong on the ball and does his job. Ugarte is one of the few good points in this team for me. If he had someone next to him who could run faster than a snail that would help.

From what I’ve read on here once we have marauding wing backs they’ll be attacking 24/7 so we’ll need him to help plug the gaps at the back.

I am not saying we should get players that can do everything but that there is a base level they should not go below even in the things that they are not elite at. He is too limited on the ball for a team that wants to challenge for titles in a competitive league like the EPL. He does not have to be Busquets or Redondo. He should just not be as poor as he is with his inconsistent and often lose touch and what appears to be an inability to spot the next pass early enough. He spends too much time trying to get his control and touch right and by the time he is through with that he is already closed down and gives a safe pedestrian pass that does not break the lines.

Then you factor the fee we paid for a CM who is not useful on the ball. PSG found out within a few months that he was not fit for purpose, and we were the suckers that bought a flop for about the same fee he was bought for before he flopped. He would be an important member of a mid to lower table team (which we currently are) but for any team with title aspirations he does not fit. I can't think of an CM in a top team who is as limited on the ball as he is.

Like you said we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Bobski]

It is a negative because as a midfielder playing for a top club or a club with top aspirations there is a minimum technical level expected of you. A level he falls below.

This is similar to the mistake we made with AWB when we went for a FB who was below the technical level expected of a top team FB, just because he was great slide tackler.

Harrying the opponent and playing with intensity without the required baseline technical level is mid-table to lower table stuff.

Our team already had too many players with irredeemably low scores in our trait or the other. Eriksen with excellent technique but no pace or power, Casemiro with power and game intelligence but no pace, Mainoo with technique but little stamina or pace. Then we went and got another one for big bucks.

We need to be going for more well-rounded players.

I agree entirely with this, we have all these players who require compromises in selection or set up to hide their flaws. Ideally you would have a more rounded squad capable of adapting to different scenarios within games.

Ugarte is very good at hunting the ball down and playing simple passes. However to get the most out of that you would need a specialist DM with a range of passing to cover the gaps he leaves when chasing the ball, but then you have a conservative midfield that pushes the burden of creativity heavily on to the wide guys and attackers which makes the team easier to predict for the opposition.

It is the same up front, fans call out for a goalscorer, but if you pick up a one dimensional striker who offers nothing in build up and is just there to poach that again is going to lead to predictability and is unlikely to be sustainable.

The recruitment has been stupendously poor over a number of years, as you say we keep bringing in people with obvious flaws and pretending it won't be a problem. Lukaku, plenty talked about his poor touch, the same with Maguire and his lack of pace, Casemiro and miles on the clock, Zirkzee looking highly immobile and low energy, AWB being all slide tackles and little else, Martinez being short and slow, you could pick out player after player. Should never be spending huge sums to create easy to foresee tactical problems but Utd have made an art of that in recent years

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Wasn't Ugarte part of Amorims team that won the Portuguese league?

 

[Roane]

Anyone seen that breakdown of Bruno and his mistakes?

Ugarte is a good player. He has a role and keeps it simple. The problem is when you have someone undisciplined like Bruno next to you, you end up covering too big an area.

Problem Ugarte has was the system he was bought for isn't what we now play.

 

[No Love]

Anyone seen that breakdown of Bruno and his mistakes?

Ugarte is a good player. He has a role and keeps it simple. The problem is when you have someone undisciplined like Bruno next to you, you end up covering too big an area.

Problem Ugarte has was the system he was bought for isn't what we now play.

Played for Amorim 85 times at Sporting, so if anything he should be ahead of the curve in terms of what we are trying to play now, no?

https://www.manutd.com/en/amp/news/detail/manuel-ugarte-remembers-time-at-sporting-with-ruben-amorim

 

[Roane]

Played for Amorim 85 times at Sporting, so if anything he should be ahead of the curve in terms of what we are trying to play now, no?

https://www.manutd.com/en/amp/news/detail/manuel-ugarte-remembers-time-at-sporting-with-ruben-amorim

To be honest I knew he played for Sporting under Ruben however I don't know enough about Sporting to know how he got on and what period he played before moving.

Also don't know if he moved because he didn't suit Amorims system/style or it was a money decision etc

 

[Cassidy]

Played for Amorim 85 times at Sporting, so if anything he should be ahead of the curve in terms of what we are trying to play now, no?

https://www.manutd.com/en/amp/news/detail/manuel-ugarte-remembers-time-at-sporting-with-ruben-amorim

He didn't play next to Bruno Fernandes