[Ollie Derbyshire]

Yes he did and he isn’t good enough period

If you say so.

But that wasn’t the conversation you entered, that was that Ugarte wasn’t in my top 5 of players/positions that need upgrading first.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

But you’re focusing on Ugarte as being the main issue in our midfield when he’s had some absolute dross playing next to him for most of it and generally covering the ground of 2 midfielders against 3 man midfields a lot of the time.

Do you not think replacing Casemiro, Eriksen and /or Mainoo is more of a priority in CM than replacing Ugarte?

Liverpool have been amazing in the last 6-8yrs playing a fairly average midfield cause the defence, strikers and full backs have all been elite.

I’ll still stick by my comments, GK, ST and WBs (in this formation), plus the midfielders mentioned above need to be sorted before Ugarte.

Thinking Liverpool have had a “fairly average midfield” for the past 8 years is hilarious. Last year was really one of the only times it wasn’t very good.

 

[championo]

Could it be that he is tired? Did you see the stats that he has started 11 out of last 12 games?

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

Thinking Liverpool have had a “fairly average midfield” for the past 8 years is hilarious. Last year was really one of the only times it wasn’t very good.

Not hilarious at all, they had a work man like midfield for a long time and utilise ‘accurate’ passes to by pass it as quickly as possible.

 

[pocco]

He isn't, I'm an absolute hater of Ugarte but he really isn't. I think that people are at the same time underrating Ugarte's technique because he is now not wanted and overrating Joao Neves technique because PSG are doing well. It's a sort of repeat of what people did last summer with Ugarte compared to our players.

If this is the case then why did Enrique flog Ugarte after one season to sign Neves? I’ve never looked at stats, but to the eye Joao Neves looks a much better footballer.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

If this is the case then why did Enrique flog Ugarte after one season to sign Neves? I’ve never looked at stats, but to the eye Joao Neves looks a much better footballer.

Probably because of exactly that, Neves is a better player, I doubt anyone would argue that.

 

[JPRouve]

If this is the case then why did Enrique flog Ugarte after one season to sign Neves? I’ve never looked at stats, but to the eye Joao Neves looks a much better footballer.

I said it multiple times in the last pages, Ugarte's mentality with and without the ball. Neves is proactive and dynamic while the other is reactive, prone to stand around and look for the safest option. Also even when Neves chooses the safe option, he will move and offer a quick and safe option in return, he keeps things going.

 

[Fortitude]

But you’re focusing on Ugarte as being the main issue in our midfield when he’s had some absolute dross playing next to him for most of it and generally covering the ground of 2 midfielders against 3 man midfields a lot of the time.

Do you not think replacing Casemiro, Eriksen and /or Mainoo is more of a priority in CM than replacing Ugarte?

Liverpool have been amazing in the last 6-8yrs playing a fairly average midfield cause the defence, strikers and full backs have all been elite.

I’ll still stick by my comments, GK, ST and WBs (in this formation), plus the midfielders mentioned above need to be sorted before Ugarte.

The post had nothing to do with Ugarte; building a team from scratch or fixing it to make it competitive, you fix the spine. Surely you've heard of the saying? It pre-dates the both of us by decades, and you'll typically see new managers come in and twiddle/fix those dials before anything else.

You mention Liverpool, who are actually a perfect example as their synergy and flow state through their core has been the foundation upon which their attack got the platform to thrive - the constant recycling of the ball up to the attack in the shortest possible time has been the bedrock for success. Salah gets to do his thing because the ball is pumped up to him over and over due to their midfields and their tireless, seamless work. Liverpool are also perhaps one of the better examples because the names in their midfields haven't been spectacular or big hitters, just functional cogs that don't let each other down.

A DM has to be able to find his teammates without fuss, perhaps in the most understated manner in the team. Unless you've a proper deep-lying playmaker or really superb progressor of the ball, most of what the DM is doing with the ball isn't even acknowledged by most fans, but there they are, constantly able to receive the ball off the CB's, turn with it and play it through traffic to set their team off.

CM's have to be able to play 1, 2 and 3 touch football and chain efficiently enough that they can alleviate pressure for themselves or their teammates; the better they are, the more often they can get carousels going - the best teams in the world at that stuff are PSG and Barcelona, who start to take the piss once they're in their flow state. CM's need to be able to function within the team and do the individualistic stuff as and when it's needed.

You really don't need to do much delving to know we're absolutely awful at both of these aspects. And then you have to ask yourself why; where do passing chains go to die? Who are the players for the opposition to focus on because they know this basic set of skills are something they struggle with?

You mitigate that with someone like Ugarte by having him as far away from the nitty gritty as possible and give him as basic and rudimentary a job as you can - have him run the opposition down and just pass to someone with the same shirt as him in the nearest proximity, and I don't doubt he looks a far better player than when you ask him to play the kind of complex interlinking football that should be the bread and butter of a good deep midfield.

You've mentioned partners in your post, but we don't need to go that far when we see so many of the panicked brainfarts he's had because the game in deep midfield is going quicker than he can process it. Today he froze like a deer in the headlights because the information was coming at him too fast and the answer wasn't uploaded in time. A partner can't do much in that situation.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Probably because of exactly that, Neves is a better player, I doubt anyone would argue that.

All depends what you want in your team. Ugarte is limited but very good at what he does, there’s also the fact that all these players don’t have skill sets cast in cement and can evolve and change their games to a degree. In a pressing 3 I think Ugarte gets into almost any team, in a two where he’s expected to build play and be a ball out from defence he would struggle to start for most teams.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

The post had nothing to do with Ugarte; building a team from scratch or fixing it to make it competitive, you fix the spine. Surely you've heard of the saying? It pre-dates the both of us by decades, and you'll typically see new managers come in and twiddle/fix those dials before anything else.

You mention Liverpool, who are actually a perfect example as their synergy and flow state through their core has been the foundation upon which their attack got the platform to thrive - the constant recycling of the ball up to the attack in the shortest possible time has been the bedrock for success. Salah gets to do his thing because the ball is pumped up to him over and over due to their midfields and their tireless, seamless work. Liverpool are also perhaps one of the better examples because the names in their midfields haven't been spectacular or big hitters, just functional cogs that don't let each other down.

A DM has to be able to find his teammates without fuss, perhaps in the most understated manner in the team. Unless you've a proper deep-lying playmaker or really superb progressor of the ball, most of what the DM is doing with the ball isn't even acknowledged by most fans, but there they are, constantly able to receive the ball off the CB's, turn with it and play it through traffic to set their team off.

CM's have to be able to play 1, 2 and 3 touch football and chain efficiently enough that they can alleviate pressure for themselves or their teammates; the better they are, the more often they can get carousels going - the best teams in the world at that stuff are PSG and Barcelona, who start to take the piss once they're in their flow state. CM's need to be able to function within the team and do the individualistic stuff as and when it's needed.

You really don't need to do much delving to know we're absolutely awful at both of these aspects. And then you have to ask yourself why; where do passing chains go to die? Who are the players for the opposition to focus on because they know this basic set of skills are something they struggle with?

You mitigate that with someone like Ugarte by having him as far away from the nitty gritty as possible and give him as basic and rudimentary a job as you can - have him run the opposition down and just pass to someone with the same shirt as him in the nearest proximity, and I don't doubt he looks a far better player than when you ask him to play the kind of complex interlinking football that should be the bread and butter of a good deep midfield.

You've mentioned partners in your post, but we don't need to go that far when we see so many of the panicked brainfarts he's had because the game in deep midfield is going quicker than he can process it. Today he froze like a deer in the headlights because the information was coming at him to fast and the answer wasn't uploaded in time. A partner can't do much in that situation.

We’re in the Ugarte thread and you challenged me when I said he’s not in my top 5 positions that need upgrading first.

Of course the spine of a team has to be solid everyone knows that but equally most managers will start with prioritising the defence and ensure that is up to scratch. Ours isn’t, both in personnel and the way we play this formation.

Ugarte is a functioning cog in our midfield most of the time is my point. It’s the rest of the midfield and again the formation that have been a bigger issue. I’d go as far as saying that any midfielder would look poor in our team and formation as there are hardly any out balls for them to turn and make. We’d need to drop the PSG or Barca midfield in and they have 3 players in there not Ugarte and half of another.

Let’s agree to disagree. I think if he had a capable and reliable partner next to him, and a functioning team you’d see him keep his performance levels high. As I said to another poster, and it’s only the cafe voting and rating players but he’s had the 3rd most MoM votes and rated the 4th highest average player this season.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

All depends what you want in your team. Ugarte is limited but very good at what he does, there’s also the fact that all these players don’t have skill sets cast in cement and can evolve and change their games to a degree. In a pressing 3 I think Ugarte gets into almost any team, in a two where he’s expected to build play and be a ball out from defence he would struggle to start for most teams.

I totally agree. Horses for courses where he’s doing what is expected from a player of his type, yes he gets caught on the ball like today a bit too much but show me a player in the team who doesn’t, it’s a regular issue and that’s more down to training and giving options for each other.

 

[UpWithRivers]

All depends what you want in your team. Ugarte is limited but very good at what he does, there’s also the fact that all these players don’t have skill sets cast in cement and can evolve and change their games to a degree. In a pressing 3 I think Ugarte gets into almost any team, in a two where he’s expected to build play and be a ball out from defence he would struggle to start for most teams.

Ugarte would not get into any team. Not a chance. Thats the whole reason why everyone wanted the likes of McTominay and Wan B out. Im pretty sure that Wan B could play for Real Madrid and there would be games where he would shut someone out and get Man of the match. Heck if you wanted someone to take out the best wingers in the game there arent many better defensive right backs in the world. Its the same with Ugarte. He can do a certain job really well. He will have games that he is pivotal. But most big teams will never buy players like that because their limitations over a season will be more of a detriment than a positive. We basically have a midfield Wan B

 

[Cassidy]

If you say so.

But that wasn’t the conversation you entered, that was that Ugarte wasn’t in my top 5 of players/positions that need upgrading first.

He is. He isn’t good enough we don’t have a single CM who is

 

[JPRouve]

All depends what you want in your team. Ugarte is limited but very good at what he does, there’s also the fact that all these players don’t have skill sets cast in cement and can evolve and change their games to a degree. In a pressing 3 I think Ugarte gets into almost any team, in a two where he’s expected to build play and be a ball out from defence he would struggle to start for most teams.

He wouldn't get in most ambitious pressinng teams because he has the bad habit of killing the transition. That's why PSG replaced him with Neves.

 

[GlazersHater]

For a player whose main strengths are tenacity and grit, that second goal was extremely embarrassing.

Anyone can lose the ball or make a stupid mistake; it happens. But giving up and not fighting to win it back is simply unacceptable.

No player should be allowed the luxury of being lazy, especially not someone like him, who is already so limited on the ball.

The message needs to be clear he should be benched and confronted in front of the squad. That shameful, no-fight mentality has to be called out and exposed otherwise it spreads like cancer.

 

[tomaldinho1]

He wouldn't get in most ambitious pressinng teams because he has the bad habit of killing the transition. That's why PSG replaced him with Neves.

Define ‘ambitious’.

If you mean teams who want to press high but then, once possession is won, have a highly technical midfield and an attack focused around possession then I’d agree. But if we think of the more vertical styles where there’s a lot more direct football and a deliberate plan to want the opponent to try and play out from deeper areas then I’d disagree.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

He is. He isn’t good enough we don’t have a single CM who is

Fair enough. I’d prioritise other positions/players first.

 

[JPRouve]

Define ‘ambitious’.

If you mean teams who want to press high but then, once possession is won, have a highly technical midfield and an attack focused around possession then I’d agree. But if we think of the more vertical styles where there’s a lot more direct football and a deliberate plan to want the opponent to try and play out from deeper areas then I’d disagree.

A team that wants to win things at the highest level, ambitious.

 

[tomaldinho1]

A team that wants to win things at the highest level, ambitious.

Then I disagree, I definitely don’t think you have to be so reliant on possession these days. Football is becoming more and more about forcing errors and workrate, that is the direction we should be heading as we try and build the foundations of this new team.

 

[Isotope]

...

Let’s agree to disagree. I think if he had a capable and reliable partner next to him, and a functioning team you’d see him keep his performance levels high. As I said to another poster, and it’s only the cafe voting and rating players but he’s had the 3rd most MoM votes and rated the 4th highest average player this season.

Like in PSG??

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

Like in PSG??

Like what in PSG? They replaced him with a better player which is what your meant to do.

We have a lot of other issues to fix before Ugarte is my point.

 

[Oranges038]

Shit and weak on the ball.

Needs a ball player beside him or he just doesn't function, that second goal is so poor to concede.

 

[Isotope]

Like what in PSG? They replaced him with a better player which is what your meant to do.

We have a lot of other issues to fix before Ugarte is my point.

He had better players around, and he just didn't fit in. ENrique couldn't wait to get rid of him.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

He had better players around, and he just didn't fit in. ENrique couldn't wait to get rid of him.

I suppose you think he’s our biggest issue in the team?

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'm honestly trying to retain rationality. But I don't really rate him, or Dorgu for that matter. But still early days I suppose.

Update - he’s crap.

 

[Isotope]

I suppose you think he’s our biggest issue in the team?

He'll be one of our biggest issue, if he'll be in our strongest XI. But yeah, while Case is here, he'd be "only" top 4 or 5 of our biggest issues.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

He'll be one of our biggest issue, if he'll be in our strongest XI. But yeah, while Case is here, he'd be "only" top 4 or 5 of our biggest issues.

I’d honestly say he’s about 7 or 8th biggest issue we have to fix.

 

[Cassidy]

Fair enough. I’d prioritise other positions/players first.

I would too but a CM would be in the top 5

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

I would too but a CM would be in the top 5

But not this CM, I’d upgrade Case, Eriksen and Mainoo (if he’s going to play there) and give Ugarte a solid partner before I actually got rid of Ugarte.

 

[JPRouve]

Then I disagree, I definitely don’t think you have to be so reliant on possession these days. Football is becoming more and more about forcing errors and workrate, that is the direction we should be heading as we try and build the foundations of this new team.

My point had nothing to do with possession Football.

 

[Cassidy]

But not this CM, I’d upgrade Case, Eriksen and Mainoo (if he’s going to play there) and give Ugarte a solid partner before I actually got rid of Ugarte.

I would give Mainoo a solid partner before I got rid of him. I would upgrade the more defensive minded player to one with better technical ability and a better passing range. Given we have Bruno ( chance maker ) and Mainoo ( dribbler, linkup player etc). If we had a physical dm who could progress play would be a better balance. We need a younger Casemiro who can get around the pitch and who has better passing

Ugarte is a decent player just don’t see any top level progression with him. Mainoo I feel could with the right supporting cast.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

I would give Mainoo a solid partner before I got rid of him. I would upgrade the more defensive minded player to one with better technical ability and a better passing range. Given we have Bruno ( chance maker ) and Mainoo ( dribbler, linkup player etc). If we had a physical dm who could progress play would be a better balance

I’ve seen nothing to say Mainoo can play in a midfield 2 at all. He’d be worse than Ugarte there. Mainoo would be seen as the one who can’t cover the ground and leave his partner in trouble.

 

[Cassidy]

I’ve seen nothing to say Mainoo can play in a midfield 2 at all. He’d be worse than Ugarte there. Mainoo would be seen as the one who can’t cover the ground and leave his partner in trouble.

hence the physical partner and also an aggressive and quick CCB

 

[DWelbz19]

The idea of a central midfielder being able to accommodate being shite under pressure and poor on the ball because their midfield partner can do well on it is a fallacy. Just doesn’t work like that.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

hence the physical partner and also an aggressive and quick CCB

I see it the other way round first. We need a progressive ball distributor before we look to upgrade the more physical CM we have as well as a keeper, a quick CB, 2x attacking wing backs, a striker or 2 and another quality 10.

 

[Adamsk7]

It’s like someone has put a hex on us signing a quality midfielder. We haven’t had one for ages.

 

[Cassidy]

I see it the other way round first. We need a progressive ball distributor before we look to upgrade the more physical CM we have as well as a keeper, a quick CB, 2x attacking wing backs, a striker or 2 and another quality 10.

The more physical CM needs to be a progressive distributor watch any top team who plays a midfield 2. You cannot carry a player who cannot progress the ball. You can maybe carry Ugarte in a 3 (PSG didn’t think so) but in my opinion not a 2 unless you are a counter attacking side.

Even in a 3 City have Rodri, Arsenal have Partey, Pool have Gravenbech, Chelsea have Caicedo all players are technically good and good at ball progression and are all physical

I am also not saying to sell Ugarte he can be a decent squad option but his position is entirely upgradable even if we dropped Bruno back to CM

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

The more physical CM needs to be a progressive distributor watch any top team who plays a midfield 2. You cannot carry a player who cannot progress the ball. You can maybe carry Ugarte in a 3 (PSG didn’t think so) but in my opinion not a 2 unless you are a counter attacking side.

City have Rodri, Arsenal have Partey, Pool have Gravenbech, Chelsea have Caicedo all players are technically good and good at ball progression and are all physical

Agreed to be fair but right here right now we still have bigger issues than him.

I think for us in a 3 he’d be great, any 2 midfielders are going to struggle though.

 

[Cassidy]

Agreed to be fair but right here right now we still have bigger issues than him.

I think for us in a 3 he’d be great, any 2 midfielders are going to struggle though.

I don’t think any 2 would struggle. I think the lack of balance in our midfield are entirely personnel related and they are evident in both a 3 or a 2

Funny thing is ETHs top priority was to fix midfield and he and the club did a shite job and spent a lot of money.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

I don’t think any 2 would struggle. I think the lack of balance in our midfield are entirely personnel related and they are evident in both a 3 or a 2

We’ll see next season, if we’re playing this formation and a miracle doesn’t happen in training during pre season, I expect whoever is playing there will look poor.