[Cassidy]

We’ll see next season, if we’re playing this formation and a miracle doesn’t happen in training during pre season, I expect whoever is playing there will look poor.

They will if its our current set of CMs agreed

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

They will if its our current set of CMs agreed

Even new ones as well though if the CBs don’t improve, the wing backs don’t improve, the 10’s don’t improve and striker doesn’t improve.

It’s not just one line of players well under par, it’s all bar Bruno and sometimes Amad.

 

[Cassidy]

Even new ones as well though if the CBs don’t improve, the wing backs don’t improve, the 10’s don’t improve and striker doesn’t improve.

It’s not just one line of players well under par, it’s all bar Bruno and sometimes Amad.

No single signing is made in isolation. Like I said previously CM is not the top priority but its in the top 5 and must be addressed this summer.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

No single signing is made in isolation. Like I said previously CM is not the top priority but its in the top 5 and must be addressed this summer.

Well I think you’ve seen a lot of our signings seem to be haha

 

[KD6-3.7]

When you look at the plethora of technical CMs that PSG have it's criminal that Ugarte was the one we ended up with.

Was happy adding some steel to our midfield but turns out he doesn't even add that.

 

[Cassidy]

Well I think you’ve seen a lot of our signings seem to be haha

Ha yes. Hopefully we don’t make the same mistake this summer

 

[NZT-One]

I see it the other way round first. We need a progressive ball distributor before we look to upgrade the more physical CM we have as well as a keeper, a quick CB, 2x attacking wing backs, a striker or 2 and another quality 10.

For whats its worth, I share the same view in this regard. I think, many people apply certain principles when defining a target-profile to a midfielder but don't incorporate different formations to it. From my understanding, the midfielders at Sporting weren't playmakers at all, they were ball carriers, cloggers who plugged gaps and made themselves available for overloads. Against the ball they were robust harriers with good mobility. The playmaking aspect wasn't predominantly in their hands, that was more on the CBs, the wingbacks and the inside 10s. The ideal midfielder for a 3atb formation might look differently than one for a conventional 4atb.
Depending on whether Amorim wants to replicate his Sporting ideas 1:1, I think, Ugarte will be fine. Especially given that Amorim was known to combine his midfield depending on the opposition. Having a gritty player like Ugarte is important, even if you don't want to play him in your starting eleven religiously at all costs. We also have to make sure, that the way Bruno plays isn't limiting our understanding of how progression looks like - long balls in behind is nice and all, but it isn't the only way and currently, I'd say athletic ball carriers are more often to found in those regions than long passers. Probably mostly because such players, defensively sound and good passers will probably moulded into CBs.

 

[Brand Nubian]

Dont think Enrique is in charge of recruitement at PSG but I believe if he was fully aware of Ugarte´s limitations with the ball he would have never okayed signing him. So Its a case of playing in less intense and aggresive, slower and worse quality league masking some crucial flawes you have as a player. Worry is that while a fan on United forum JPRouve could see it from miles of and warn others about it the best in class people being paid huge money to run United could not.

Even worse, PSG with bottomless pot can take big risks with signings while cashflow/PSR struggled United have to get big money signings spot on. Possibly United were after Ugarte at the same time as PSG so Mendes knew that even if Manuel wasnt going to be a sucess there hed still negotiate a good deal with Manchester later.

Think it was Pools Lucas who after a first few PL games said he felt like hes parking his car on a motorway. He adjusted later just to be at least serviceable holding mid but he had quick brain and under pressure could pick passes along the ground between lines Ugarte does not seem capable of. And thats with the later physically not being that much faster nor imposing. Im worried that even in a top team Ugarte would alwas be a go to pressing trigger for the opposition, not trusted as an option in congested areas by his teamates or simply lacking enough quality under pressure to make right and quick decisions with the ball.

 

[It'sYanitedLads]

No single signing is made in isolation. Like I said previously CM is not the top priority but its in the top 5 and must be addressed this summer.

It's easily our second biggest priority (after a striker) if the people at our club have any sense left in their heads.

We literally have zero good midfield players other than fernandes. We can't build up or progress the ball reliably.

The biggest issue is this club seems to be especially allergic to making good midfield signings. It's like they see a midfielder and completely ignore the fundamentals that they should be good at when signing them, ugarte the prime example

Sort of signing that has me deeply worried we might be going in the same old direction under Ineos. Everyone knew he was a red flag except them.

I'm honestly inclined to believe the only reason we signed him was as a favour to mendes for getting the yoro deal done cause otherwise I can't explain such a moronic decision.

 

[CannibalSpectre]

When you look at the plethora of technical CMs that PSG have it's criminal that Ugarte was the one we ended up with.

Was happy adding some steel to our midfield but turns out he doesn't even add that.

Never wanted him here. When PSG, a club with a less than friendly history with united sells us a player, you have to think twice. He flopped there, in the so called farmer's league and was given chances.

What made anyone think he'd excel with us especially during these turbulent times? The jury is still out but the evidence thus far shows we need way more than what he provides especially as a regular starter

 

[OT_United]

Could be useful in certain games but he’s way below what we need.
Shocking signing. Wonder who pushed for him, Ten Hag, Ashworth, or someone else?

 

[It'sYanitedLads]

I don't agree with that. In terms of touch it's about the same, the difference with PSG is that Neves isn't caught in possession as easily because he doesn't stall, he keeps moving. And I could be wrong but I don't think that Neves tried or completed more dribbles than Ugarte did with PSG. Their strength and weaknesses from a technical standpoint are roughly the same but the attitude and understanding of the games aren't, they are in two worlds in that department.

Edit: I had a look and funnily enough they have the same dribbling stats this season in the league, not that it says a lot but it's kind of funny.

Neves is technically superior to ugarte and its not particularly close. I think you're making the mistake of thinking his mental attributes inform his on-ball characteristics when its the other way around.

The reason ugarte is so fidgety in possession is because he doesn't trust himself to execute high-volume possession actions correctly.

You see this constantly with players with poor technical fundamentals which you can tell ugarte has since he has the first touch of a donkey. He struggles with ball control which is typically a sign of poor technique.

His dribbling is surprisingly good though as you rightly point out but that's only one aspect of technique.

 

[talking robot]

He'll become a bench player over time. Don't think he'll start the final.

 

[FrankDrebin]

PSG and Mendes really saw us coming and, from what I remember, we were the only club that publicly showed strong interest to.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Our recruitment is just abysmal

 

[antohan]

That was embarrassing and really worrying. His confidence must be completely shot. You have to be mentally knackered to just give up like that.

 

[Cassidy]

It's easily our second biggest priority (after a striker) if the people at our club have any sense left in their heads.

We literally have zero good midfield players other than fernandes. We can't build up or progress the ball reliably.

The biggest issue is this club seems to be especially allergic to making good midfield signings. It's like they see a midfielder and completely ignore the fundamentals that they should be good at when signing them, ugarte the prime example

Sort of signing that has me deeply worried we might be going in the same old direction under Ineos. Everyone knew he was a red flag except them.

I'm honestly inclined to believe the only reason we signed him was as a favour to mendes for getting the yoro deal done cause otherwise I can't explain such a moronic decision.

I agree with some of what you are saying but the days of ball buildup being sole responsibility of CM are dead. Infact in this type of system the CBs and wing backs become more important in the build up.

 

[Highfather_24]

I get frustated because how come "best in class" DOFs cant see what an amateur from half way round the world can see so clearly.

I knew exactly what was wrong with Ugarte, it was v obvious to see, but people here defended the transfer, apparently I had an agenda and just being negative.

Our midfield needs players with technical ability, and we went out and bought a destroyer for 60M. Typical United.

 

[FrankDrebin]

I get frustated because how come "best in class" DOFs cant see what an amateur from half way round the world can see so clearly.

I knew exactly what was wrong with Ugarte, it was v obvious to see, but people here defended the transfer, apparently I had an agenda and just being negative.

Our midfield needs players with technical ability, and we went out and bought a destroyer for 60M. Typical United.

Even then I think that's up for debate.

Atm he really is a nothing player. The midfielder equivalent of Hojlund.

 

[It'sYanitedLads]

I agree with some of what you are saying but the days of ball buildup being sole responsibility of CM are dead. Infact in this type of system the CBs and wing backs become more important in the build up.

It's not their sole responsibility buy it is still their MAIN responsibility.

Centrebacks and wingbacks may contribute but make no mistake a good possession structure lives and dies by the midfield players regardless of what system you use.

Possession value is always greatest through the middle third

There's not an elite side In the world that doesn't have good central midfielders.

You especially can't succeed If those players are net-negatives in possession

 

[Ezkay]

The major issue might be mental but NO, he is worse than Neves in terms of technique. Neves has a better touch and superior dribbling and passing ability.

Separately but Ugarte defensive ability is also substantially worse than Neves, and in general very overrated. His technique is horrible in tackles and often goes diving full body in, Neves is different he will toepoke from the blindside just as the player is about to release the ball

We’re in the Ugarte thread and you challenged me when I said he’s not in my top 5 positions that need upgrading first.

Of course the spine of a team has to be solid everyone knows that but equally most managers will start with prioritising the defence and ensure that is up to scratch. Ours isn’t, both in personnel and the way we play this formation.

Ugarte is a functioning cog in our midfield most of the time is my point. It’s the rest of the midfield and again the formation that have been a bigger issue. I’d go as far as saying that any midfielder would look poor in our team and formation as there are hardly any out balls for them to turn and make. We’d need to drop the PSG or Barca midfield in and they have 3 players in there not Ugarte and half of another.

Let’s agree to disagree. I think if he had a capable and reliable partner next to him, and a functioning team you’d see him keep his performance levels high. As I said to another poster, and it’s only the cafe voting and rating players but he’s had the 3rd most MoM votes and rated the 4th highest average player this season.

Name me a good team that sacrifices a space for someone as limited and shite as him to play alongside a much better player? It’s just doesn’t happen. Palhinha is kinda similar (much better defensively) and he can’t get a sniff at Bayern, there’s no space for these limited players anymore. Ugarte is a pressing trigger too opposition team lick their lips every time he gets the ball,

 

[Fortitude]

I think the clear worry with players like this is the feeling of the slippery slope into quicksand with them. Some will claim things will be fine and work out with them because of devotion to United (I feel), but for the rest of us, who look at these things with a colder more cynical eye, you already see a player whose technical ability didn't look the part being predictably swamped by the role and task at hand. Perhaps he adjusts and at least thinks faster, and therefore executes better, but the omens, and common sense tell you otherwise because that technical acumen tends to either be there or it isn't. There are examples of players who took leaps in utilisation of what they have, but why are we in a predicament where a new signing has to become a magic unicorn to meet the bar we should be aspiring to? Why are we constantly bringing in players who are delimited and are doing well to just make the grade, let alone elevating our baseline and even pushing us on to be better as a collective?

I don't really like reminiscing in this sense of using the old to blast the new, but when you're raised on: Robson, Ince, Keane, Scholes, Veron and Carrick and the like who could effortlessly progress the ball or use it as it needs to be used, your levels of scrutiny regarding poor use of the ball are innately sky high - you don't bang on about it time after time, but you know what the bar is for the club and you know how far off it what you're watching is. It's basically a pop quiz by now to ask when was the last time Manchester United could hold its own and literally outplay opposing sides straight through midfield. You kill so much hope and enthusiasm by controlling the midfield. Equally, you give so much hope and optimism to the opposition when they know full well that running down a midfield has a high chance of reaping dividends, and that's precisely where we are now. Midfields just come at us with no fear or regard for what we might do to them, and we capitulate because we don't have the ability to play them off the park or kill their notion of pressing us. We see with the best midfields that it's still not an option to try and go straight at them, in 2025. All it ends with is exhausted players after 30-60 minutes and a reduction in your own productivity. PSG and Barca have shown us that on the grand stage.

Those teams are currently the pinnacle for midfield control and pisstakery, we're obviously nowhere near them, but it doesn't mean you can't aspire to be or that you can't work on principles that make your own midfield hard to play against. The likelihood of Ugarte having to be out of the team for us to be able to play the kind of football that gets you to the top of the pile, is far, far higher than the likelihood he becomes a rock solid cog in the evolution of our midfield. Again, why would you use a player who starts well behind the line to try and get well ahead of the line? It makes no sense, and that's where our recruitment has once again shown itself to be seriously lacking - it should be noted that PSG did not play the football they have this season before Enrique put his foot down and made it so... by removing components that prevented it and bringing in components that enabled it to happen. Whether you are in the camp that believes we facilitated that by taking on Ugarte whilst they brought in Neves, the point is, Enrique was not going to have him in his midfield, regardless. The same process is likely to repeat on itself. How can it not? If you want to play slick, progressive football, you have to facilitate it. To facilitate it, you need to utilise the correct kind of players and that's where Ugarte is either sold or relegated to the bench as a sub or specialist you roll out for specific games rather than a mainstay in your best teams.

He's been struggling for a while, but the last couple of weeks, particularly the EL semi final (both legs), has really brought to light a template for other teams to follow in how to isolate and then swarm Ugarte. I fear for him in the final if he starts. The pressure on him to hold his own will be absolutely immense because he will be targeted relentlessly, as he should be. It's only logical that if you think you've found an exploit, you thoroughly explore it, and that's what Spurs are going to spend most of the game doing. Ugarte has to not only hold his own then, but prove he's a bad idea to target by using the ball well enough for it to be a bad tactical plan to keep wasting resources on pressing him. I don't know how many back him to come through that with flying colours - I am quite certain he's good for a big mistake or two as we've seen with Bilbao away and home and with West Ham.

It's not because he's mentally weak for me, it's because his technical competence just doesn't stand up to scrutiny - you run him down, the odds he will make a mistake because of it are high for me. If I were setting up to face United, I'd have my men time their press to go full octane as the ball is passed to him - he's likely to try and turn away from the traffic or try to take one touch too many and be robbed of the ball. Added bonus is he might earn himself a yellow trying to rectify his initial mistake. A win-win.

I'd like to wish the guy well, but you don't see players like him in the best midfields for good reason. It would be an incredible feat for him to hold down a place in a competent United midfield, or to hold his own now that the secret is out that you wanna swarm him for all your worth.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

The idea of a central midfielder being able to accommodate being shite under pressure and poor on the ball because their midfield partner can do well on it is a fallacy. Just doesn’t work like that.

True, but this place has had an obsession with midfield destroyers since the last years of SAF.

 

[It'sYanitedLads]

Separately but Ugarte defensive ability is also substantially worse than Neves, and in general very overrated. His technique is horrible in tackles and often goes diving full body in, Neves is different he will toepoke from the blindside just as the player is about to release the ball

Name me a good team that sacrifices a space for someone as limited and shite as him to play alongside a much better player? It’s just doesn’t happen. Palhinha is kinda similar (much better defensively) and he can’t get a sniff at Bayern, there’s no space for these limited players anymore. Ugarte is a pressing trigger too opposition team lick their lips every time he gets the ball,

I'm glad you brought this up. His tackling technique is indeed terrible , and one of the reasons he gets bypassed so much. He tries to tackle typically on the wrong side of the player and usually just ends up fouling them instead.

Casemiro for all his faults is still much superior in this respect.

Another thing casemiro surpasses ugarte in is general physicality. I remember somebody talking about Ugarte as a player who thinks he is more athletic and physically dominant than he actually is and has sort of tailored his game to that delusion. Which I think is apt.

So yes ugarte is basically a flawed destroyer who is a net-negative in all facets of possession. How you can decide to pay 50 million for that I don't really know (mendes masterclass).

 

[Ludens the Red]

I get frustated because how come "best in class" DOFs cant see what an amateur from half way round the world can see so clearly.

I knew exactly what was wrong with Ugarte, it was v obvious to see, but people here defended the transfer, apparently I had an agenda and just being negative.

Our midfield needs players with technical ability, and we went out and bought a destroyer for 60M. Typical United.

It is quite a common occurrence on here. I put it down to people just get excited over any signing regardless. They then can’t see the forest for the trees when someone tries to pick apart a signing. I wouldn’t say I was 100% against signing ugarte. I think he was probably better suited to ETH’s system, he certainly isn’t to Amorim at THIS LEVEL… but I like yourself pointed out his limitations and was met with digs.

If you look back at the summer window this and last season you’d have a fairly good amount of people praising the window. Even though both were clearly dreadful at the time and then shock horror turned out to be dreadful.

The same thing will happen this summer.
The contrast in views on this place is actually quite staggering. But you can basically boil it down to ‘rational and irrational pessimists’ vs ‘rational and irrational optimists’..

 

[groovyalbert]

Pluck any of PSG's cm's and stick them here and they would struggle. We don't have the balance in the squad and positions like Ugarte's are massively exposed in this system without the right defenders/options out.

 

[AdNani]

I don't think I've ever been annoyed at a player as much as I was for him for that second goal. What the feck was he trying to do and why the feck did he just stay on the ground.

 

[Dec9003]

Pluck any of PSG's cm's and stick them here and they would struggle. We don't have the balance in the squad and positions like Ugarte's are massively exposed in this system without the right defenders/options out.

They’re massively better than Ugarte.

 

[groovyalbert]

They’re massively better than Ugarte.

Maybe, but I don't recall Vitinha being anywhere near this level at Wolves/people suggesting we sign him.

I also don't think writing off a player after their first season playing in midfield in the PL is altogether fair. It's a totally different league to France and Portugal and will obviously take adapting too. Add to that the shitshow Ugarte came into, I think it's pretty unfair to single him out yet.

 

[pocco]

It's not because he's mentally weak for me, it's because his technical competence just doesn't stand up to scrutiny - you run him down, the odds he will make a mistake because of it are high for me. If I were setting up to face United, I'd have my men time their press to go full octane as the ball is passed to him - he's likely to try and turn away from the traffic or try to take one touch too many and be robbed of the ball. Added bonus is he might earn himself a yellow trying to rectify his initial mistake. A win-win.

Teams have been doing this for ages. I said before the Spurs 3-0 loss at home, that their midfield would exploit all of his weaknesses. I think he'd barely played at that point, but in the limited time he had, it took 2 second to weigh up how to play against him. He's a headless chicken that gets pulled all over the pitch chasing the ball - more physical/technical players turn him/play around him with ease. That's exactly what Spurs did that day - he was shocking. Then like you said, he's the trigger for the press. Although I've noticed our own players tend to avoid using him now, but opposition shape forces it sometimes through setting traps to great effect. Leave him wide open for our obvious 'out-ball' and then hit him fast whilst he's stumbling all over the ball.

He's fecking shite. End of.

 

[Salfordlad70]

I thought we’d signed a destroyer when we bought this lad. He’s not terrible, but he’s been disappointing with regards to his all round game.

Like Amorim, he needs a pre-season and some better players around him.

 

[LukeTheRed]

Maybe, but I don't recall Vitinha being anywhere near this level at Wolves/people suggesting we sign him.

I also don't think writing off a player after their first season playing in midfield in the PL is altogether fair. It's a totally different league to France and Portugal and will obviously take adapting too. Add to that the shitshow Ugarte came into, I think it's pretty unfair to single him out yet.

TBF Vitinha was only like 20 when he was at Wolves. If he came to the Prem now I have no doubt he would be a success he looks a really classy player who I think could play for any team

 

[Silas]

True, but this place has had an obsession with midfield destroyers since the last years of SAF.

It's painful. There needs to be a baseline level of technical ability before we even consider a player, regardless of position/role.

Maybe, but I don't recall Vitinha being anywhere near this level at Wolves/people suggesting we sign him.

I also don't think writing off a player after their first season playing in midfield in the PL is altogether fair. It's a totally different league to France and Portugal and will obviously take adapting too. Add to that the shitshow Ugarte came into, I think it's pretty unfair to single him out yet.

There's no maybe about it.

Players don't suddenly get better at fundamentals at 24. He looked limited in Ligue 1, it's not as if there's a higher level he's achieved elsewhere in this regard (technical ability). I can't see successive years in the PL making a difference.

 

[Fortitude]

Teams have been doing this for ages. I said before the Spurs 3-0 loss at home, that their midfield would exploit all of his weaknesses. I think he'd barely played at that point, but in the limited time he had, it took 2 second to weigh up how to play against him. He's a headless chicken that gets pulled all over the pitch chasing the ball - more physical/technical players turn him/play around him with ease. That's exactly what Spurs did that day - he was shocking. Then like you said, he's the trigger for the press. Although I've noticed our own players tend to avoid using him now, but opposition shape forces it sometimes through setting traps to great effect. Leave him wide open for our obvious 'out-ball' and then hit him fast whilst he's stumbling all over the ball.

He's fecking shite. End of.

I think he got the 'welcome to the league' hazing initially and generally has had the rug pulled from under him, but seemed to get over it to a degree, but it's looked like he's the primary target now, like it's become the concerted, de facto thing to do - Casemiro and Bruno were flakier back then, but notedly have settled since, so aren't being pressed much, instead the trigger seems to now all be on Ugarte. I think it's also reaping more clear cut dividend of late, which is a worrying negative trend.

The outball, as you state, is being corralled to him and the press has felt like there's no doubt in oppo minds that there's something in it for them - if he could turn out with the ball, he'd have acres of space they've vacated pressing him to play into, but he's turtling and freezing.

I think he's better than *this* but expect more and more dangerous turnovers if we continue to play him in deep midfield.

Between he, Onana and Højlund, I really worry for us in the final. Spurs can squeeze the life out of midfield by putting their backline right on top of it - because of no fear of Højlund - and really work for those turnovers into work down our right or speculative pot shots at Onana he might parry into an on-rushing attacker or turn into his own net.

 

[GueRed]

The jury is still out for me.

If he was English though he'd be mocked and slaughtered by the worldwide fanbase already.

 

[Lanesy]

Still trying to work out what he does that Toby Collyer can’t do? What does he do that Maxi Oyedele, who we sold for peanuts, can’t do? Even Amrabat, who would’ve been a much cheaper option, can’t do?

Another gem find from our scouting department.

 

[Owen Hargo]

I get frustated because how come "best in class" DOFs cant see what an amateur from half way round the world can see so clearly.

I knew exactly what was wrong with Ugarte, it was v obvious to see, but people here defended the transfer, apparently I had an agenda and just being negative.

Our midfield needs players with technical ability, and we went out and bought a destroyer for 60M. Typical United.

Yes, I said it before and say it again here, everyone was celebrating signing him here and I was skeptical about it which made me a rival’s fan given I’m a Newbie. Funny thing is Fred is miles better than him. Both are not what we are looking for, but before pushing for a signing we should watch a few games of him before? We did the same with Amrabat after the FA cup final many people here wanted him to sign a new deal.

 

[Tosicsleftpeg]

Was fuming with him yesterday and yes he was crap but he's had good games recently and there were plenty of other dreadful performances out there. Some people are going a little over the top on him at the moment, he's a decent player in a struggling side.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Not hilarious at all, they had a work man like midfield for a long time and utilise ‘accurate’ passes to by pass it as quickly as possible.

Sure it wasn't full of Barca level artists and technicians, but those Fabinho was one of the best DM's in the world who could do it all on the ball and they had some combo of Wijnaldum, Henderson, Milner, Oxlade, etc. who quite frankly shit on our midfield options in terms of pace and power.

Having a workman like midfield was just basic technique is fine if you have a bunch of freak athletes bullying everyone. Newcastle isn't the prettiest midfield on the ball but it doesn't matter because they know they'll win almost every duel and have more than enough technique to progress the ball either way. We don't have either, and as the quality of our forward play has gone downhill it's just exposed the weaknesses we've had in midfield more and more because we aren't able to cover up getting out played/outran anymore with goals.

 

[red_de_pologne]

Was fuming with him yesterday and yes he was crap but he's had good games recently and there were plenty of other dreadful performances out there. Some people are going a little over the top on him at the moment, he's a decent player in a struggling side.

We spent 60M+, we needed a transformative midfielder for that amount, PSG used it to buy a fantastic midfielder