[Tosicsleftpeg]

We spent 60M+, we needed a transformative midfielder for that amount, PSG used it to buy a fantastic midfielder

Sums the club up mate, I think he's decent but he's no more than that. People are over reacting I think but he's not as bad as it's made out.

 

[Cassidy]

It's not their sole responsibility buy it is still their MAIN responsibility.

Centrebacks and wingbacks may contribute but make no mistake a good possession structure lives and dies by the midfield players regardless of what system you use.

Possession value is always greatest through the middle third

There's not an elite side In the world that doesn't have good central midfielders.

You especially can't succeed If those players are net-negatives in possession

I didn’t say anything about having net negative players in midfield and keeping posession. I was specifically talking about ball progression in build up.

In this system you could have 2 really good CMs and fail in build up if you don’t have the right players at CB and wingback, especially going against a 3 in midfield.

Also the responsibility of the midfield has moved more from progression alone to zone pressing and ball winning. Saying that it does not mean that your midfielders should be poor on the ball like Ugarte, infact its the opposite, you need excellent ball players who can run all day, press, dribble, keep the ball under pressure etc

We don’t have a single midfielder that is good enough

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

Separately but Ugarte defensive ability is also substantially worse than Neves, and in general very overrated. His technique is horrible in tackles and often goes diving full body in, Neves is different he will toepoke from the blindside just as the player is about to release the ball

Name me a good team that sacrifices a space for someone as limited and shite as him to play alongside a much better player? It’s just doesn’t happen. Palhinha is kinda similar (much better defensively) and he can’t get a sniff at Bayern, there’s no space for these limited players anymore. Ugarte is a pressing trigger too opposition team lick their lips every time he gets the ball,

I’m sure if I looked there’d be plenty playing for the team 16th in their league. Which goes with the conversation that started this which is we have bigger issues to fix than Ugarte. Once they have been he’ll be next on the list.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

Sure it wasn't full of Barca level artists and technicians, but those Fabinho was one of the best DM's in the world who could do it all on the ball and they had some combo of Wijnaldum, Henderson, Milner, Oxlade, etc. who quite frankly shit on our midfield options in terms of pace and power.

Having a workman like midfield was just basic technique is fine if you have a bunch of freak athletes bullying everyone. Newcastle isn't the prettiest midfield on the ball but it doesn't matter because they know they'll win almost every duel and have more than enough technique to progress the ball either way. We don't have either, and as the quality of our forward play has gone downhill it's just exposed the weaknesses we've had in midfield more and more because we aren't able to cover up getting out played/outran anymore with goals.

I do agree with you that the composition of our midfield is horrendous but is that Ugarte fault that it detracts from what he’s expected to do? Replacing the rest of our midfield options is a higher priority for me.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

I do agree with you that the composition of our midfield is horrendous but is that Ugarte fault that it detracts from what he’s expected to do? Replacing the rest of our midfield options is a higher priority for me.

I think the point of "replacing" Ugarte that people say is replacing him in the lineup. Unless someone came along and wanted to spend 40m+ to take him off our hands, he's not actually going anywhere right now.

But the complaint for myself and others is that for a "defensive anchor" type of midfielder, he isn't nearly good enough at the defensive part. Sure he completes a ton of tackles and defensive actions but his actual success rate in duels is very average and he struggles physically with the league and his counterparts. So we have a "defense first" midfielder that we bought for 50m but isn't good enough at his role to truly dominate or impact games while being a 0 in possession. It's why he gets subbed off at almost every opportunity, because his defensive work isn't so good that we really "need" him to stay on the pitch. And it becomes even more frustrating because this result was all too predictable given what he had showed at PSG just a year ago.

 

[RedRoach]

Our last complete, high quality midfielder who isn't over the hill was Carrick. Let that sink in. Every other midfielder since has had limitations and/or problems with their game (Pogba included who although talented was a defensive liability).

This team has been crying out for over a decade for recruitment in the midfield that doesn't suck. Instead we have bought players who have lost their legs or were about to (Casemiro, Eriksen) or players who simply don't meet the required level like Ugarte. Pogba is the only one who met the level but had other limitations and issues.

Our recruitment is beyond diabolical at this point.

 

[Judas]

He's got some positives, and he'll probably do better with a decent partner next to him who balances out his weaknesses. Overall am I impressed? Not really. He's very limited, I knew he would be, and he's certainly not all bad and he is actually quite key to us now, which probably says more about how weak our midfield is, but yeah I can't say he's all that.

 

[jem]

I don't think I've ever been annoyed at a player as much as I was for him for that second goal. What the feck was he trying to do and why the feck did he just stay on the ground.

And then looked so blasé when he finally did get up. Unforgivable.

 

[Fortitude]

I don't think I've ever been annoyed at a player as much as I was for him for that second goal. What the feck was he trying to do and why the feck did he just stay on the ground.

It's interesting how interpretation works; for me, it further suggested he was startled and in shock (or shell shocked) and not with it for the duration of being blitzed, freezing, being dispossesed and then watching his "assailant" run off with the goods (ball). A bit like someone being robbed on the street. Shocked and temporarily frozen, not lazy or indifferent, just lost for a moment.

This happens when your senses get overwhelmed - being startled like that can be the result of sensory overload and it's not the first time it's happened to him over the last few games, but it is the worst example as he looked totally out of it rather than being able to try and make a recovery play.

I do agree with you that the composition of our midfield is horrendous but is that Ugarte fault that it detracts from what he’s expected to do? Replacing the rest of our midfield options is a higher priority for me.

The run on here is saying he should be the first name on our teamsheet for midfield. You are seriously saying he is outperforming Casemiro and/or Bruno in deep midfield?

Think you might be in for shock there; getting in a new, quality CM or DM, the preference will be slot him next to the best player and not only share the load, but have perhaps a greater responsibility than his partner to do the heavy lifting - I think that would reduce Ugarte's purpose, not enhance it.

We're using a 2-man base, not a 3-man midfield with a runner who can go and track the ball. The priorities are different then and I'm surprised you think a quality midfielder wouldn't be used to aid one of the other guys than they would be to aid Ugarte in doing his thing. What I'm saying here is his thing wouldn't be catered to and he'd become even more the target for the opposition to focus on. At least with 'old man' Casemiro or 'defensively irresponsible' Bruno, there's potentially change to be had out of them in terms of stamina and mobility (Casemiro) or positional indiscipline and erraticism (Bruno); if we actually got our midfield in order, Ugarte would immediately find himself on the wrong side of it in another PSG scenario where he, in isolation, doesn't offer enough to justify his position, but also for him to then become the sole focus of opposition planning (drawing fouls, overturning the ball, being made to play faster than he can cope with, being the pressing trigger point) none of that improves for him in a better midfield, it just highlights his own shortcomings even more. At least right now he is an engine and the legs, but better midfields ask for far more than that from a player.

By asking for what you are, you're essentially having him phased out of the team before the other two.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

It's interesting how interpretation works; for me, it further suggested he was startled and in shock (or shell shocked) and not with it for the duration of being blitzed, freezing, being dispossesed and then watching his "assailant" run off with the goods (ball). A bit like someone being robbed on the street. Shocked and temporarily frozen, not lazy or indifferent, just lost for a moment.

This happens when your senses get overwhelmed - being startled like that can be the result of sensory overload and it's not the first time it's happened to him over the last few games, but it is the worst example as he looked totally out of it rather than being able to try and make a recovery play.

The run on here is saying he should be the first name on our teamsheet for midfield. You are seriously saying he is outperforming Casemiro and/or Bruno in deep midfield?

Think you might be in for shock there; getting in a new, quality CM or DM, the preference will be slot him next to the best player and not only share the load, but have perhaps a greater responsibility than his partner to do the heavy lifting - I think that would reduce Ugarte's purpose, not enhance it.

We're using a 2-man base, not a 3-man midfield with a runner who can go and track the ball. The priorities are different then and I'm surprised you think a quality midfielder wouldn't be used to aid one of the other guys than they would be to aid Ugarte in doing his thing. What I'm saying here is his thing wouldn't be catered to and he'd become even more the target for the opposition to focus on. At least with 'old man' Casemiro or 'defensively irresponsible' Bruno, there's potentially change to be had out of them in terms of stamina and mobility (Casemiro) or positional indiscipline and erraticism (Bruno); if we actually got our midfield in order, Ugarte would immediately find himself on the wrong side of it in another PSG scenario where he, in isolation, doesn't offer enough to justify his position, but also for him to then become the sole focus of opposition planning (drawing fouls, overturning the ball, being made to play faster than he can cope with, being the pressing trigger point) none of that improves for him in a better midfield, it just highlights his own shortcomings even more. At least right now he is an engine and the legs, but better midfields ask for far more than that from a player.

By asking for what you are, you're essentially having him phased out of the team before the other two.

Do you think Casemiro has played well for longer than a month this season? I’m not going to even mention last season. Bruno for me should be a 10 not a CM, he drops back because we have no one else in midfield who can distribute the ball well enough. That includes Ugarte but also all the midfielders we have.

To consistently have Casemiro in the first 11 you’d need a prime Keane, Viera or Petite as he offers so little in terms of stability. Casemiro is actually more effective the higher up the pitch he plays in my opinion as that masks his lack of stamina and athleticism.

I’m not saying Ugarte shouldn’t be upgraded in time I’m saying he wouldn’t be my first choice in midfield to upgrade.

Eriksen, he’s leaving, replace him with a new midfielder of your choice and then you have Bruno, Casemiro and/or Ugarte depending on the opposition to choose from.

Casemiro would be next out the door as my eyes aren’t blinkered by a good months worth of performances.

Then what about Mainoo? He can’t play in that midfield two as I’d put money on Jan Molby out pacing him for a 2nd ball. I’m not sure where he fits in yet and may just be a squad player till he works it out.

Bruno as I said I’d have as a 10 as we lose a lot of his goal threat when he drops deep.

If we turn it around with a new midfielder and one of Casemiro or Bruno in the central 2 then I’ll come back and let you know you were right. But I don’t think Ugarte is the biggest issue there.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

He's really bad at the moment

 

[It'sYanitedLads]

He's really bad at the moment

He's a glorified shin-kicker what did you expect? We knew what we were getting with this guy.

Mendes masterclass

 

[Fahad Jawaid]

Night and day between his technical ability and Casemiro, who have become very important for us after looking good for Saudi and MLS. He was suppose to improve and replace Casemiro, however it seems we still need to spend in midfield and frankly he is currently not our first choice and we need to improve, our midfield can not have a player who is technically such a liability.

 

[Godfather]

He's really bad at the moment

We should stop buying players that can't get into other teams first 11

 

[Annihilate Now!]

We should stop buying players that can't get into other teams first 11

Especially when they're not in the side because the team wants to play a more technical style of football

 

[Ezkay]

Hope he doesn't play on Wednesday

 

[Brand Nubian]

Hope he doesn't play on Wednesday

But there isnt much choice to partner Casemiro is there? You expect strong athletic Spurs midfield. Ugarte while no Keanno has more bite and strenth in duels than Bruno, Mainoo or Eriksen. Also a case for Bruno needed further forwards even up top in false 9 (unlikely) scenario.

If Spurs go with same tactics as basicaly the whole season as they dont know much else: that will be a danger for Manuél. Spurs pressing with 8 men forcing a turnover or keeper/defence go long with a punt. Worry is United trying to play through it, Ugarte receiving passes back to goal or on half turn chased down hard and with power in numbers. Could lead to a turnover or two in critical area.

Thats a risky for anyone anyway. The first 20min of oppo burning energy United have to go long purporsely. The problem you need an outlet: wingbacks pinned deep with oppo FBs also pressing way deep. Hojlund not your man to control a long relieving punt a bring others into play. Two tens need to play wider finding space for these crossballs. Would also urge Rasmus to fill space in front of midfield duo with 10 ´s staying a bit higher ready to punish high Spurs line.

 

[Bobski]

Cas or Bruno hitting a first time ball over the top to release the runner is the type of play they specialize in and one that has worked against Spurs all season.

Ugarte is a good tackler but I am much less convinced that he actually makes a team better defensively, his tendency to chase the ball opens gaps, Maddison played with him in the home league game due to that, thankfully he and Kulusevski are both out, who would be the most likely to exploit that.

 

[Bobski]

Biggest game of the season, doesn't play a minute.

It was a strange signing.

 

[Adz_99]

Biggest game of the season, doesn't play a minute.

It was a strange signing.

He should have done though.

 

[Swerny]

Biggest game of the season, doesn't play a minute.

It was a strange signing.

Considering he was one of Amorim's former players...I expected a lot more.

He still should have played tonight though

 

[bgoodall]

Biggest game of the season, doesn't play a minute.

It was a strange signing.

Unpopular opinion but I like him. He plays aggressively in defensive which does lead to some cards BUT we need that intensity to win the ball back and he’s pretty decent at it. Think he’ll come good in his second season with us.

 

[Isotope]

It's obvious that Amorim doesn't really rate him, and would prefer a DM on Casemiro's mould.

 

[kouroux]

Considering he was one of Amorim's former players...I expected a lot more.

He still should have played tonight though

I really expected to see him at half time

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It's obvious that Amorim doesn't really rate him, and would prefer a DM on Casemiro's mould.

Isn’t he Amorim’s player? I thought we signed partly him due to his success at Sporting under Amorim.

I find it bizarre how a club that hasn’t understood how to control football matches is still signing players with major flaws on the ball. We leant nothing after the AWB signing.

I said when Ineos joined that every signing henceforth needs to be capable of playing possession footy as that’s the only way to raise our standard in this area we are so poor in.

 

[kouroux]

Isn’t he Amorim’s player? I thought we signed partly him due to his success at Sporting under Amorim.

I find it bizarre how a club that hasn’t understood how to control football matches is still signing players with major flaws on the ball. We leant nothing after the AWB signing.

I said when Ineos joined that every signing henceforth needs to be capable of playing possession footy as that’s the only way to raise our standard in this area we are so poor in.

For lots of money. Somewhere, someone is laughing all the way to the bank

 

[Isotope]

Isn’t he Amorim’s player? I thought we signed partly him due to his success at Sporting under Amorim.

I find it bizarre how a club that hasn’t understood how to control football matches is still signing players with major flaws on the ball. We leant nothing after the AWB signing.

I said when Ineos joined that every signing henceforth needs to be capable of playing possession footy as that’s the only way to raise our standard in this area we are so poor in.

That's what I heard. But most likely he just isn't able to make that step up.

I think Ineos also has the same view as yours on raising the skill level. Majority of last Summer's signings were pretty skillful players.

But yeah. They're skillful but not high enough to compensate for their shortcoming. In Ugarte, he's pretty skillful, but lack in footballing brain.

 

[Oscar Bonavena]

Isn’t he Amorim’s player? I thought we signed partly him due to his success at Sporting under Amorim.

I find it bizarre how a club that hasn’t understood how to control football matches is still signing players with major flaws on the ball. We leant nothing after the AWB signing.

I said when Ineos joined that every signing henceforth needs to be capable of playing possession footy as that’s the only way to raise our standard in this area we are so poor in.

He was signed while ten Hag was manager. I don't think ten Hag wanted him and ineos may have signed him with one eye on bringing in Amorim, who knows.

I can see why he wasn't brought on though. Spurs were in a low block and just letting us have the ball, knowing we weren't gonna break them down. Bringing on Ugarte was not gonna have any impact at that stage, he's not gonna unlock a defence.

If he was going to play, it had to be from the start, to bring some physicality to the United midfield in the first half and free up Bruno to play in the 10.

 

[FerociousCorgis]

He was signed while ten Hag was manager. I don't think ten Hag wanted him and ineos may have signed him with one eye on bringing in Amorim, who knows.

I can see why he wasn't brought on though. Spurs were in a low block and just letting us have the ball, knowing we weren't gonna break them down. Bringing on Ugarte was not gonna have any impact at that stage, he's not gonna unlock a defence.

If he was going to play, it had to be from the start, to bring some physicality to the United midfield in the first half and free up Bruno to play in the 10.

Only thing could've been maybe take a cb off, drop Casemiro back there knowing he isn't gonna do any actual defending, and then have ugarte free Bruno up to move forward as casemiro steps up whenever we have the ball.

Would've been a complete change of formation though. Honestly the subs that were made just needed to be made at 60 minutes not 70 minutes. They were the obvious subs and nowhere near soon enough

 

[OT_United]

He’s an Athletico Madrid player if I’ve ever seen one. Surely with his age we can get 30m?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

He was signed while ten Hag was manager. I don't think ten Hag wanted him and ineos may have signed him with one eye on bringing in Amorim, who knows.

I know but wasn’t in the summer we hired Amorim? Signing his main CDM at Sporting felt like it had to be part of some plan.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I think Ineos also has the same view as yours on raising the skill level. Majority of last Summer's signings were pretty skillful players.

But yeah. They're skillful but not high enough to compensate for their shortcoming. In Ugarte, he's pretty skillful, but lack in footballing brain.

I’m not sure if either Ugarte (clearly a weak passer) or Dorgu (early days but doesn’t seem great on the ball) feel like they fall into that bucket. With Zirkzee being skilful but a non goal scoring striker, I’m not sure what their vision exactly is. Other than 20-50m range players.

 

[Dannn411]

Hopefully our next manager is someone who plays a midfield 3. That is where he will be most useful. Where he has only the responsibility of shielding the defence.

 

[0le]

He is an okay player. He does have his uses. If we need to sell him, there will definitely be suitors. So im not worried either way. But he will never be starting 11 material. Personally I’d keep him as a squad option.

 

[devilish]

Hopefully our next manager is someone who plays a midfield 3. That is where he will be most useful. Where he has only the responsibility of shielding the defence.

If his former manager doesn't rate him enough to start him in a final...

 

[kouroux]

Only thing could've been maybe take a cb off, drop Casemiro back there knowing he isn't gonna do any actual defending, and then have ugarte free Bruno up to move forward as casemiro steps up whenever we have the ball.

Would've been a complete change of formation though. Honestly the subs that were made just needed to be made at 60 minutes not 70 minutes. They were the obvious subs and nowhere near soon enough

Which we know is complete blasphemy for Amorim.

 

[Dannn411]

If his former manager doesn't rate him enough to start him in a final...

His former manager is a disaster. I do not trust any decision he has made.

 

[Leftback99]

Terrible signing, wouldn't have changed a thing last night.

 

[Lash]

Considering zero football was being played and our midfield was just getting kicked to shit all game, I'm shocked he didn't play a minute.

 

[FrankDrebin]

God he has been utterly underwhelming.