Nah I'd massively disagree with that. Fred and Herrera were both class on their day - and McT, as well as literally has won us games by himself before, had those odd games in CM where he was an absolute monster (usually against Leeds)
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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 45
- Goals
- 2
- Assists
- 6
- Yellow cards
- 14
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Nik (@Rood), Jamie (@Vault Dweller) and Ed (@That'sHernandez) give their end of season awards out! They celebrate the best players, goals and moments of the season (there were some, honestly) and also give out awards for the worst and most disappointing players/moments of the season.
They then discuss all the latest transfer rumours and get into the potential ins and outs this summer at Old Trafford.
Nah I'd massively disagree with that. Fred and Herrera were both class on their day - and McT, as well as literally has won us games by himself before, had those odd games in CM where he was an absolute monster (usually against Leeds)
Surely every club would be dying for him then? Or maybe only the most incompetent recruitment teams like United and PSG one of which binned him after one season and the other didn't let him sniff the grass in the most important game of the season. His defensive attrivutes are so overrated, running around like a head chicken getting run past on most occasion and committing fouls every 5 min
He doesn't even run around that much. He's quite stationary really and he looks terrified whenever he gets the ball.
Its like I'm watching Morgan Schneiderlin all-over again.
Its like I'm watching Morgan Schneiderlin all-over again.
I wasn't being role specific, they all play in a similar area though.
Every team can do with having a Gattuso or de jong style midfield enforcer, we just need a complimentary creator next to him with some composure, I dont think Ugarte is the problem child here.
It was known that PSG were letting him go for his deficiencies on the ball. Then we just went ahead and put out 50m for him.
Would you like to swap Ugarte with Douglas Luiz and Alisha Lehmann(Juve) ?
Douglas Luiz is a much better player than Ugarte. Alisha Lehmann wouldn't make our bench.
I didn't make any of that up. Ugarte cost 50m and he was subbed off around 60 minutes quite often this season.
He literally loses half of his duels. Just because he runs around and gets into a bunch of defensive actions doesn't make him a top "destroyer" if he's losing out a bunch as well, it just makes him Fred without any of the progression.
Name such an enforcer with Ugarte's ball playing limitations at Liverpool, Arsenal, Man City, Liverpool, or Newcastle.
We are the only club/fan base that keeps believing a midfielder with deep flaws should be in the team while we go searching the corners of the earth looking for another midfielder to complement or unlock him. The problem is we usually get another midfielder with deep flaws in another aspect to unlock the first midfielder.
In modern football any midfielder with major flaws in the physical or technical aspects of the game is a liability. There is base level of physical and technical ability below which a top midfielder should not go and Ugarte is below that level in the technical aspect of the game.
Mind you this is a fan base that saw the work of Carrick and Scholes yet somehow they continue to underrate the importance of passing ability and reading the game. My heart sunk when i saw us get linked with Ugarte, saw his passing stats and was upset.
Same fanbase is used to a plethora of fantastic strikers, yet continually make excuses for Hojlund and cream pants over Delap.
PSG also wrong as well right
His duels won are at 0.52. Caicedo who the likes of you would gladly praise as a top DM is at 0.58. That alone should tell anyone serious he is in the top tier at his job.
Well PSG don't play 3-4-3 with wing backs based around a physically combative midfield. They play a ball dominant 4-3-3 with a rotating midfield and ball hogging possession. No destroyer was ever going to work for their style. If United were playing THEIR style I'd get were these inane criticisms of Ugarte are stemming from.
Its like some of you literally gotten amnesia of the likes of Eriksen and Mainoo who have the extra technical prowess instead of Ugarte's type of physical gifts, THIS past horror season drowning in the formation in the central two. That even old UNC Casemiro and a 10 like Bruno were better fits there than them.
You do realise Amorim wants to play a ball dominant game right? You do also realise that its not an either or, especially in midfield between being good technically and having good physical traits
Its the likes of me that have gotten amnesia when UNC Casemiro and the likes of Bruno have left Ugarte benched in our biggest games of late because they both are technically better than Ugarte with the ball
Better at some things, sure. Worse at others, also yes. I would prefer to start Ugarte in the PL 9/10 ahead of Casemiro as he struggles majorly with the intensity these days. In Europe and easier domestic games, Casemiro is the better choice due to his goal threat and wider range of passing.
I expect you know what a destroyer or ball winning midfielder is. Palhinha is a similar example of such a player who also played under Amorim and excelled. Amorim clearly has used this type of midfielder well in the past, which is why I'm surprised he hasn't got Ugarte firing yet.
Ugarte needs to improve his composure and press resistance going into next season, and I hope we finally start to see the best of him. We as a fan base are quick to write off players thrown into this bin fire of a club, but I think he's got a good chance of becoming a success in the PL.
It is quite irritating. There are countless midfielders out there who have both good physical and technical traits. Newcastle and Liverpool were able to get a whole bunch of them, but United fans are focused on this stupid idea that it is okay to buy a player who is all aggression and little/no technique as long as you can pair him with another midfielder who is all technique but little/no physicality.
What in idiot theory should be a complementary midfield partnership ends up in reality being 2 midfield liabilities. Every single outfield player should be able to hold his own in both technical and physical aspects of the game.
Palhinha is substantially better than Ugarte. Palhinha was also quite limited but played the game to his strengths he had a better understanding of what he’s capable of more than Ugarte. Palhinha had that power strength in his legs and also had longer legs which helps him a lot in his technique to scoop the ball from defenders. Ugarte will go into every duel possible with horrible technique with a lot of the time getting skinned, or fouling. Ugarte is also literally scared of the ball as we saw with West Ham’s 2nd goal.
Someone can possibly double check and Amorim had his best seasons after Ugarte was sold with the purchase of Hjulmand (and before with Palhinha)
Furthermore those things can’t be improved to a decent standard, it’s the player he’s been for 23 years it’s not something he’ll learn now. It’s like saying Maguire needs to learn how to run quicker. Yes we are a fanbase quick to write off players because most the ones we sign are crap. I wrote off Sancho after his debut v Leeds and I didn’t bother giving Antony a chance - sometimes it doesn’t require more than a half of football to know if someone’s terrible
Mate it blows my mind it’s a United fan thing where specialist shin kickers get praised to the heavens. Lisandro is good but I think he’s overrated because he’s rash and goes to ground a lot which is for some reason what United fans love
Well said.
I think this desire for a "destroyer" originated when Keano retired and people didn't take a shine to Carrick's finesse in playing the holding role. Then Kante did terrifically well for Leicester and Chelsea and the desire grew many folds. Even though players with the skills and engine like Kante are an exception and football isn't blessed with them on a regular basis.
But I thought you didn’t rate Caicedo ?
You should see the problem with what you're saying via the players you've mentioned. They were plying their trade 16 years ago where a specialised destroyer who couldn't really play, but could palm the ball off to those that could, was perfectly normal and incorporated into the infrastructure of both the midfield as a unit, but also the team as a whole. Such players and such ways of setting up teams are so niche as to hardly exist now. You certainly don't bring players in knowing they can't play football anymore as you're just delimiting yourself straight out of the gate, which is why so many have a particular annoyance at the notion of bringing in such a player whilst the team we got him from actively sought the polar opposite.
Whatever you think about the viability of getting Joao Neves instead (we didn't stand a chance against PSG's financial package) of Ugarte, it's the principle and what both stand for that has gotten under the skin of those opposed to what Ugarte represents. One player is the embodiment of control, composure, progression, skill, perpetual movement and constructive play, the other is the antithesis of this. One player just needs competent teammates around him who can also play football, and you immediately introduce complex interplay and problem solving on the offensive end as well as perpetual probing because using the ball is an intrinsic principle for them. The other requires teammates to play football for them because they struggle badly with that aspect of the game. The Joao Neves types are what nearly all of this clubs' success is founded upon and our greatest midfielders all have far, far, far more in common with that way of playing than they do with Ugarte's. Edwards, Crerand, Robson, Keane, Ince, Carrick (just using those expected to destroy and then progress) are what this club is accustomed to - all of them exceptional, rapid progressors of the ball upfield without pause or hesitation. Ugarte might better be compared to someone like Nobby Stiles, but even then, Stiles was an exceptionally gifted ball-winner and destroyer with a sixth sense for sniffing out and destroying danger that Ugarte does not have, which offset his lesser ability with the ball.
As above, a big problem for Ugarte is that he is not good enough at being a destroyer to forgo football playing principles for. If you did indeed have an elite destroyer or interrupter of opponents out there: a Kante, Makelele, Davids or even a Gattuso, or considerably lower, a Nigel de Jong, you could somewhat understand it in the case of even de Jong, whilst being onboard with a Gattuso (possibly), the first three being infinitely better actual footballers than Ugarte before even factoring in their superior defensive work. So not only is he supbar at what he's supposed to be good at, he is some way below the bar as an actual footballer. It is very problematic because the reasons to facilitate his game aren't really worth it. He is a square where a circle should be, which is why he got bounced out of PSG in favour of a circular peg that slotted in so well that PSG have arguably the best midfield in Europe this season.
The type of player Ugarte is was actively sought after in the 00's and he can be looked at differently through that kind of lens, but you really don't see many teams using this kind of player anymore. If you think of it another way, if Ugarte wasn't here, which of the CL-placed English clubs do you think he'd see first team action for? Or even, who would be in for him? Liverpool? City? Arsenal? Chelsea? even Newcastle would have no use for him. All of those sides have infinitely superior progressors of the ball and none use a player who needs to be catered to because he's a specialist who struggles at the footballing aspects of the game.
Unless he develops considerably as a footballer, he's a really bad buy that we've saddled ourselves with and will have to upgrade upon at the earliest opportunity.
I rather don't rate him as worth 100m pounds. Literally nothing to do with rating or not rating his ability as a player. No one has ever heard me rubbish his ability and they never will.
People on here keep making way too big a deal of Ugarte not starting vs Spurs. It wasn't a game his profile was needed for.
We needed to attack spurs whilst able to cope with them physically. Not mainly win the ball off them.
As for Amorim desiring ball dominant ball. Amorim achieves it by having a properly profiled midfield.
That includes a destroyer like Ugarte. Whose strengths lie in both boxes are off the ball and short passes
A mostly offensive orriented 8 like Bruno who can hold his own physically.
A hybrid defensive midfielder like Casemiro who is as attacked minded as his ability to win the ball. A more offensive passer than the destroyer.
Last a proper deep lying robust defensive midfield playmaker like Tonali.
Not 2 "Scholes and Carrick duo" types whose main strength is technical.
For as a tactician he knows there are games he will need to the ability to specialize in suffering without the ball and being very conservative with it vs given opponents. Especially because he operates with 2 dedicated midfielders at all times.
That is why I hold the position the criticism of Ugarte's skill set are both ridiculous and frivolous. A first class scape goating agenda if there ever was one. For United's real problems are we don't have the other two types of midfielders needed inclusive of him outside of Bruno for the long term. Same way we lack two top quality pacey ball carrying 10s in our attack line.
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Ah ok fair enough then.
Here is the thing though Kante's ability on the ball is underrated. His ball carrying ability after winning the ball was world class, with some decent passing ability. Thats what set Kante apart from guys like Ndidi. Win the ball but also be useful in transition from defence to attack.
Cheers
That is a mental take. Ugarte is nowhere near as good as Matic. Makes me think you never watched Matic play. Even at the end of his time in a United shirt he was vastly superior with the ball. Matic was never a destroyer.
I’d take the others you listed over Ugarte, as well. I don’t think he’s as limited as some view him here, but he like everyone else in this team is playing in an uncomfortable system. He reminds me of Herrera, a player I loved, but he doesn’t have much composure on the ball. He has had moments even in this shitty team where he’s played some nice long vertical passes.
We probably overpaid for him which also colors people’s perception. But in this side with Casemiro slowing down and any of our skill merchants needing an extra beat, I think Ugarte has been useful.
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Like almost all the players in the squad currently, he's not being used right and that's something Amorim needs to figure urgently.
Ugarte is very capable in winning back possession and creating turnovers high up the pitch. Those are his very clear positives and it should not be very tough for a manager to get the best out of him. Especially one that knows him that well
Ugarte is very capable in winning back possession and creating turnovers high up the pitch. Those are his very clear positives and it should not be very tough for a manager to get the best out of him. Especially one that knows him that well
He should be used high up the pitch, but even in the optimal formation for him, he takes away from the position because someone like Mount (or Fred) is then supposed to go there. So figuring out what's best for Ugarte doesn't meld with what may be best for the team as a whole.
Buy him for 50M, and then we dont play him in the biggest match of the season because he's limited. Gee who would have saw that coming
It’s like Fellaini all over again only with none of the shadow striker benefits.
I find strange the hard on to slate Ugarte that some on here have? What the hell are you expecting from the guy? To be a CM for Bruno and Mount? We have no partner for him except maybe try and mould Mainoo into one since I don't think Casemiro should be here by August.
Ugarte is basically the only CM that we have with some sense of how to play the role and you have people on here criticizing him for no being Roy Keane or what?
Ugarte is basically the only CM that we have with some sense of how to play the role and you have people on here criticizing him for no being Roy Keane or what?
I thought he was going to be better/calmer on the ball than he is. Maybe season 2 is his breakout season.
Isn't part of Rubens lore that he sold off 25 some odd players in his first year? Was Ugarte one of them? What's that about?
He is being criticised for being poor on the ball.
It's a signing that had its pitfalls from the outset for me, but you still hope for the best.
Let's hope there's a leap with a full preseason and adjustment to the league behind him.
Casemiro has comfortably outshone him on both sides of the ball for months. There's a reason why he started the final and Ugarte did not.
Ugarte is clearly not comfortable in deep midfield, so no, your conclusion doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
The PL and high level European games are too demanding for his skill set if he's in deep midfield, imo, but we'll see how things go in the upcoming season.
When we eventually get rid of Casemiro which midfielder do you think we should target to bring to our club?