[Fortitude]

When we eventually get rid of Casemiro which midfielder do you think we should target to bring to our club?

My pipe dream is Wharton because he is an effortless progressor of the ball, is aggressive and positionally aware plus he’s young enough to develop considerably under the right tutelage. Baleba, also.

There’s probably some gems in Ligue 1 I know nothing about that could come in and dominate the league .

 

[Bondi77]

My pipe dream is Wharton because he is an effortless progressor of the ball, is aggressive and positionally aware plus he’s young enough to develop considerably under the right tutelage. Baleba, also.

There’s probably some gems in Ligue 1 I know nothing about that could come in and dominate the league .

He does remind me of a young Matic.
Hopefully our scouting team have identified someone to come in and do a job.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I find strange the hard on to slate Ugarte that some on here have? What the hell are you expecting from the guy? To be a CM for Bruno and Mount? We have no partner for him except maybe try and mould Mainoo into one since I don't think Casemiro should be here by August.

Ugarte is basically the only CM that we have with some sense of how to play the role and you have people on here criticizing him for no being Roy Keane or what?

You leave these unserious people. These are the same ones arguing 'PSG this PSG that" . Yet if our first team midfield was Vitinha, Neves, Zaire-Emery, Mayulu and Fabian Ruiz the'd by the same on here crying about lack of physicality, pace and being overrun in the epl in the 3-4-3 we currently use "due to over reliance on technique".....

 

[Adisa]

We have to sign better ball playing players going forward. This flaw was flagged before we signed him. We can’t keep doing this.

Hope he has a much better second season.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

That is a mental take. Ugarte is nowhere near as good as Matic. Makes me think you never watched Matic play. Even at the end of his time in a United shirt he was vastly superior with the ball. Matic was never a destroyer.

I’d take the others you listed over Ugarte, as well. I don’t think he’s as limited as some view him here, but he like everyone else in this team is playing in an uncomfortable system. He reminds me of Herrera, a player I loved, but he doesn’t have much composure on the ball. He has had moments even in this shitty team where he’s played some nice long vertical passes.

We probably overpaid for him which also colors people’s perception. But in this side with Casemiro slowing down and any of our skill merchants needing an extra beat, I think Ugarte has been useful.

Calm yourself down, I agree Matic was better.

 

[OleGunnar20]

Palhinha is substantially better than Ugarte. Palhinha was also quite limited but played the game to his strengths he had a better understanding of what he’s capable of more than Ugarte. Palhinha had that power strength in his legs and also had longer legs which helps him a lot in his technique to scoop the ball from defenders. Ugarte will go into every duel possible with horrible technique with a lot of the time getting skinned, or fouling. Ugarte is also literally scared of the ball as we saw with West Ham’s 2nd goal.

Someone can possibly double check and Amorim had his best seasons after Ugarte was sold with the purchase of Hjulmand (and before with Palhinha)

Furthermore those things can’t be improved to a decent standard, it’s the player he’s been for 23 years it’s not something he’ll learn now. It’s like saying Maguire needs to learn how to run quicker. Yes we are a fanbase quick to write off players because most the ones we sign are crap. I wrote off Sancho after his debut v Leeds and I didn’t bother giving Antony a chance - sometimes it doesn’t require more than a half of football to know if

Palhinha was a better player, agreed. That doesn't mean Ugarte can't become a useful player for us.

I also don't agree that he can't improve his composure and ball progression, it's largely a mental thing. He's a better footballer technically than people give him credit for but doesn't protect the ball and calmly move it on well enough. This is very different to telling Maguire to run faster.

 

[Kostov]

Casemiro has comfortably outshone him on both sides of the ball for months. There's a reason why he started the final and Ugarte did not.

Ugarte is clearly not comfortable in deep midfield, so no, your conclusion doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Casemiro has been a breath of fresh air and in pair with Ugarte couple of times, but let's not overlook the fact that he has been fortunate to be picked for certain types of games and games in which we were also very very bad, but managed to somehow get a result (Lyon for example) mainly in the Europa league and clouding people's judgement. He has also been complete crap in the PL just like everyone else, with IMO Ugarte being better albeit in a different role. And no there was no sensible reason to not start both of them in the final, just like there was no sensible reason for Mount to start over him or Garnacho, but here we are, losing a final to Spurs.

 

[Leftback99]

Berge was the better option last summer as some of us said. I hope the club and the fans don't fall for buying the bigger name this summer. Not that we can afford more such mistakes.

 

[Cassidy]

People on here keep making way too big a deal of Ugarte not starting vs Spurs. It wasn't a game his profile was needed for.
We needed to attack spurs whilst able to cope with them physically. Not mainly win the ball off them.

As for Amorim desiring ball dominant ball. Amorim achieves it by having a properly profiled midfield.
That includes a destroyer like Ugarte. Whose strengths lie in both boxes are off the ball and short passes

A mostly offensive orriented 8 like Bruno who can hold his own physically.

A hybrid defensive midfielder like Casemiro who is as attacked minded as his ability to win the ball. A more offensive passer than the destroyer.

Last a proper deep lying robust defensive midfield playmaker like Tonali.

Not 2 "Scholes and Carrick duo" types whose main strength is technical.

For as a tactician he knows there are games he will need to the ability to specialize in suffering without the ball and being very conservative with it vs given opponents. Especially because he operates with 2 dedicated midfielders at all times.

That is why I hold the position the criticism of Ugarte's skill set are both ridiculous and frivolous. A first class scape goating agenda if there ever was one. For United's real problems are we don't have the other two types of midfielders needed inclusive of him outside of Bruno for the long term. Same way we lack two top quality pacey ball carrying 10s in our attack line.

Please show me where I said we need 2 Scholes / Carrick types?

You do realise that Casemiro who fits the profile of what Amorim wants more than Ugarte except for the fact his legs have gone right?

You named 3 profiles of midfielders that Amorim wants Ugarte fits none of them.

He replaced Ugarte at Sporting with players who were better than him technically

Yes we need a robust defensive midfielder / ball winner. No we don’t need one that does not offer progressive passing and ability on the ball. Its a simple concept.

If Casemiro is properly replaced (he needs to be) then Ugarte will be nothing more than a squad player next season.

Also Carrick was not just a passer /technician but we don’t even need to get into that

 

[DWelbz19]

You leave these unserious people. These are the same ones arguing 'PSG this PSG that" . Yet if our first team midfield was Vitinha, Neves, Zaire-Emery, Mayulu and Fabian Ruiz the'd by the same on here crying about lack of physicality, pace and being overrun in the epl in the 3-4-3 we currently use "due to over reliance on technique".....

But Ugarte doesn’t help with physicality or pace. He’s not particularly quick or strong. He’s poor under pressure. He regularly gets substituted at the 60-70th minute mark of matches he starts.

Ugarte is a flawed player who is ridiculously high percentile in interceptions and tackles when you let him off the leash but flawed in pretty much everything else.

I don’t know why that’s so controversial to state.

 

[Mcking]

Not his biggest fan. Not even sure what we do with him now. Knew he was going to become a problem.

 

[Fortitude]

Casemiro has been a breath of fresh air and in pair with Ugarte couple of times, but let's not overlook the fact that he has been fortunate to be picked for certain types of games and games in which we were also very very bad, but managed to somehow get a result (Lyon for example) mainly in the Europa league and clouding people's judgement. He has also been complete crap in the PL just like everyone else, with IMO Ugarte being better albeit in a different role. And no there was no sensible reason to not start both of them in the final, just like there was no sensible reason for Mount to start over him or Garnacho, but here we are, losing a final to Spurs.

I spend most of my time in here bemoaning the purchase, but I sincerely hope he can turn it around. For me, he shouldn’t have been bought because we don’t facilitate his game and that means he adapts or sinks, but it makes little sense to me to buy a player and then put him through the ringer performing tasks he’s not suited to.

The reason he wasn’t fielded in the final is because of his ability on the ball; in deep midfield you cannot be worrying about your own players’ ability to handle the ball.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

.....
He replaced Ugarte at Sporting with players who were better than him technically

.....

This is the type of revisionist history in here I often find disingenuous and truly laughable. Ugarte was a key player for him who granted him funds to improve the depth of the team further when time to sell him on due his outstanding performances arose. This idea he was ever purposely traded in for upgrades is utterly delusional.

 

[Kostov]

You leave these unserious people. These are the same ones arguing 'PSG this PSG that" . Yet if our first team midfield was Vitinha, Neves, Zaire-Emery, Mayulu and Fabian Ruiz the'd by the same on here crying about lack of physicality, pace and being overrun in the epl in the 3-4-3 we currently use "due to over reliance on technique"....

3-4-3 is hopeless.

I spend most of my time in here bemoaning the purchase, but I sincerely hope he can turn it around. For me, he shouldn’t have been bought because we don’t facilitate his game and that means he adapts or sinks, but it makes little sense to me to buy a player and then put him through the ringer performing tasks he’s not suited to.

The reason he wasn’t fielded in the final is because of his ability on the ball; in deep midfield you cannot be worrying about your own players’ ability to handle the ball.

His ability on the ball is fine fir the role he is supposed to be doing, he was omitted from the final because Amorim is incompetent.

Mount started instead, is he good enough as a 10 with his ability on the ball?

 

[Cassidy]

This is the type of revisionist history in here I often find disingenuous and truly laughable. Ugarte was a key player for him who granted him funds to improve the depth of the team further when time to sell him on due his outstanding performances arose. This idea he was ever purposely traded in for upgrades is utterly delusional.

Where did I say he was purposely traded? You are just making things up to get offended by.

If you do not understand the evolution of that Sporting side going from underdogs onto becoming the most doninant side in their division and how the midfield evolved as part of that, that is on you.

Fact Ugartes replacement was more technical than he was. Ugarte did well at Sporting coming through the system but he played in a less dominant Sporting side than the Sporting side that won the last 2 titles and thats partly because Sporting put together a better midfield after he left.

PSG just put together the one of the most dominant midfields which actually does not lack ball winning and physicality (Neves and Ruiz) after Ugarte left. Neves was a big improvements because he could do everything Ugarte could better and has ability with the ball.

Ugarte is a decent player who we hope improves next season. The plan at United is to dominate 70% of the teams in the league and that requires 2 technical CMs that does not mean they do not require ball winning skills or physicality and athleticism. What top side does not have that? Both are prerequisites.

Ugarte will be a squad player for this reason. He will be useful in games where we don’t expect to be dominant but that is not most games. This is why in reality top sides don’t buy players who only excel off the ball, its the same reason Villa made a mistake signing Onana and he hardly gets games there. Kamara is as good as him off the ball but miles better on it

Just shows you in your post gave 3 profiles of midfield player and Ugarte does not actually match any of them yet here we are

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Where did I say he was purposely traded?
....

bruv you don't post in Greek. What you meant by this below was obvious.

He replaced Ugarte at Sporting with players who were better than him technically..

Furthemore. If you can't comprehend why PSG 4-3-3 set up with small technical players working physically in it isn't remotely applicable to Amorim's 3-4-3 set up. There is literally nothing further to discuss.
Because by now the difference in how Mainoo for example shone in midfield both
in ETHs and England's 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 set ups and how he has faired in Amorim 3-4-3 taught you nothing. So we will never reach any sort of understanding on this matter so we can respectfully agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Cassidy]

bruv you don't post in Greek. What you meant by this below was obvious.

Don’t call me bruv.

He was replaced by players who were more technical this is a fact.

No where did I say they purposely traded him and so no what I meant by it was not obvious because you clearly miss-understood.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Don’t call me bruv.

He was replaced by players who were more technical this is a fact.

No where did I say they purposely traded him and so no what I meant by it was not obvious because you clearly miss-understood.

Stop posting in Greek ffs

 

[Cassidy]

Stop posting in Greek ffs

Bruv hahaha

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Don’t call me bruv.

He was replaced by players who were more technical this is a fact.

No where did I say they purposely traded him and so no what I meant by it was not obvious because you clearly miss-understood.

I certainly did not misunderstand it all. You are the same person trying to pedal the narrative Amorim allegedly 'evolved his set up" post Ugarte. Meaning clearly you feel he was sold because Amorim classed him as inferior to what arrived after.

 

[Cassidy]

I certainly did not misunderstand it all. You are the same person trying to pedal the narrative Amorim allegedly 'evolved his set up" post Ugarte. Meaning clearly you feel he was sold because Amorim classed him as inferior to what arrived after.

You should probably stop telling other people what they are trying to say. Will help you have more constructive conversations.

Amorim did evolve his setup all managers do. I already said what I meant

Back on topic. Ugarte only has half the tools we need in the midfield. Casemiro doesn’t have the legs. We need a new midfielder and probably 2

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

You should probably stop telling other people what they are trying to say. Will help you have more constructive conversations.

Amorim did evolve his setup all managers do. I already said what I meant

Back on topic. Ugarte only has half the tools we need in the midfield. Casemiro doesn’t have the legs. We need a new midfielder and probably 2

The basis for my arguments is quite simple. The center midfield department before Ugarte left consisted of the profiles I talked of earlier: Ugarte( Specialist destroyer), Palinha(Attack minded DM), Matheus Nunes (physical Attacking 8), Daniel Braganca and teenager Essuego (DLPM). All bar Braganca have been sought for and acquired by the biggest clubs in European football since that time.

If indeed Amorim allegedly 'evolved his set up" post them paired together most of their successors would be hot property up and down the continent. The fact they are not, even after two titles on the spin, is all one needs to know about this 'evolved setup narrative".

Right nowcUnited simply have not finished populating the midfield department in the way Amorim desires his teams midfield department to be. All this talk of "he evolved his set up past the likes of Ugarte" is pure fantasy land. Ugarte is simply a piece of the jigsaw. Not some growing problem that requires discarding.


Make no mistake about it. If Amorim felt his set up "had evolved past him" Ugarte would be on the transfer list right now.

 

[Cassidy]

, Palinha(Attack minded DM), Matheus Nunes (physical Attacking 8),

You have your profiles a bit wrong wrong here

Hjulmand will end up at a top club. Morita who they signed when Ugarte left is technically better than Ugarte.

But overall the point is we need a DM who is better technically than Ugarte this summer to replace Casemiro and Ugarte should largely be a bench player. We probably also need a new 8 too

Also the point was if we had signed the DM who was technically better last summer we would have been in a better position now. Since Casemiro was not supposed to have been relied upon this season as we knew his legs were gone

 

[jem]

Buy him for 50M, and then we dont play him in the biggest match of the season because he's limited. Gee who would have saw that coming

I wonder whether Amorim wasn’t nonplussed with Ugarte after that moment a few games back (can’t remember the opponent) when he lost the ball and showed zero urgency getting up and tracking back.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

Calm yourself down, I agree Matic was better.

You probably shouldn't say Ugarte was better than Matic at his best, then.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

You probably shouldn't say Ugarte was better than Matic at his best, then.

I will continue to not say that indeed.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

They all had runs as poor as Ugarte's worst and I'd say only Matic in his first season was as good as Ugarte at his best.

He absolutely needs to find his form again and hopefully quickly but he's a decent player.

I will continue to not say that indeed.

This is what you said. Literally, you're saying only when Matic was at his peak was he as good as Ugarte, and all the others listed were inferior. Those are your words, not mine.

Look, I get it: you're embarrassed. I would be too.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

This is what you said. Literally, you're saying only when Matic was at his peak was he as good as Ugarte, and all the others listed were inferior. Those are your words, not mine.

Look, I get it: you're embarrassed. I would be too.

No I was saying that Ugarte's best run of form surpassed Fred, Mctominay and whoever else was mentioned. Only Matic was as good as it, and yes even better until his legs went (maybe if I'd added that it would have saved you writing paragraphs about Matic).

Matic was also even better for Chelsea too if that makes you happy?

You're just being really weird and emotionally invested in Namanja Matic.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

No I was saying that Ugarte's best run of form surpassed Fred, Mctominay and whoever else was mentioned. Only Matic was as good as it, and yes even better until his legs went (maybe if I'd added that it would have saved you writing paragraphs about Matic).

Matic was also even better for Chelsea too if that makes you happy?

You're just being really weird and emotionally invested in Namanja Matic.

Ugarte has never been better than Matic, nor even Fred. McTominay is about equal on the ball but more of a goal threat than Ugarte.

It's hard to take seriously someone who thinks Ugarte is the best midfielder out of that bunch.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Ugarte has never been better than Matic, nor even Fred. McTominay is about equal on the ball but more of a goal threat than Ugarte.

It's hard to take seriously someone who thinks Ugarte is the best midfielder out of that bunch.

It's hard to speak seriously with someone who can't post without insulting someone.

I'd suggest we both stop trying to do something we seem to be struggling with

 

[Malone_Post]

Watching the game tonight you can see why Enrique was so quick to bin him off.

They’re virtually playing a different sport to the one Ugarte plays.

 

[FootyGirl88]

Watching the game tonight you can see why Enrique was so quick to bin him off.

They’re virtually playing a different sport to the one Ugarte plays.

And if we've got any sense we should do the same

 

[Malone_Post]

And if we've got any sense we should do the same

Agreed.

 

[Matt851]

But Ugarte doesn’t help with physicality or pace. He’s not particularly quick or strong. He’s poor under pressure. He regularly gets substituted at the 60-70th minute mark of matches he starts.

Ugarte is a flawed player who is ridiculously high percentile in interceptions and tackles when you let him off the leash but flawed in pretty much everything else.

I don’t know why that’s so controversial to state.

He is a dehydrated paulinha

 

[Based Adnan]

Watching the game tonight you can see why Enrique was so quick to bin him off.

They’re virtually playing a different sport to the one Ugarte plays.

Shin kickers aren't required to win the midfield battle, who would have known

 

[Ezkay]

Watching the game tonight you can see why Enrique was so quick to bin him off.

They’re virtually playing a different sport to the one Ugarte plays.

Yeah but…he’s a specialist destroyer.

Whatever that means.

Just a terrible limited footballer who needs to be sold this summer

 

[BAMSOLA]

I don’t understand the narrative that players need time to settle, a large majority of players you can see their ability in the first few weeks. He plays exactly like he did at PSG and Lisbon, just a player who kicks shins.

If they threw me in the league does that mean I deserve to get another season to settle - no, sometimes players are just so out of their depth.

Seems like PSG didn’t give him time to settle and made the UCL final the following season.

It's something a lot of players themselves and coaches have spoken about in regards to the relative speed differences between the EPL and other leagues. Time will tell but for example I've so far little of the decent ball carrying ability/press resistance he had at Sporting. Sometimes it just takes time.

 

[Ekeke]

Watching the game tonight you can see why Enrique was so quick to bin him off.

They’re virtually playing a different sport to the one Ugarte plays.

When you invest the amount psg do on midfielders you better

Not being good enough for the psg or barcelona midfield is like... Well Fabregas wasnt considered good enough

 

[Stadjer]

And if we've got any sense we should do the same

Only if we get new midfielders of the same quality as PSG have

 

[Ezkay]

It's something a lot of players themselves and coaches have spoken about in regards to the relative speed differences between the EPL and other leagues. Time will tell but for example I've so far little of the decent ball carrying ability/press resistance he had at Sporting. Sometimes it just takes time.

I get that, there’s obviously an adaptation period but players need to show their ability. Ugarte is playing exactly how he did in Ligue 1 and Sporting, just a super limited shin kicker