Whilst at sporting he was being thought of as one of Europe's best up and coming defensive CM'S before moving PSG and somewhat losing his way in a team that had no real requirement for the type of cm he is.
25
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 45
- Goals
- 2
- Assists
- 6
- Yellow cards
- 14
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Whilst at sporting he was being thought of as one of Europe's best up and coming defensive CM'S before moving PSG and somewhat losing his way in a team that had no real requirement for the type of cm he is.
He’s not good enough for the team that just finished 15th in the PL, never mind the likes of PSG or Barcelona.
As for mentioning him in the same breath as Fabregas…that’s wild
Not a fan of his signing, or even how he plays, but why are people moaning about him based on a game he didn’t even play?
I fail to see how
They both have won two straight titles. STILL none of them are threatening to be picked up by top clubs. Yet the entire midfield department Ugarte played with (him plus Palinha, Matheus Nunes, Esuego ) with exception of Braganca are now on big clubs rosters. You clearly overate them in comparison to that midfield department. A midfield department that would have developed into an actual force on the continent under Amorim and utterly dominated domestically if Sporting were never a selling club.
No one disputes that. Frankly Anyone who has followed Amorim closely knows he will desire another DM of better technical skill than Ugarte, ( his direct Casemiro replacement)/in addition to a robust deep lying play maker, if he can keep Bruno. (Who if he can't he will insist on replacing) Which would complete the kinda midfield department he prefers to have for his system to function best. The whole issue why we have had this debate in the first place is this idea that "Ugarte should be replaced'. Anyone arguing for that betrays their lack of knowledge of what Amorim requires as options for his 2 Man midfield department in his favoured 3-4-3.
It's even made worse when they try to cite PSG "as an example." Yet what Amorim's system requires and what Enrique's requires are chalk and cheese.
Its not chalk and cheese at all. Joao Neves is a player who would fit well with an Amorim midfield
Ugarte will be a bench player next season if we build the squad right. If you disagree thats fine.
He had our 9th most minutes, so yeah he was good enough for the team that finished 15th. I get your point though, its not saying much
As a pairing Vitinha and Neves would get murdered operating in a permanent midfield duo having to cover the spaces Amorim requires his two starting center midfielders to cover. They literally have the self same technical and physical profile of Mainoo who has struggled in Amorim's two.
Which is precisely why the talk of emulating PSGs exact midfield is folly personified.
Its a marvel how its constantly ignored they operate in a permanent rotating 3 with Fabian Ruiz. Sharing midfield work between the 3 of them. That system and Amorim's ARE the definition of chalk and chese.
Ugarte will be a rotational player
ONCE Amorim assembles the entire midfield department he prefers to have as his first team options. If you disagree thats fine.
You seem to like to make up points no one has made so you can argue against it.
1. I did not mention Vitinha. Neves would be great in an Amorim system as I said. We passed on Neves last summer and signed Ugarte. I think that was a mistake because as I have said already Neves can do everything Ugarte can and is technically very good.
2. No one is suggesting we emulate PSGs exact midfield they are saying technical quality is important in midfield and that should be a priority when we build our midfield.
Didn't we pass up on entering the race for Neves because they quoted us a higher price and PSG paid it in cash, whereas we were asking for a payment plan?
What was the original outlay for Ugarte, 10m?
What was the original outlay for Ugarte, 10m?
We should have paid the higher price if we wanted instalments saving money and signing inferior players only costs you money in the end.
Don't get me wrong, I wanted Neves at the time and time has proven that to obviously have been the better fit and purchase. What I was getting at was maybe our actual cash balance wasn't sufficient and in steps a state-run club ready to dump cash into Benfica's vault.
I know what you meant but we still could have negotiated sufficient instalments and paid a little more.
Agree. Kante's overall game was much better than to be restricted in the limited "pure destroyer" category.
Rather you have this habit of consistently missing "the Forrest from the trees" concerning my posts. My comment addresses yours and ALL the other PSG related arguments that have been made in this forum concerning our midfield (and Ugarte in particular). All suffer the exact same flaw. Conflating PSGs set up with ours.
If we were still playing a 3 man midfield a Neves would look stupendously great for us. In a dedicated two he would not outside of paired with Casemiro or Ugarte fair as well.
Now let me address your other points directly so that you don't mistake what I'm actually addressing:
With the right partners yes?
Instead of Ugarte alongside like Bruno or say Eriksen/Mainoo? No chance in hell.
Frankly with either Ugarte or Neves we'd still be in the same spot. Looking for two other different type of midfielders to add to either of them and Bruno/Bruno's replacement for next season.
We did no such thing. We simply couldn't afford Neves so we signed option two on the list. It had nothing to do with prefference nor being "passed on".
Which ultimately helped contribute to ETHs fate for Neves suited his footballing intent far better.
I'm also utterly unconvinced Joao Neves would have changed our fate under Amorim. All he'd have added was a higher technical ceiling with a much lower defensive floor. Literally leaving us in the same boat.
I'm sorry but
Neves most definitely cannot contribute defensively what Ugarte does. It's no even close! Ugarte in his sole French league season for PSG was doubling nigh all the defensive numbers Neves has put up this season. There is no good reason to believe that would be any different at EPL level. Mind you am a literal "fan boi" of Joao Neves admitting to this.
Thats a fair sensible stance to have.
However I feel you must use better arguments than imagining members of PSGs midfield would be instant upgrades of those in ours. Or going afte Ugarte's techincal floor in comparison to those at PSG. Otherwise you won't ever stop being misunderstood
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Who recruited this lad, it's obvious their and Rubens philosophy doesn't jive. Glad they got them out early.
You have people here on CAF who will defend every decision United make in transfer market like their life depended on it.
I had people tell me vehemently last summer that Ugarte was just as good as Neves on the ball, because he had passing % above 90.
I thought you needed "steel" in your midfield to "unlock" other creative attacking midfielders? Huh
Not sure what that has to do with what I posted
Did the same team that recruited this lad also recruit Ruben? On one hand they realize Garnacho and Mainoo aren't the right fit but bring in this guy? Who the manager doesn't rate?
I think some of the criticism here is over the top. I share the concerns about his all round passing, though his success rate is ok its not very progressive - but it's one of these ones where we have ask is he the problem, or is a good player in a dysfuntional team. It was his first season and wasnt massively impressive but was far from disastrous individually too. He wins a lot of possession. My gut feeling is that he could perform well with the right partner and in a more dominant, threatening team. Its a tough job for our midfielders when our attack is so weak it allows opposition defences much more comfort to be involved in play. We may look to upgrade if things are progressing in other areas, but for now Id sooner us focus on another striker, a rwb and a goalkeeper.
The criticism I believe comes less from a “oh he’s terrible/useless” stance, and more so from a “we made someone who failed and was unwanted at a better team our marquee midfield signing when there were already clear limitations to his game.”
As a general rule of thumb, it’s stupid to spend significant resources on a player that is immediately regarded as limited in a key manner. Because then you fall into the trap of trying to find the perfect partner to compensate or try to justify that he’s just “adjusting to the league”. Spending close to 60m on a midfielder who struggles to play on the half turn and doesn’t pass the ball progressively at all is just bad policy. That doesn’t mean Ugarte is useless, just that in any good side his absolute ceiling is a rotation defensive minded CM. Not a starter.
Football and transfers don’t have to be difficult. Your midfield targets should be able to cover ground and comfortably pass and receive the ball while playing progressively. Defenders should be athletic and strong in duels and be able to read the game well. Attackers should be quick and technically sound while being able to either create for themselves or others with solid efficiency. Sure age might be a slight factor but in general traits like the above translate no matter the age. It’s why you see Yoro and Heaven look like two of our best CB’s already with minimal experience. Or Doue and Yamal lighting it up on the biggest stages for their clubs. Or Neves needing no time to “acclimate” to PSG and just go there and play well because he’s a baller.
When you start straying away from the above is how you get stuck paying 80m for Maguire, 70m for Hojlund, 55m for Martinez, 55m for Ugarte, 80m for Antony etc. and then wonder how you just ended up in 16th in the league while spending boatloads of cash. You end up buying enough of these flawed players that all need to be compensated for by other players and you end up with a team full of limitations and weak spots.
Loads of truth to what you say there, for years we've neglected to ensure that every signing has the basic gold standard of confidence in progressing the game, touch, and so on.
But I still think some leeway is needed for some players in our squad who I feel are part of the current failing, yes, but not neccesarily the cause of it. I think there's more to come from Ugarte, and I do think we are always retrospectively harsh on fees because we have signed so many duds. Ugarte cost 42 million pounds, rising to 50 if lots of clauses met.In the same summer, Onana went to Villa for 50 million pounds, Palinha went to Bayern for 47 million pounds, (very poor signing so far and many here wanted him), Conor Gallagher went for 35 million pounds. Ugarte's fee was in and around what would be expected for him and a player like him in summer 2024's market.
I share your doubts though, I thought in a couple of games this season in particular that he really disappointed with the speed at which he moves the ball and the intent of it. Perhaps he'll shine in a more functional team next season, but of course that's no guarantee.
I just think a good rule of thumb, especially if you want a DM, is that if the player is solely a defensive “stopper” type, then he needs to be elite at it. A Rice, Casemiro (prime version), Kante, etc. Someone you can throw in front of your back 4 that wins the ball so well that he enables the entire rest of the team to be more progressive even if he’s not doing much on the ball himself. Ugarte isn’t and has never been that, he’s more of an energetic, Fred type high volume tackler who’s going to get into a shit load of duels but also lose his fair share (which is why his defensive stats on the surface are so high).
It was my frustration last summer as well even when we hadn’t signed him yet, because from watching and studying him it was obvious what he was as a player and his type isn’t the type of guy you lock in on and chase as your main summer midfield signing. I think you can find Ugarte types for cheaper with some good scouting because the profile isn’t some unicorn type of player.
I believe that the game has evolved, and what is required from the DM is to be able to pass and progress, and if he is at the elite level of defending, that comes as a plus.
Regressed really. I think midfielders are just becoming midfielders again.
No I disagree. I feel the heat he gets isn't anywhere near enough. We've just seen a team get rid of him win the Champions League, he isn't a profile any top team has. There isn't a top team that carries someone so limited on the ball. He simply shouldn't be at this club there is no debate here and it's a shocker of a signing.
Whoever signed off on this deal should be fired.
Don’t rate him at all. We signed another castaway who wasn’t up to the level at their previous club.
He works hard but is just erratic and very poor on the ball. Ruben eventually dropping him tail end of the season says it all when Casemiro doesn’t have the legs, he still is benched. Add in that he is a “Ruben” type player, played his system, still not preferred.
Poor signing and not up to it.
He works hard but is just erratic and very poor on the ball. Ruben eventually dropping him tail end of the season says it all when Casemiro doesn’t have the legs, he still is benched. Add in that he is a “Ruben” type player, played his system, still not preferred.
Poor signing and not up to it.
Look at Vitinha, so much more than a DM
I can’t believe there isn’t more agreement that he’s one of the worst players to wear the shirt. It’s crazy what a career you can have just by dodgy agents
In general yes, but my point is that you can still easily build and compensate around a DM that isn't that level on the ball if he's such a monstrous stopper that he enables other parts of the team. Those players are rare to find though.
Again I’ll refer to Berrada’s 2 years to prove yourself.
Ugarte has shown glimpses and attributes in his first year which are much needed in the team.
But he is also inconsistent and can’t ever perform in back-to-back games, or even the full 90 minutes.
That will be his challenge for next season. If he comes up short then pack his bags and move him on next summer.
Ugarte has shown glimpses and attributes in his first year which are much needed in the team.
But he is also inconsistent and can’t ever perform in back-to-back games, or even the full 90 minutes.
That will be his challenge for next season. If he comes up short then pack his bags and move him on next summer.
That's basically what I had hoped when Ugarte was brought in. Sadly from his time here he just hasn't shown that he's that level.
Like you said we need players who aren't wedded to a certain niche or system, and if they are, make sure they are elite at what they specifically do (like Kante) and not bring them for hefty transfer fees.
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I'm hopeful with how we are approaching this summer that we are doing just that. Cunha is a great start as he can play and show his quality in pretty much any system. Mbuemo (if we manage to get him) as well is proven production and isn't locked into a single system or role. Hopefully the rest of our targets are the same. Regardless of whether Amorim works out or not, it shouldn't be difficult to find players that both "fit a system" profile wise without being deadlocked into said system and useless in any other role.
A former french player in interview said once Luis Enrique saw Ugarte playing badly against newcastle in the champions
he put him on the bench and never really played him that much and decided to sell him. He saw him as a very limited player.
They were not too sad to get 50 mil plus from us for an unneeded player.
he put him on the bench and never really played him that much and decided to sell him. He saw him as a very limited player.
They were not too sad to get 50 mil plus from us for an unneeded player.
I think Amorim improves everyone over summer by at least 10% in the preseason while we fill the squad with players we were missing. Ugarte won't be a starter and he will have to work immensely hard to get gametime next year, so it will be a make or break season for him, but I do think he will improve. Amorim improved Casemiro and Bruno considerably as he played in midfield himself. Expect Mainoo get a lift too.
He has a lot of good attributes but he just isn't good enough on the ball. He's easily pressed and loses possession far too much.
If Amorim wants a player in the midfield rotation who can dish it out a bit, which is never a bad option to have, then he stays. However, he has already been sold once before when Amorim was coach at Sporting - albeit to PSG who placed a decent bid that was tough for Sporting to turn down. Maybe, he could end up being sold twice under the leadership of Ruben...
I could see this gong either way. If Casemiro was a realistic departure, then Ugarte would probably stay but with Mainoo, Bruno and the younger midfielders such as Collyer, Moorehouse etc. I could imagine Ugarte leaving.
I could see this gong either way. If Casemiro was a realistic departure, then Ugarte would probably stay but with Mainoo, Bruno and the younger midfielders such as Collyer, Moorehouse etc. I could imagine Ugarte leaving.
That's absolutely fair.
Spoiler alert: He will be the same player as he was this season, talentless shin kicker
Challenge for anyone to provide me a top team in the past 5 years who consistently plays a player as limited as he is
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