Marco Rose | OFFICIAL: Joining Dortmund at the end of the season

pocco

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If OGS had the backing this season then he would of had a proper title challenge. Him wanting Grealish and Sancho would have improved us tenfold.
If we had Grealish and Sancho then I think a lot of managers could do something with our squad :lol: That's like fantasy stuff, adding another £200m worth of attackers to an already incredibly expensive squad.
 

Champ

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Progress or consistency is very difficult to achieve when you're hamstrung by Covid and are unable to improve upon a limited squad with games coming thick and fast due to the scheduling. So the drop off in form was predicted by some in this very thread.

Gladbach progressing from a group consisting of Real Madrid, Inter and Shakhtar was a good achievement considering the talent and experience the aforementioned 3 teams had over Gladbach. Getting knocked out by a club with state backing was expected but Gladbach have more than punched above their weight in the UCL.

Also don't forget that it was Di Marzio who first broke the news about Rose agreeing to join BVB which was in December last year, December 13th to be exact.
Every club has been impacted, yet the clubs above Gladbach in the league bar Dortmund are all consistent to last season.
Sorry, but Rose does not get a free pass on that, every club is in the same boat.

Di Marzio broke a story based on rumour and conjecture which so happened to be correct.
Again, that doesn't excuse the poor form and drop off that Gladbach are experiencing this season.

The progress from the group was impressive, I expected a third place finish for Gladbach, however they took advantage of a poor Inter showing and a lethargic Real.

The league form would be extremely worrying for most European chasing sides however.
 

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Every club has been impacted, yet the clubs above Gladbach in the league bar Dortmund are all consistent to last season.
Sorry, but Rose does not get a free pass on that, every club is in the same boat.

Di Marzio broke a story based on rumour and conjecture which so happened to be correct.
Again, that doesn't excuse the poor form and drop off that Gladbach are experiencing this season.

The progress from the group was impressive, I expected a third place finish for Gladbach, however they took advantage of a poor Inter showing and a lethargic Real.

The league form would be extremely worrying for most European chasing sides however.
The clubs above Gladbach either had no European competition to deal with or were in the Europa league where the early stages of the competition can easily be navigated by playing weakened teams. So yes they had a advantage and could rest players in preparation for league games. Leverkusen had Hapoel Beer Sheva, Slavia Prague and Nice in their group. Wolfsburg, Hertha, Frankfurt didn't even qualify for European competition. So yes, Covid hit Gladbach harder due to the volume of games they had to navigate both in the BuLi and in the UCL.

I didn't include BVB, Leipzig and Bayern in the above group due to all 3 of those clubs expected to finish above Gladbach due to having far superior squads IMO.

Di Marzio was correct and Rose had agreed to join BVB several months prior to when it was made official. He even gave a press conference to end several months of speculation by confirming the reports.
 

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The clubs above Gladbach either had no European competition to deal with or were in the Europa league where the early stages of the competition can easily be navigated by playing weakened teams. So yes they had a advantage and could rest players in preparation for league games. Leverkusen had Hapoel Beer Sheva, Slavia Prague and Nice in their group. Wolfsburg, Hertha, Frankfurt didn't even qualify for European competition. So yes, Covid hit Gladbach harder due to the volume of games they had to navigate both in the BuLi and in the UCL.

I didn't include BVB, Leipzig and Bayern in the above group due to all 3 of those clubs expected to finish above Gladbach due to having far superior squads IMO.

Di Marzio was correct and Rose had agreed to join BVB several months prior to when it was made official. He even gave a press conference to end several months of speculation by confirming the reports.
Even Bayern are clearly affected by their schedule:

Their defense especially. Honestly if this season was judged without context (which it shouldn't, unless you're one of the caf analysts of course) then people would probably question whether Flick is the right man for the job.

I wouldn't say Di Marzio is relevant to how this plays out either. His name carries little weight in Germany. Eberl and Rose themselves gave the rumours a lot of weight very early on: When you're a player and you see your DoF telling the media "oh, well what can you do if someone wants to leave?" and you see your coach telling the media "I'm so incredibly focused on today's match that it's just impossible to answer any question about my future", then even the slow ones can put 1+1 together.

It's also worth noting that in the leauge Thuram went from 0.74 G+A-PK per 90 to 0.42. While Plea went down from 0.84 to 0.34. Meanwhile in the CL Thuram registered a 0.67 and Plea 1.23(!).
 
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Adnan

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Even Bayern are clearly affected by their schedule:

Their defense especially. Honestly if this season was judged without context (which it shouldn't, unless you're one of the caf analysts of course) then people would probably question whether Flick is the right man for the job.

I wouldn't say Di Marzio is relevant to how this plays out either. His name carries little weight in Germany. Eberl and Rose themselves gave the rumours a lot of weight very early on: When you're a player and you see your DoF telling the media "oh, well what can you do if someone wants to leave?" and you see your coach telling the media "I'm so incredibly focused on today's match that it's just impossible to answer any question about my future", then even the slow ones can put 1+1 together.
I agree and I remember discussing this with you months prior and you said Covid could affect Gladbach with Rose having to juggle both the BuLi and the Champions League games. But unfortunately certain posters want to constantly find faults without taking on board the context of the situation from people who actually watch Gladbach regularly.
 

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If we had Grealish and Sancho then I think a lot of managers could do something with our squad :lol: That's like fantasy stuff, adding another £200m worth of attackers to an already incredibly expensive squad.
Pep had another fantasy summer, another £100m in defence with Torres to boot.

I think it's a valid point that if United were able to get Sancho or Freakish, and City were unable to get Días, the top two would probably be reversed right now!
 

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The clubs above Gladbach either had no European competition to deal with or were in the Europa league where the early stages of the competition can easily be navigated by playing weakened teams. So yes they had a advantage and could rest players in preparation for league games. Leverkusen had Hapoel Beer Sheva, Slavia Prague and Nice in their group. Wolfsburg, Hertha, Frankfurt didn't even qualify for European competition. So yes, Covid hit Gladbach harder due to the volume of games they had to navigate both in the BuLi and in the UCL.

I didn't include BVB, Leipzig and Bayern in the above group due to all 3 of those clubs expected to finish above Gladbach due to having far superior squads IMO.

Di Marzio was correct and Rose had agreed to join BVB several months prior to when it was made official. He even gave a press conference to end several months of speculation by confirming the reports.
Wow, you
[.

The clubs above Gladbach either had no European competition to deal with or were in the Europa league where the early stages of the competition can easily be navigated by playing weakened teams. So yes they had a advantage and could rest players in preparation for league games. Leverkusen had Hapoel Beer Sheva, Slavia Prague and Nice in their group. Wolfsburg, Hertha, Frankfurt didn't even qualify for European competition. So yes, Covid hit Gladbach harder due to the volume of games they had to navigate both in the BuLi and in the UCL.

I didn't include BVB, Leipzig and Bayern in the above group due to all 3 of those clubs expected to finish above Gladbach due to having far superior squads IMO.

Di Marzio was correct and Rose had agreed to join BVB several months prior to when it was made official. He even gave a press conference to end several months of speculation by confirming the reports.
Wow,

So essentially Gladbach playing six European games has led to a massive decline in terms of league form?? Thats a problem in itself is it not?

Face it, Rose has so far this season led Gladbach to a worse position in the league with minimal if any progress unless they go on a winning run, which by your rationale, by being out of Europe, they should!

There league drop off is alarming, theres no two ways about it, and 6 extra games should not do that to a team.
 

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Wow, you

Wow,

So essentially Gladbach playing six European games has led to a massive decline in terms of league form?? Thats a problem in itself is it not?

Face it, Rose has so far this season led Gladbach to a worse position in the league with minimal if any progress unless they go on a winning run, which by your rationale, by being out of Europe, they should!

There league drop off is alarming, theres no two ways about it, and 6 extra games should not do that to a team.
No it's not a problem at all. It's the price a limited squad has to pay for playing in the UCL in a unprecedented season due to Covid. And I'm not sure why you keep bringing up last season and comparing it with the current one after all I've explained.

Yes it does look like it will be a worse position this season compared to last season, but I've already explained that in my previous post in response to you.

The 6 games in the UCL aren't the only contributing factor here as I've explained in this thread. But I wouldn't expect you to understand that considering you have formed opinions on Rose and Gladbach via a Google search and have even argued with people about a game which Gladbach lost in the past over a short match report.
 

Champ

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Even Bayern are clearly affected by their schedule:

Their defense especially. Honestly if this season was judged without context (which it shouldn't, unless you're one of the caf analysts of course) then people would probably question whether Flick is the right man for the job.

I wouldn't say Di Marzio is relevant to how this plays out either. His name carries little weight in Germany. Eberl and Rose themselves gave the rumours a lot of weight very early on: When you're a player and you see your DoF telling the media "oh, well what can you do if someone wants to leave?" and you see your coach telling the media "I'm so incredibly focused on today's match that it's just impossible to answer any question about my future", then even the slow ones can put 1+1 together.

It's also worth noting that in the leauge Thuram went from 0.74 G+A-PK per 90 to 0.42. While Plea went down from 0.84 to 0.34. Meanwhile in the CL Thuram registered a 0.67 and Plea 1.23(!).
Where are you getting this data from, as I have Bayern as being top after 22 games in 19/20 with a total of 46 points.

Am i incorrect?
 

Champ

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No it's not a problem at all. It's the price a limited squad has to pay for playing in the UCL in a unprecedented season due to Covid. And I'm not sure why you keep bringing up last season and comparing it with the current one after all I've explained.

Yes it does look like it will be a worse position this season compared to last season, but I've already explained that in my previous post in response to you.

The 6 games in the UCL aren't the only contributing factor here as I've explained in this thread. But I wouldn't expect you to understand that considering you have formed opinions on Rose and Gladbach via a Google search and have even argued with people about a game which Gladbach lost in the past over a short match report.
The last Bastian of someone who is struggling to find reason....try to belittle the other person's facts.
That's fine, but progress can only be measured by what's gone before, hence using last season as a barometer.

I don't have a formed opinion of Rose, it appears you do, I am imparting actual evidence showing a poor run of form and a poor league position so far, whereas you have offered nothing but excuses as to why they are so poor.

The fact remains that they are in a poor position so far this season, and have showed no signs of progress other than a good Champions League group phase.
Something which Gladbach won't see again next season if they don't improve fast!
 

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The progress from the difficult CL group, while a awesome achievement as a bottom line, is a bit deceiving since it really was down to Inter's and Real's bottling and not so much Gladbach's brilliance.
Apart from the Shakhtar ties and the first 70 minutes of one Real game, they weren't very convincing, and had Inter managed to beat Shakhtar they'd have been out to EL.
Gladbach did well and held their own in the group, and got lucky to progress, but that's really all there is to it. In terms of quality, they have no business being in the CL knockouts and the league campaign has been disappointing.
 

Champ

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The progress from the difficult CL group, while a awesome achievement as a bottom line, is a bit deceiving since it really was down to Inter's and Real's bottling and not so much Gladbach's brilliance.
Apart from the Shakhtar ties and the first 70 minutes of one Real game, they weren't very convincing, and had Inter managed to beat Shakhtar they'd have been out to EL.
Gladbach did well and held their own in the group, and got lucky to progress, but that's really all there is to it. In terms of quality, they have no business being in the CL knockouts and the league campaign has been disappointing.
Reasoned post,

As a Bayern fan can you offer any insight to the league data posted by do.ob a few posts above for Bayern and see if it is correct? I have different data to that which was posted and would like to know which is correct?

Also, with regards to Rose, hypothetically, saying that Dortmund have the same team as they do now but coached by Rose, would you fear them more or less as an opposition as you would now with Terzic?
 

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The last Bastian of someone who is struggling to find reason....try to belittle the other person's facts.
That's fine, but progress can only be measured by what's gone before, hence using last season as a barometer.

I don't have a formed opinion of Rose, it appears you do, I am imparting actual evidence showing a poor run of form and a poor league position so far, whereas you have offered nothing but excuses as to why they are so poor.

The fact remains that they are in a poor position so far this season, and have showed no signs of progress other than a good Champions League group phase.
Something which Gladbach won't see again next season if they don't improve fast!
Your facts only go as far as what you see after the 'fact'. I'm contexualizing what you're saying and have easily refuted you because I do watch Gladbach play regularly. And I'm sorry you think I'm belittling you because what I said regarding you forming opinions about Gladbach without watching the team play is well documented in this very thread.

Yes I do have a formed opinion on Gladbach and Rose because I watch them play regularly and have consistently said the team Rose has at his disposal isn't very good. How many players from the current Gladbach team would get into the United first 11?

They aren't in a ideal position but it's not a big surprise to me because I had doubts Gladbach could repeat what they did last season league position wise with Leverkusen IMO having a better team and a very good coach to boot.
 

Hansi Fick

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Reasoned post,

As a Bayern fan can you offer any insight to the league data posted by do.ob a few posts above for Bayern and see if it is correct? I have different data to that which was posted and would like to know which is correct?

Also, with regards to Rose, hypothetically, saying that Dortmund have the same team as they do now but coached by Rose, would you fear them more or less as an opposition as you would now with Terzic?
As a Bayern fan, I'm of course reasoned, unbiased, fair, and benevolent to the designated next BVB manager, and it's not out of spite that I point out he isn't all that :wenger:

What data do yo mean? The one @do.ob posted looks like it's screenshot from transfermarkt so it's probably right, whatever the context is
 

Adnan

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The progress from the difficult CL group, while a awesome achievement as a bottom line, is a bit deceiving since it really was down to Inter's and Real's bottling and not so much Gladbach's brilliance.
Apart from the Shakhtar ties and the first 70 minutes of one Real game, they weren't very convincing, and had Inter managed to beat Shakhtar they'd have been out to EL.
Gladbach did well and held their own in the group, and got lucky to progress, but that's really all there is to it. In terms of quality, they have no business being in the CL knockouts and the league campaign has been disappointing.
Of course they were gonna need luck to progress from that group. Compare the squads of Inter and Madrid to Gladbach and it's very clear The Foals were severely handicapped talent-wise in comparison.
 

Caesar2290

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If OGS had the backing this season then he would of had a proper title challenge. Him wanting Grealish and Sancho would have improved us tenfold.
Don't be so certain. We already spent 130 million on defenders and out defense still sucks.
 

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Of course they were gonna need luck to progress from that group. Compare the squads of Inter and Madrid to Gladbach and it's very clear The Foals were severely handicapped talent-wise in comparison.
Obviously.
I'm just pointing out that Gladbach got a mere 2 points out of the 4 games against Inter and Real, which is why it would be wrong to conclude that Rose got them to significantly overperform in light of their talent disadvantage, and which is why the progression is somewhat deceiving.
 

do.ob

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Obviously.
I'm just pointing out that Gladbach got a mere 2 points out of the 4 games against Inter and Real, which is why it would be wrong to conclude that Rose got them to significantly overperform in light of their talent disadvantage, and which is why the progression is somewhat deceiving.
They were competitive in three of those matches and denied a win by last minute equalizers in two. I'd say given the gulf in squad quality that's overperformance.
 

Adnan

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Obviously.
I'm just pointing out that Gladbach got a mere 2 points out of the 4 games against Inter and Real, which is why it would be wrong to conclude that Rose got them to significantly overperform in light of their talent disadvantage, and which is why the progression is somewhat deceiving.
Gladbach could've easily won two of those games against Madrid and Inter too, but conceded really late goals.

He did get them to overperform because they qualified from the group whilst having a much inferior team in comparison.
 

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They were competitive in three of those matches and denied a win by last minute equalizers in two. I'd say given the gulf in squad quality that's overperformance.
I added the word "significantly", now we could argue about what's significant or not, but I doubt we would come to a resolution, given that we seem to be, a tiny little bit, invested in different outcomes.
 

Champ

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Your facts only go as far as what you see after the 'fact'. I'm contexualizing what you're saying and have easily refuted you because I do watch Gladbach play regularly. And I'm sorry you think I'm belittling you because what I said regarding you forming opinions about Gladbach without watching the team play is well documented in this very thread.

Yes I do have a formed opinion on Gladbach and Rose because I watch them play regularly and have consistently said the team Rose has at his disposal isn't very good. How many players from the current Gladbach team would get into the United first 11?

They aren't in a ideal position but it's not a big surprise to me because I had doubts Gladbach could repeat what they did last season league position wise with Leverkusen IMO having a better team and a very good coach to boot.
I have made very valid points and have been chastised because I am going against what you believe. That isn't contextualizing.

I am obviously not going to change your mind on these points, and neither would I want too, however I do feel that you have given Rose every excuse under the sun to offer reasoning why they sit so far behind both last season, and the top four this season, of which other managers have had to deal with yet seem to be coping with absolutely fine.

Cahanging teh subject slightly - do you feel like Rose can convince Haaland and Sancho to stay if (a big if) Dortmund get champions league football next season?
 

Champ

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As a Bayern fan, I'm of course reasoned, unbiased, fair, and benevolent to the designated next BVB manager, and it's not out of spite that I point out he isn't all that :wenger:

What data do yo mean? The one @do.ob posted looks like it's screenshot from transfermarkt so it's probably right, whatever the context is
:lol: :lol:

I think the data is incorrect personally, I was hoping for clarification!
 

Zlatan 7

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It’s strange how he’s agreed to go to a competitor mid season, what if both Dortmund and gladbach are fighting for a champions league position at the end of the season, there’s a clear conflict of priorities.
 

Hansi Fick

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:lol: :lol:

I think the data is incorrect personally, I was hoping for clarification!
I'm not sure what the data exactly is supposed to represent and which timeframe or selection parameters it refers too.

His general point that our defense is shite this season is hardly deniable, and a connection between this fact and our schedule can be assumed, though I wouldn't consider it very straight-forward.
Keep also in mind that as opposed to BVB or indeed Gladbach, Bayern players had no holiday or preparation to speak of (considering that in 19/20 Rose managed to crash out Gladbach from an EL group with Wolfsberger AC, Roma and Basaksehir, losing both to the Pellets and Basaksehir at home..)
 

CG1010

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If we had Grealish and Sancho then I think a lot of managers could do something with our squad :lol: That's like fantasy stuff, adding another £200m worth of attackers to an already incredibly expensive squad.
Ole has hardly made investments in the attack though. What he splurged on Bruno was compensated by Lukaku's sale. Plus he got rid of Alexis Sanchez's wages and Cavani's wages are lower than that. He reversed the fortunes of Rashford and Martial (well atleast last season) and brought up Greenwood.
 

do.ob

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I added the word "significantly", now we could argue about what's significant or not, but I doubt we would come to a resolution, given that we seem to be, a tiny little bit, invested in different outcomes.
Fair enough.



I think in general it's easy to spot the common pattern among German coaches:

Beaten Bayern, Dortmund, Leipzig and gotten good results in the CL.
On the other hand five losses in the league: 2 against Dortmund and Leverkusen, 3 against Hoffenheim, Cologne and Mainz

Which is basically also Dortmund's classic pattern. Now, since Gladbach does not have the strongest or deepest squad the question is why: to what degree is it an issue of quality, energy, motivation or coaching. In the end it won't be just a singular problem and how well he deals with being forced into a dominant position is the thing I'll be watching most closely when he takes over Dortmund, but stats like these suggest there might be a significant issue with the squad:


I'm not sure what the data exactly is supposed to represent and which timeframe or selection parameters it refers too.

His general point that our defense is shite this season is hardly deniable, and a connection between this fact and our schedule can be assumed, though I wouldn't consider it very straight-forward.
Keep also in mind that as opposed to BVB or indeed Gladbach, Bayern players had no holiday or preparation to speak of (considering that in 19/20 Rose managed to crash out Gladbach from an EL group with Wolfsberger AC, Roma and Basaksehir, losing both to the Pellets and Basaksehir at home..)
It's Flick's Bundesliga career stats. Bayern is hit significantly worse by the schedule, missing pre season and CWC obligations, but they also have a far better and deeper squad than Gladbach and play far more dominant football. Imagine all those games where Neuer and Lewandowski delivered with an out of form Plea or Sommer instead.

Nagelsmann has impressed the most. Despite replacing Schick and Werner with Sörloth and not having a pre-season either, he's got his team on a 0.2 higher ppg compared to last season and doing well in both cup competitions. From his fairly deep, but individually not that strong squad he managed to form such a cohesive collective, that it almost doesn't seem to matter who actually plays.
 
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Adnan

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I have made very valid points and have been chastised because I am going against what you believe. That isn't contextualizing.

I am obviously not going to change your mind on these points, and neither would I want too, however I do feel that you have given Rose every excuse under the sun to offer reasoning why they sit so far behind both last season, and the top four this season, of which other managers have had to deal with yet seem to be coping with absolutely fine.

Cahanging teh subject slightly - do you feel like Rose can convince Haaland and Sancho to stay if (a big if) Dortmund get champions league football next season?
I'm sorry you feel you're being chastised and I want you to express your opinion freely. So please accept my apology if you think I came across like I was chastising you because that wasn't my intention.

It's not about making excuses but rather myself understanding the limitations of the squad at his disposal which I've mentioned several times in the past. And then on top of that he had no money to spend to build upon his top 4 finish last season and had lost one of his key players (Zakaria) for a prolonged period of time through injury which weakened his team for the new season.

I'm under no illusions regarding Rose because at Dortmund he's gonna be under far more pressure to get results but will have a good squad to work with and I will judge him with that in mind. But you have to remember that no head-coach/manager has a magic wand and it comes down to the players at your disposal and how they execute the plan of action.

I don't know the answer to the question but it seems Sancho will leave if reports are to be believed. Regarding Haaland, Sport Bild are reporting the info in the below tweet.

 

RashyForPM

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I'm sorry you feel you're being chastised and I want you to express your opinion freely. So please accept my apology if you think I came across like I was chastising you because that wasn't my intention.

It's not about making excuses but rather myself understanding the limitations of the squad at his disposal which I've mentioned several times in the past. And then on top of that he had no money to spend to build upon his top 4 finish last season and had lost one of his key players (Zakaria) for a prolonged period of time through injury which weakened his team for the new season.

I'm under no illusions regarding Rose because at Dortmund he's gonna be under far more pressure to get results but will have a good squad to work with and I will judge him with that in mind. But you have to remember that no head-coach/manager has a magic wand and it comes down to the players at your disposal and how they execute the plan of action.

I don't know the answer to the question but it seems Sancho will leave if reports are to be believed. Regarding Haaland, Sport Bild are reporting the info in the below tweet.

Good news that. Bild obviously aren’t the most reliable German news source but if Rose, Zorc and Watzke are all preparing for his sale, and preparing for his sale to us specifically, then it can be nothing but good. Hope it’s at a reduced price too.
 

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Your facts only go as far as what you see after the 'fact'. I'm contexualizing what you're saying and have easily refuted you because I do watch Gladbach play regularly. And I'm sorry you think I'm belittling you because what I said regarding you forming opinions about Gladbach without watching the team play is well documented in this very thread.

Yes I do have a formed opinion on Gladbach and Rose because I watch them play regularly and have consistently said the team Rose has at his disposal isn't very good. How many players from the current Gladbach team would get into the United first 11?

They aren't in a ideal position but it's not a big surprise to me because I had doubts Gladbach could repeat what they did last season league position wise with Leverkusen IMO having a better team and a very good coach to boot.
I think this is totally on point. Over Rose's (relative) success at Gladbach many people oversee that this team is painfully average. I think you don't even have to compare them with us, the squad itself is 'even' weaker than Frankfurt if you ask me. Zakaria, Ginter, Thuram, Plea and Neuhaus are good players but so far I haven't seen anything from them that really impressed me. I don't even want to see any of them at Leverkusen and they are a direct competitor of us. You don't even have to argue few players would make it into the starting eleven of United, I doubt many would make it at Dortmund, Leipzig or even us. When I read that those players are suddenly linked to top clubs, I get the feeling that disappointments are only a matter of time. You see how a player of Havertz' talent calibre is struggling right now, or a tier below even Werner, and Neuhaus for example IMO is another level below that.

Gladbach had much better teams than this one in the past. Rose's doing a remarkable job and has this team punching above it's weight for sure.
 

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pocco

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Keep a clean shit tomorrow, United is my final bus
Pep had another fantasy summer, another £100m in defence with Torres to boot.

I think it's a valid point that if United were able to get Sancho or Freakish, and City were unable to get Días, the top two would probably be reversed right now!
It's all ifs and buts. If Spurs had took their chance at Bruno then we'd probably be in 7th/8th right now and they'd probably be challenging.
 

Zehner

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Fair enough.



I think in general it's easy to spot the common pattern among German coaches:

Beaten Bayern, Dortmund, Leipzig and gotten good results in the CL.
On the other hand five losses in the league: 2 against Dortmund and Leverkusen, 3 against Hoffenheim, Cologne and Mainz

Which is basically also Dortmund's classic pattern. Now, since Gladbach does not have the strongest or deepest squad the question is why: to what degree is it an issue of quality, energy, motivation or coaching. In the end it won't be just a singular problem and how well he deals with being forced into a dominant position is the thing I'll be watching most closely when he takes over Dortmund, but stats like these suggest there might be a significant issue with the squad:




It's Flick's Bundesliga career stats. Bayern is hit significantly worse by the schedule, missing pre season and CWC obligations, but they also have a far better and deeper squad than Gladbach and play far more dominant football. Imagine all those games where Neuer and Lewandowski delivered with an out of form Plea or Sommer instead.

Nagelsmann has impressed the most. Despite replacing Schick and Werner with Sörloth and not having a pre-season either, he's got his team on a 0.2 higher ppg compared to last season and doing well in both cup competitions. From his fairly deep, but individually not that strong squad he managed to form such a cohesive collective, that it almost doesn't seem to matter who actually plays.
Leverkusen fourth to last in both tables. That's telling but probably also speaks volumes about our injury crisis + squad depth.
 

Hansi Fick

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Progress or consistency is very difficult to achieve when you're hamstrung by Covid and are unable to improve upon a limited squad with games coming thick and fast due to the scheduling. So the drop off in form was predicted by some in this very thread.
I'm going to give Rose a hard time, because why not, but the above is of course true.

Out of the top 5 (Bayern. Leipzig, BVB, Leverkusen, Gladbach), Gladbach are by far the poorest club and financially operating a level below even the top 4 competitors bar Bayern. So especially to them, a negative and damaging impact due to CoVid is really to be expected.
Also, already in previous seasons Gladbach hadn't followed stride with CL qualification by making the investment into the squad that would be demanded in order to remain evenly, relatively competitive in all competitions; and now in Covid times especially they weren't going to invest in a better, deeper squad.
It's apparent that Eberl considers CL participation an overperformance in relation to the club's financial position and dimension, and isn't willing to overcommit as a quick reaction to it, in terms of spending. One could surely have wondered whether they couldn't be more strategically bold to build on the success, but not with the pandemic.

I think in general it's easy to spot the common pattern among German coaches:

Beaten Bayern, Dortmund, Leipzig and gotten good results in the CL.
On the other hand five losses in the league: 2 against Dortmund and Leverkusen, 3 against Hoffenheim, Cologne and Mainz

Which is basically also Dortmund's classic pattern. Now, since Gladbach does not have the strongest or deepest squad the question is why: to what degree is it an issue of quality, energy, motivation or coaching. In the end it won't be just a singular problem and how well he deals with being forced into a dominant position is the thing I'll be watching most closely when he takes over Dortmund, but stats like these suggest there might be a significant issue with the squad:
Interesting. I assume 'Differenzen' means, compared to last season? Or is it, the difference to the opponent?

(edit: I misunderstood it at first, it's the difference to the opponent teams, so it doesn't necessarily say we run less this season than last, and also is connected to us having so much possession. The following is a based on a wrong assumption then)
Now what I wonder is (focusing on the Bayern stat difference as that's the team I watch every week), is this really the result of a change in the approach, is it an active strategy? The tweet seems to interpret it as such.
I'm not so sure to what degree this reality, i.e. that Bayern players run significantly less, is controlled, and to what degree it's just happening without Flick wanting it or proposing it.
Do you really think the coaching team implements a strategy to run less and sprint more? Or do we have to end up sprinting more, as we run so much less on the whole (the biggest negative difference) and have less grip on the games due to that? It's probably somewhere in between.


Another edit: I found the stats for 19/20, https://bstat.de/doku.php/1920/laufleistung
So Bayern run 'lesser' AND sprint 'less more' in 20/21 compared to 19/20.
The km-difference to the opponent sank from an average -1,8 per game to -3,8, and while we did 30 more sprints than the opponent per game in 19/20 it sank to 11 in the above graph.
So in fact the sprinting has decreased even more than the running, which explain the complete loss of intensity.

It's Flick's Bundesliga career stats. Bayern is hit significantly worse by the schedule, missing pre season and CWC obligations, but they also have a far better and deeper squad than Gladbach and play far more dominant football. Imagine all those games where Neuer and Lewandowski delivered with an out of form Plea or Sommer instead.

Nagelsmann has impressed the most. Despite replacing Schick and Werner with Sörloth and not having a pre-season either, he's got his team on a 0.2 higher ppg compared to last season and doing well in both cup competitions. From his fairly deep, but individually not that strong squad he managed to form such a cohesive collective, that it almost doesn't seem to matter who actually plays.
That's true. I would, as I wrote above, also not atttribute our poor defensive performance this season, directly, mono-causally, to the schedule.
If it's fatige, it's also mental fatigue, it's also the 'having-won' situation, it's also stuff in the team (Alaba leaving etc), it's also the change in midfield with Thiago gone.
But no doubt, with our break-neck approach, the missing last percent in freshness, movement, and intensity, the missing kilometers of the above graph, can be fatal.

I also think that, regarding all teams everywhere, the whole bubble thing, hygienic measures, the whole testing and quarantining, not being able to party or have a social life, will impact the performances of athletes as it impacts the work and private life of everyone else, often very negatively.

I share the awe in front of Nagelsmann's work. As much as I fail to understand how the feck the squad planning team (and I assume Nagelsmann is involved) thinks the whole 'not having a single good striker' thing is supposed to go down for a top football team.
You have to wonder what they saw in Sörloth since clearly he doesn't offer anything, so far. And then they bought Szoboszlai apparently with a protracted, untreated injury.
 
Last edited:

do.ob

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Another edit: I found the stats for 19/20, https://bstat.de/doku.php/1920/laufleistung
So Bayern run 'lesser' AND sprint 'less more' in 20/21 compared to 19/20.
The km-difference to the opponent sank from an average -1,8 per game to -3,8, and while we did 30 more sprints than the opponent per game in 19/20 it sank to 11 in the above graph.
So in fact the sprinting has decreased even more than the running, which explain the complete loss of intensity.


That's true. I would, as I wrote above, also not atttribute our poor defensive performance this season, directly, mono-causally, to the schedule.
If it's fatige, it's also mental fatigue, it's also the 'having-won' situation, it's also stuff in the team (Alaba leaving etc), it's also the change in midfield with Thiago gone.
But no doubt, with our break-neck approach, the missing last percent in freshness, movement, and intensity, the missing kilometers of the above graph, can be fatal.

I also think that, regarding all teams everywhere, the whole bubble thing, hygienic measures, the whole testing and quarantining, not being able to party or have a social life, will impact the performances of athletes as it impacts the work and private life of everyone else, often very negatively.

I share the awe in front of Nagelsmann's work. As much as I fail to understand how the feck the squad planning team (and I assume Nagelsmann is involved) thinks the whole 'not having a single good striker' thing is supposed to go down for a top football team.
You have to wonder what they saw in Sörloth since clearly he doesn't offer anything, so far. And then they bought Szoboszlai apparently with a protracted, untreated injury.

It's not all down to the schedule of course. At either club. But at some point there is just no proper substitute for leg work. If you want to play a high line and rely on "Gegenpressing" to close your gaps then even the weak teams will punish you sooner or later if your players keep being a step too late. Gladbach don't have the luxury of Neuer's sweeping as a fail safe or an attack around Lewandowski to score from very little, or the midfield that can suffocate teams. Their attack relies on forcing mistakes through pressing and direct play, which demands constant runs into depth. Which puts Rose in to a position where he can either blunt his attack by playing tired key players or he can blunt it by playing significantly weaker players like Herrmann, Embolo or Wolf. It's no surprise that the three teams in the quadrant of shame, Gladbach, Schalke and Leverkusen (admittedly to a lesser degree) are all underperforming.

Leipzig obviously saw 24 goals and 9 assists in 3000 minutes from Sörloth, perhaps good athleticism as well and took the risk that he wouldn't transition seemlessly from Turkey.
As far as Szoboszlai goes: two years ago they "paid" €20m for Haidara, who was halfway into his recovery from an ACL injury. Who cares about injuries, when they "sign" from their own colony clubs. It's probably a way to funnel money back into Salzburg, now that they are "independent".
 

Champ

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Another late goal conceded to add to the collection.
Wonder what the excuses will be this time to defend another loss?
Naglesmann has Rose all day long.
 

Hansi Fick

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Since his move has become public, four defeats in a row. The one today against his designated assistant :lol:

Gladbach fans are only a pandemic away from tearing the place down
 

do.ob

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Since his move has become public, four defeats in a row. The one today against his designated assistant :lol:

Gladbach fans are only a pandemic away from tearing the place down
Being denied the right to see Gladbach and Schalke fans burn down their stadiums is the real casualty of the pandemic.
 

RC89

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Keeping Haaland "at all costs" makes some sense, how much was the release clause again?

They'd surely need to get at least double the release in order to let him go early and I doubt anyone is offering close to that.
Apparently the release clause is €75m.

Maybe if a certain team who have no hope of winning the race for him when his clause becomes active were to offer a little shy of double, say €130m, it could be a winner for everyone involved.