To be fair, the transformation Ronaldo and Henry had made after their first 200 games are absolutely phenomenal and out of everyone expectation. But let’s hope Rashford could also do the same
Marcus Rashford is the most valuable player in our squad
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Interesting response to someone destroying your agenda filled stats. It's cute how you felt the need to dig all those stats despite not even supporting any of Uniteds rivals clubs. This type of obsession is harmful.
Can't agree more.
People generally only focus on numbers and forget the overall context.
Ronaldo, Mbappe, etc. all of them were or are playing with world class service in a much better and more stable teams, some cases with a much easier league like Mbappe. And Rashford has been playing with 3 managers with very different styles which offered almost no stability. Or this season with basically a non existent service with Lingard, Perreira or Mata behind. If we have someone like KDB or a top form Pogba on a regular basis, his number would be much higher imo.
If we look into the case under this context, you'd rate him even more I think.
Worst part is, he thinks his post gave deeper statistical context.
Exactly, we have a relegation standard midfield. Just look at the stats when Pogba is playing on creativity.
Rashford excelled as a ST last season because Pogba was finding his runs, how often do we play a direct ball over the top with our current midfield?
Playing a direct ball doesnt mean hoof football, City, Liverpool all do this, they play play direct when required, we do this when Pogba is in our team. two goals that come to mind are Spurs away last season and Chelsea at home this season.
By having different ways of breaking teams down, it opens up more space for midfielders and full backs when a team knows someone might run in behind.
Currently, none of our players can play a 40 yard pass accurately.
My agenda is seperating penalties from open play goals. It's neither something I apply to this case specifically, nor is it a view that uniquely belongs to me. The other thing I did was put output into the context of time, because you know.. most people define productiveness by output/time.
Apparently that gets "destroyed" by someone saying Rashford won 3 or 4 of those penalties. We could talk about whether or not it makes sense to put the same value as scoring a goal on getting fouled in the box or if he thinks that other players nerver got fouled themselves, but somehow I have the impression that a calm discussion is not possible in this thread.
I fail to see the utility in extracting out penalty goals from the overall stat honestly. They’re all goals and they all count for 1. Might as well extract 2 yard tap ins for Abraham or free kicks or headers or whatever else.
The reasoning is described in the link. Penalties aren't trivial, but they have nothing to do with attacking skill. Hans-Jörg Butt for example was at one points Hamburg's "best" goal scorer. Yet they somehow didn't entertain the thought of putting him on as an attacker, but rather kept him playing in goal. On the other end of the spectrum you have Messi, who is one of the best attackers and goal scorer of all time, yet has a fairly mediocre (if not worse) penalty record. If you just want to ask yourself who scored the most goals, then whatever.. count them in. But if you want to draw conclusions based on #goals scored, then there's an argument for seperating the two.
Somehow your post missed the fact that Rashford isn't playing as a proper CF(most of the season anyway) while Tammy, Osimeh and Lautaro are. Then there's also the fact that English league is infact two levels above French league when it comes to overall strength and stronger than Italian and German league overall. As I said there was no deep context to your stat(which can again be checked through UEFA League coefficient list where England has more than 20 and 20 points than Germany and Italy respectively)/
"Deeper statistical context" is a fancy word for a WUM though. I'll give you that.
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Neither are Mbappe or Sancho. The original list didn't specify full time #9s, but if filtering based on that distinction is important to you then feel free to do so. Lukaku is neither u23 nor is he on that list btw.
The idea of looking at penalty goals seperately isn't half baked, I linked you a professional data analyst that explains their reasoning for doing the same.
Mbappe and Sancho also play in much inferior league(you can check the UEFA Coefficient list for that where England has 25% more points than Germany and 40% more points than France). As I said there just because removed penalties from the goals doesn't mean it gave the stats a deeper statistical context, you ignored the league strength and also the position of the players when both of those things matter too.
I never said I created a perfect index for player rating
You sound insecure. Try knitting, it's quite therapeutic.
Needs to improve his decisionmaking and effectiveness against a deep sitting defence.
And decide whether he is to become a specialist like Salah or a more well-rounded player like Mane.
And decide whether he is to become a specialist like Salah or a more well-rounded player like Mane.
When you want to compare apple to apple, do take out penalty, simply because it is unfair comparison adding at least 5-6 goals a season (or more). I would include other set piece because it is indeed a skill. I recall Henry wasn't the PK taker.
To be fair, I see no reason to be defensive against the penalty stat. The fact is penalties do boost Rashfords stats, and even without penalties, it's still a very decent return.
IMO @do.ob wasn't trying to WUM, but add more context to the comparison of the different young goalscorers.
IMO @do.ob wasn't trying to WUM, but add more context to the comparison of the different young goalscorers.
Henry was the PK, at least in his prime. Maybe Bergkamp took some but after Henry became established he was the main PK taker IIRC, but my memory gets hazy prior to 2005-06.
Personally, I don't understand the issue some have with the list @do.ob made, it's a valid list to compare all these names and considering the penalties as a separate category. The fact that Rashford won most of those penalties isn't destroying any argument because, as it's been mentioned before, others on the list have won the penalties but didn't take them for various reasons, least of which is the idea they couldn't score it themselves.
It's just a very strange defensive instinct to perceived criticism of Rashford when it's just context.
Amazing how none of this penalties, "deeper context" wasn't applied when talking about goals scored by Icardi, Lampard, Lewandowski, Kane, Hazard but the moment ManUtd player tops some list, few just can't wait to seperate Penalties.
If others also won penalties then just post those stats, simple as that.
Hazard's goal scoring record wasn't better than Rashford without penalties, wonder why these penalties wasn't excluded back then
If others also won penalties then just post those stats, simple as that.
Hazard's goal scoring record wasn't better than Rashford without penalties, wonder why these penalties wasn't excluded back then
This is a Rashford thread though, also it's the first time Rashford can actually be compared to those other players in terms of output due to this being essentially his best season of his young career.
I pulled my lower back muscle couple of months ago playing futsal..took me almost 3 weeks to fully recover.
Don't think he will ever make it, even on the bench.
Don't think he will ever make it, even on the bench.
He's too important to rush back to a game against Liverpool that's possibly going to be a loss anyways, there's no point of even risking jeopardizing him more with some injection because that's really the only realistic way I could see him being able to play.
And why wasn't the penalty stat brought in their respective threads?
Why isn't the fact that other players plays in poor leagues isn't used against them? Why isn't the strength of the teams and how other players play in more settled and creative teams isnt used as something to praise Rashford?
Posting half baked stats and then celebrating that as deeper statistical context is hilarious. Strength of the league, club, manager, how creative team is, heat map to see where player plays, how many touches player has in the box that's the context.
Rashford wins shit loads of penalties and he converts them. If other players also wins penalties then posts those numbers. That will also give context.
You can say all that and it's valid. Just, no need to be uber defensive about the fact that Rashford has scored more from penalties. Both are valid.
I don't understand why it's defensive, so if 1 guy says something it's called giving context and if other guy challenges that context then it's called being defensive. No one is defensive, this is forum where every post is challenged.
I didn't make the list, but I understood it as analyzing Rashford specifically in comparison with other players out there. I'm sure someone can come up with a full statistical list to compare, regardless of how it's done, and Rashford will still come out looking solid. However, when you get into vague notions of league strength, manager, creativity within the team, etc...that's a bit harder to contextualize in stats. We all know stats don't tell the whole story, but they definitely say Rashford is having a hell of a season where he can actually be legitimately compared to some of the greats in the game, at least in terms of output.
It's the manner of the replies to @do.ob , accusing him/her of agendas and such. Give more context by all means, but no need to start throwing such accusations.
The counter to this argument is that Rashford might not play as much in a much better team. Would he play as much if he was at PSG? Or Madrid? Or Barcelona? There's not just negatives to being in a worse team for individuals.
Maybe the ones who called all that had thier reasons and followed posting patterns that's goes beyond just 1 post.
Maybe that's the case. I haven't followed the thread that closely so I wouldn't know.
It just seemed a bit harsh to me to accuse the person of agendas when they were just posting penalty stats. I've seen the same used in the Lukaku thread, for instance, to explain why his numbers might currently be higher than usual. Usually it's normal to take penalties into account, and from there further discussions can be had.
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Then how about you follow the thread closely next time before saying something? That'd be a good start.
Not a crime to pop in and out of threads, is it? If the guy has an anti-Rashford agenda then I stand corrected on that, but I still think the penalty stat is a valid point of discussion.
Why are you separating penalties from the goal in the first place? It’s like saying separating tap in from the goal. Rashford doesn’t play as a no 9 like other names you mentioned, not every striker and forward can score penalty or even win the penalty. Rashford actually won 4 of his 5 league penalties. Got fouled by Zouma, Soyuncu, Sissoko and Silva. Proves the guy doesn’t just score goals only.
There won't be much argument, had Rashford taken his chances like Greenwood does.
Winning penalty is 1 thing, so did Young, but no one praise Young as the great penalty winner. The reason of taking penalty taking out of the equation, is that it is not open goal. In fact, I favour taking all set piece out of the equation but converting free kick is a skill so no point of further argument. Sometime the striker himself could be a decent penalty taker, but if there is a better taker, for the team sake you should let him do it.
Of course not imo, unless you're Messi, Ronaldo or Rooney it's almost impossible to break into the first team at that age in such clubs.
However this is another matter and not a good counter argument imo.
Weighted against the lego legged defender factor:
Rashford 14
Abraham 13
Mbappe 7
Sancho 7
Victor Osimhen 6
Martinez 6
Minutes per goal:
Tammy Abraham 129
Marcus Rashford 135
Kylian Mbappe 143
Jaden Sancho 169
Lautaro Martinez 219
Victor Osimhen 263
EPL *1
BL *0.75
SA *0.7
LU *0.6
Yeah, no, it doesn’t work that way. The length some will go to try and make Rashford shine even more than what he’s managed on his own.
Agree with all of that. Good post.
This. The "context" was obviously used to slate Rashford, but it backfired because he actually won almost all of those penalties himself. I doubt there are many players on these lists that do that on such a regular basis, I even doubt that there are many who have even won a single penalty.
It's a beautiful method. Based on BL having 75% of coefficient points of the PL and Ligue Un having 60%. I guessed Serie A but I'm sure its right. Context is important.Yeah, no, it doesn’t work that way. The length some will go to try and make Rashford shine even more than what he’s managed on his own.
It just seems like a strange method to try and make Rashford look better than he is, which is completely unnecessary as he's done great on his own this season, without these nonsense methods. The simple reason why this doesn't work is because it's not calculated that way for the golden boot for example. Unless you're playing outside of the top 5 leagues, at which point they will start to devalue goals. As shocking as it may be, it's not really harder to score in the Premier league or La Liga compared to the Bundesliga, Serie A, or Ligue 1; there's plenty of players who have demonstrated that in the past, and will continue to do so.
It's good to see you guessed around though, I'm sure that will make it a bit more valid and contextualized.