Yeah I had hoped LVG might switch things a bit, give Rooney a run at Zouma and get Fellaini on the right against Azpi/Matic as you said.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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Zouma stuck to him like glue - it was the kind of man marking job usually reserved for the likes of Messi and Ronaldo, which is a compliment in itself.
This is one of the reasons that Shaw got so much joy down that side though - you cant give so much attention to one player without leaving spaces elsewhere.
This is one of the reasons that Shaw got so much joy down that side though - you cant give so much attention to one player without leaving spaces elsewhere.
Should've had him off by half time. As the team dominating the ball, we need all our players to contribute to the offence, with the tactics set up by chelsea to counter his impact, he was hurting our play more than anything.
Perhaps, but I imagine if we had taken off Fellaini, Mourinho may have just rearranged accordingly. The better option would have been getting Falcao off, getting Rooney up front and put someone else into midfield (maybe Mata), let Fellaini act as DM if needed - its not like there was much defending to do in the second half.
Then chelsea would back themselves to pressure high up with the knowledge that 2 players in our back 3 are average on the ball. Get fellaini off, put Di Maria in midfield and let him penetrate that chelsea midfield. Reckon we'd have had more success doing that especially because Zouma would've then been a liability as he's not likely to stop someone as fleet footed as di maria in an open area.
Keeping the ball that well without someone who can breach the midfield line is pretty pointless. Neither Rooney or Hererra have that sort of game so we, for large parts of the game were going backwards and sideways. Ball retention without purpose.
It's because they got used to playing with other people, for example maybe blind makes the sort of runs (which shaw doesn't) that can free up young to be more effective. Mata probably relies on carrick a lot. It's the trio of carrick herrera and mata. Carrick was such a big miss. Also don't know what januzaj was doing.
Di Maria's main weapon at the moment is pace. Pace is meaningless against a team surrendering 70% possession and happy to sit back in their own half for the entire game (especially after they scored).
He's actually still managed to set up two clear-cut chances (Rooney and Falcao), both in the box and without looking into stats I imagine that's more than any other of our offensive players today has done.
Its control of the ball at pace with extreme agility and footwork. He doesn't really use his pace and ability to go beyond the defence so he's effective even when sitting back, that's the main reason why he was the motm in last years CL final. Even today he managed to find a way to get through chelsea and end up in the box.
maybe he wasn't so effective but how about Mourinho planned to man-mark him with Zouma to avoid danger coming from him, that is why they didn't put another creative midfielder in and why they struggle, we destroyed them in possession and overall game despite unfortunate result.. so I guess his contribution was there, created one big chance for Falcao and one another chesting down the ball... also one good defensive header that all is not good enough but he was sacrificed soother player had space to play.. if we dominate games like this with opponents preparing only for Fellaini than I am confident he should start, because we could smash almost anyone, Chelsea got lucky and were as organized as it gets, not many teams could do that to win it eventually 1:0.
For me still definite starter and van Gaal also mentioned he likes to play players to play their former clubs..
For me still definite starter and van Gaal also mentioned he likes to play players to play their former clubs..
Not his best game but he had it tough today with Matic/Zouma patrolling him. He wasn't poor though. Just not as effective as he has been lately. Same can be said about Mata who had Azpi rushing him all the time.
Unfortunately, for the most part this season his control has been poor, and he seems to simply be wanting to do a Jack Wilshere of just charging blindly into whichever opponent is in front of him and hoping he will come out the other side.
As @Kostur said, despite Zouma's attentions all game and Chelsea setting out to nullify him, Fellaini did still manage to create a great chance for Falcao, and the one for Rooney as well. He also made plenty of defensive headers and clearances - people today are undervaluing how important his height was when defending against a very tall Chelsea side.
Him being nullified wouldnt have been a problem if we had our actual starting line up imo. He was obviously being targeted by Zouma which means he could take an extra player out of Chelseas defence. But with a few of our players missing, we couldnt take full advantage on the other side (Mata/Herrera/Valencia was broken up) and thus couldnt exploit with Carrick to cover. Its a shame because hes going to have special treatment against him but at the same time, that allows space for others when we can take advantage (which we didnt fully today). Would have been interesting had we had all our players fit.
Did well defensively though.
Did well defensively though.
I was thinking, with the injuries we had, and with everyone expecting Zouma to start in midfield... would it have been an idea to start Fellaini up front? Hindsight is a wonderful thing and all, but the big man up top would have completely nullified Zouma in midfield - as he would then have had to perform like an actual midfielder, which would have seen him fall down.
This. The attention Chelsea paid to him created spaces elsewhere for us which helped shaw and co.
Shame we couldn't get our delivery right a number of times. He himself had some nice chances to put a ball in. Needs to work on that. Can't always be the target.
what? What are you basing this on? One match?Anyway, I thought he was below average. Basically the same as everyone else though. We were pretty blunted in attack all around. He had a couple of okay moments and I can see why he wasn't taken off. Without him our aerial presence is basically non-existent except for Smalling.
We seemed to have abandoned our use of Fellaini's physical attributes yesterday, perhaps as a way to outfox Mourinho's intent to neutralize him. Hope to see a few more long balls played to him against Everton.
No, based on watching him play for the last few years.
Id have liked to see a bit more of aerial balls from Young and Mata to Fellaini in these types of games. Fellaini can bring it down in dangerous areas for other players.
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We must have been watching different games then.
I doubt it, he's a big physical force that bullies teams, big asset to have, but when that is cancelled out by two bullies then he's neutered because he doesn't have the skill, pace, passing invention or technique to counter that. I don't see why this is an issue, horses for courses.
Regardless of those chances, he did us more harm than good. We couldn't put enough pressure on that defence which would've caused them to wilt. We've seen throughout the season that this chelsea isn't as good defensively as some of Mou's teams in the past. We basically took a man out of our attack by having him on the field. We needed everyone involved and when we had the ball in controlled possession, he was irrelevant.
Just read that story
Fellaini is obviously such a liability that Mourinho felt the need to sabotage his own side by playing Zouma in midfield specifically to counter him.
"We took a man out of our attack" even though in the post you quoted, I pointed out the Fellaini created two of our best chances.
"More harm than good" when Chelsea had adapted their tactics solely to deal with Fellaini. Take Fellaini out of the team and Chelsea/Mourinho's tactics change, and you are looking at a completely different game. You are just completely ignoring the context of the situation.
Yes, you're looking at a totally different game, one that I think we would be more likely to win than the one we engaged in. I'd back a hererra, di maria, and rooney midfield vs a combination of oscar, cesc and matic anyday. (Assuming he'd have zouma out of there once we made the change).
Fellaini is obviously such a liability that Mourinho felt the need to sabotage his own side by playing Zouma in midfield specifically to counter him.
"We took a man out of our attack" even though in the post you quoted, I pointed out the Fellaini created two of our best chances.
"More harm than good" when Chelsea had adapted their tactics solely to deal with Fellaini. Take Fellaini out of the team and Chelsea/Mourinho's tactics change, and you are looking at a completely different game. You are just completely ignoring the context of the situation.
The rooney chance he created was barely a chance. That leaves the Falcao one. I don't think him creating those chances makes up for how much he hurt our attacking play. We created very little throughout the match. We couldn't penetrate their midfield. Our major threat came from shaw which was quite sporadic. Basically job well done by jose's men.
Well, LVG evidently disagrees with your analysis.
You say yourself that we created very little, yet we have listed two good chances that Fellaini created - how many did the other attackers make?
This hasnt even touched on the defensive work he did against a very tall Chelsea team. Without Fellaini there, Chelsea would have been far superior to us in set piece situations.
Fellaini didnt have a great game, because Mourinho had specifically set out to counter him, and it worked. I agree that LVG should have changed the system, maybe drop Fellaini to DM or even push him up alongside Falcao - make Zouma unsure and uncomfortable. Either way though, some of the stuff you are coming out with here is just plain wrong, im afraid.
They created nothing cause our attacking play was poor for most of the game. Our midfield couldn't get its job done, which left our attackers with little to work with. He created one good chance. How many clearances did he make in set piece situations? What LVG thinks is irrelevant since what he though took us to a loss.
So you agree that tactical changes would have been warranted but without your precious Fellaini being taken out, I'm I getting that right? He's of no use to us at the DM position as he's pretty average on the ball which means they could've then pressed and competed for the ball in midfield with some success.
If we moved Fellaini to the DM, then all Zouma would've done is hold his position. Why not take him out and put di maria in thus making him even more uncomfortable trying to cope with a direct dribbling threat in midfield?
This is going round in circles. I already explained why I dont think it was a good idea to take off Fellaini;
1) He provides a defensive presence on set pieces against a very tall and powerful Chelsea side.
2) If we take him off, Mourinho can simply haul of Zouma and get them to actually start playing football again.
Your logic is flawed. If we moved Fellaini to DM and Zouma held position, then Herrera and Rooney would have had a field day running at Zouma through the middle. Taking Fellaini off on the other hand, not only weakens us at set pieces but allows Mourinho to simply revert to his/Chelsea's normal tactics - which in case you didnt notice, have won them the league.
1) So you think us being able to defend set pieces is more important than us winning the open play?
2) Exactly, I'd back us to win against them if they try to play football instead of what they did.
Your logic is flawed, rooney and Hererra don't have a great vertical game so regardless of who's there they aren't all that likely to go past him. Fellaini on the ball is a liability, so moving him to dm could've also caused chelsea to start pressing the ball know 2 of the central back 3 is average on the ball. These normal tactics of theirs led them to an embarrassing exit in the CL to PSG, its not foolproof. This current prem season has been poor, the teams they've competed against have had magic issues.
Point 1) The two are not mutually exclusive.
Point 2) You may back us to slug it out with Chelsea at Stamford Bridge, but that doesnt make it so.
Your statements are getting more and more desperate - we are now at the level of "Fellaini on the ball is a liability", which is obvious nonsense. Perhaps its time to just accept that you really dont like Fellaini, and leave it at that.
Mourinho was Di Maria's manager and probably knows better than anybody how to shut him down, furthermore Di Maria himself has looked poor and sloppy in midfield. The fact that Rooney is not creative or smart enough to play the Carrick role has been established for years. The game was lost because of a defensive error and we weren't as good as we have been because Carrick wasn't playing balls in between the lines to Herrera/Mata/Fellaini.
As others have said take Fellaini out and put Di Maria in and you'll probably see Willian tearing up the Shaw all game.
As others have said take Fellaini out and put Di Maria in and you'll probably see Willian tearing up the Shaw all game.
1. They are, as playing fellaini takes one ball playing option out of our team.
2. Guess I believe too much in our team.
He is, we all know he's limited technically, that should be obvious to anyone that's watched him play. Has nothing to do with me not liking him or whatever.
Yes exactly. He's been one of our top 3 players this season, but we need to replace him(In the starting 11) with a better technical midfielder for next season. He will still start and play plenty of games next season too no doubt.
Everton 3:0 Man Utd
Think LVG might think about taking him off, he's a red card waiting to happen.
The refs given everything against him and has given him nothing.
The refs given everything against him and has given him nothing.
They are playing him like a fiddle and the ref is buying into it, I think LvG might need to think about taking him off before he gets sent off.
Been poor, wondered how he would cope once teams started to target him again and based on the Chelsea game and today it's not looking good. He has to come off at half time, he will be sent off without a shadow of a doubt and that really will be game over.
What I don't get is, why for the second goal is he stood close to the near post yet we have Valencia marking Stones.
Playing poorly, lucky not to get sent off. I really hate it when players grab the ball just because they think they should have a free kick. Fellaini does it all the time, to do it when you're on a yellow is moronic. Needs to be subbed.
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