Martial is our most important player

Green_Red

Full Member
Joined
May 29, 2013
Messages
8,281
I felt like Brunos energy against Chelsea injected a bit of energy into the rest of the forwards. Martial I thought did well against Chelsea too. He also seems to be a lot better when Rashford is in the team so maybe it's a case that he struggles to lead the attack on his own, which is fair enough. Hopefully, if Bruno is bringing some needed energy and leadership to the front, Martial will kick on a bit from now until the end of the season.
 

Kappa123

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 6, 2019
Messages
170
Location
corona research lab
Ridiculous to even consider Martial as a key player. Might as well hand over our status as a big club if Martial is the one we rely on.

Bruno
Rashford
Fred
De Gea
McTominay

Those are our key players, the ones we should build around for the time being.
 

wolvored

Full Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2016
Messages
6,076
Martial went from the focal point of the team, top goalscorer with 2600 mins as a 18/19 year old under LVG in 15/16, to averaging ~1000 mins less, a bit part player, shunted out on the wing under Mourinho for the past 3 years. 3 years is huge. I don't care who they are, that is going to significantly affect any young player's development. It's not like he has been a key player throughout his time here.

This is the first year since, he has again, become a focal point of the team. He's already surpassed his PL minutes for the whole of last season, (1638 vs 1623). There has been clear improvement in his stats from last season (9G+3A in 20 PL games vs 10G+3A in PL 27 games).

I don't know where the stereotype of him being stupid comes from? When next to top talent, he has never had a problem being on the same wave-length. Anyone watching our matches can see, he has been the one constant, providing the clever movement and linking the attack together, for the rest of the attack to thrive.

Also, he is only 24. Your list of top strikers that highlighted where they were at the same age is true. People need to have patience.
Where is the clear improvement?
 

VeevaVee

despite the protests, wears Ugg boots
Scout
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
41,235
Location
Manchester
Take Rashford's penalties away, and Martial has performed to an almost identical level, no debate. Yet Rashford is having the season of his life and Martial needs to be sold?
Classic case of people refusing to actually use their eyes, which is becoming ever more noticeable as time goes on.

May as well start watching football through rolling stats at this point.
 

VeevaVee

despite the protests, wears Ugg boots
Scout
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
41,235
Location
Manchester
The best performing teams these days; have their wide men as the top scorers though. But for Martial to have similar stats to our main threat is more than adequate at this point.
In that case Martial needs to be supporting the wide players like Firmino does, by disrupting the defence. He does sometimes, but it's a rare treat.
 

MadMike

Full Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2015
Messages
8,974
Location
London
Classic case of people refusing to actually use their eyes, which is becoming ever more noticeable as time goes on.

May as well start watching football through rolling stats at this point.
Or... or... people are using their eyes, have a different opinion to yours and that opinion is also backed up by stats.

Why is it that every time someone brings up stats, people assume that the argument is based exclusively on stats rather than simply supported by them? Is there a more unintelligent counter-argument than "use your eyes"? I sincerely doubt it.
 

Sky1981

Fending off the urge
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
25,725
Location
Under the bright neon lights of sincity
Undoubtedly true, but I'm not sure what it's supposed to mean in this context? There's plenty of players that did play for United at 19, and went through a relatively sudden transformation in their early to mid 20s. Likewise with players across many top teams.
What I meant is Martial was already playing for 1st tier team, under top manager (top is relative, but he wasn't a journeymen coached by lower division coach), if he had it in him to improve he would have done them now.
 

Shark

@NotShark
Joined
Feb 1, 2012
Messages
22,301
Location
Ireland
Ridiculous to even consider Martial as a key player. Might as well hand over our status as a big club if Martial is the one we rely on.

Bruno
Rashford
Fred
De Gea
McTominay

Those are our key players, the ones we should build around for the time being.
:lol:

Yeah because key players don’t put you 0-1 in front at Stamford Bridge on the brink of half time. Laughable that you also included Bruno as a key player when he’s played two games for us.
 

VeevaVee

despite the protests, wears Ugg boots
Scout
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
41,235
Location
Manchester
Or... or... people are using their eyes, have a different opinion to yours and that opinion is also backed up by stats.

Why is it that every time someone brings up stats, people assume that the argument is based exclusively on stats rather than simply supported by them? Is there a more unintelligent counter-argument than "use your eyes"? I sincerely doubt it.
Or....or....there's a lot of people here that don't build opinions by actually watching football and instead totally rely on stats and/or the media. See all those who slated De Gea when he first came because the media told them to. See those who rate Lukaku despite punting the ball into the crowd with his first touch on the reg or falling over it. See those that to this day rate LVG for 'sorting the defence' because of his clean sheets, despite that only happening because we played horrendous keepball etc. etc.
 

Bebestation

Full Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2019
Messages
3,137
In that case Martial needs to be supporting the wide players like Firmino does, by disrupting the defence. He does sometimes, but it's a rare treat.
No one complained about Martial when Rashford & Greenwood/James is in the team though.

The hate restarted when everyone around him became suppliers & Martial struggled leading the line by himself just like Firmino would without Mane & Salah in the team & got replaced by chamberlain & Shaqiri. I don't care if Firmino works harder - would make no difference to Liverpool's output.

Anyway I genuinely can't be bothered - this is just a rinse and repeat of people who can see what Martial brings to the team and in particular - to a certain group of players & people who have genuinely given up on him & can't stand the guy.

I just find the hate is over exaggerated.

Lingard levels of failure. Pogba levels of disrespect, Jones levels of injuries & Martials getting middle fingers by a lot of our fans.

I find his work rate is unfairly criticized too. Yes there is something about his runs in to the box but he does the complete opposite thing - he doesn't just stand there and wait for the game to drift so he ends up deep, he drops back deep as a striker to find the ball in deep spaces. I've found him in CM spaces, I've found him clear chances from corners, his pressing has significantly improved which he constantly tries until he realises that the pass has been made - then he drops deep again to find the ball to feet. Rinse and repeat.

Anyway I think many people have made their mind up already and the same would be said about the people who see the positives he brings to the players around him.
 
Last edited:

VeevaVee

despite the protests, wears Ugg boots
Scout
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
41,235
Location
Manchester
No one complained about Martial when Rashford & Greenwood/James is in the team though.

The hate restarted when everyone around him became suppliers & Martial struggled leading the line by himself just like Firmino would without Mane & Salah in the team & got replaced by chamberlain & Shaqiri. I don't care if Firmino works harder - would make no difference to Liverpool's output.

Anyway I genuinely can't be bothered - this is just a rinse and repeat of people who can see what Martial brings to the team and in particular - to a certain group of players & people who have genuinely given up on him & can't stand the guy.

I just find the hate is over exaggerated.

Lingard levels of failure. Pogba levels of disrespect, Jones levels of injuries & Martials getting middle fingers by a lot of our fans.
Martial and Rashford have been much better to watch than whoever with Lukaku in the middle, that's for sure. It was immediately noticeable and mentioned on here by more than a few, including me. I think plenty would say that whilst also suggesting that Martial can be improved on.
 

Majima

Full Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2016
Messages
3,603
Location
Kami's Lookout
Where is the clear improvement?
He is on course to smash his record from last season. Practically equaled it already. GA every 1.66 games this season vs GA every 2.07 games last season.

He is obviously working on his weaknesses, seen in his goal on Monday.

Our ceiling as an attack is much higher with him as the focal point, than last season.
 

Brwned

Have you ever been in love before?
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
48,913
What I meant is Martial was already playing for 1st tier team, under top manager (top is relative, but he wasn't a journeymen coached by lower division coach), if he had it in him to improve he would have done them now.
Nor was Andy Cole. The reality is there are many players that improved significantly at a top club after a few years in their early 20s. The notion that if you haven't made it at a top club by the time you're 24, you won't make it, simply doesn't fit the evidence. Some players fade into mediocrity after that point, some gradually improve, some explode onto the scene.
 

RUCK4444

Full Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
4,573
Location
FIFA Headquarters
Do you honestly think Zaha and Traore are better than Martial? I also have to ask why you're comparing him to wide players?
I didn’t say they are better players, what I’m asking people to question and compare is his desire to continually run at players and effect the game over 90 mins.

The players I mentioned are forwards that run for 90 mins and more importantly make their presence known on the pitch.

Think about what a difference it makes having a Suarez type running and running, setting the tempo for the players behind him. I don’t believe Martial will ever have that drive.

Some great players don’t, Berbatov for example, doesn’t make them a poor player but that type doesn’t tend to last long at United imo.

This team and setup we have currently does not lend itself to lazy or inconsistent runners. What’s your thoughts?
 

He'sRaldo

Full Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2019
Messages
2,308
In that case Martial needs to be supporting the wide players like Firmino does, by disrupting the defence. He does sometimes, but it's a rare treat.
The way Firmino defends in their front three is purely systematic, and I think it's a lot more clever than our setup.

We ask Martial to make forward runs, recovery runs, lead the press, and come deep all at the same time, even in the same periods of time in a game. Whereas Firmino does the recovery runs and comes deep when either of Mane or Salah makes a run forward, sharing the workload in a very efficient way. Martial not playing the same way is not down to laziness, but due to the different setup of our team.
 

tjb

Full Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2013
Messages
1,546
It's probably enough basis to get rid and I would have absolutely not one problem transfer listing him, if not one obstacle: We have a few, maybe even more players in selling order that needs to go, right now, in this moment, no discussion and it's definitely not Paul Pogba.

If we'll clear out the squad of jokers and get player like Jadon Sancho then be my guest and show Martial the door, but I still think he could up his game with more flashy players around him. Marcus Rashford is a living proof of that and with him injured we need to rely on Tony for a few months more.

I think we were actually very close to decsion to let go of Martial if only Haland wanted Premier League move this year. At this time let's have hopes for Greenwood and Ighalo, perhaps it will be a pleasant surprise.

One problem to add is that Tony is 24 year old and at this age we can clearly demand somekind of consistency. What a time to prove it.
On skill, of course not on Pogba. But I think we HAVE to let Pogba go for this team to move forward. We can't have a situation where an agent is constantly berating the club. It doesn't matter how skilled of a player he is, we can't have a player who does not want to be here. He would be the first to go. We can afford to sign other skilled players. Like most people, you worry that the club may not be capable of making the right decision in the market.
 

The Mitcher

connoisseur of pot noodles and sandwiches
Joined
May 26, 2012
Messages
16,779
Location
Manchester
The goal masked what was a very poor first half with him doing what he usually does. Sulk when things don't go his way, and not showing enough graft and fight. In the second half he was ok, but that was it.
 

Raven

Full Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
3,419
Location
Ireland
I didn’t say they are better players, what I’m asking people to question and compare is his desire to continually run at players and effect the game over 90 mins.

The players I mentioned are forwards that run for 90 mins and more importantly make their presence known on the pitch.

Think about what a difference it makes having a Suarez type running and running, setting the tempo for the players behind him. I don’t believe Martial will ever have that drive.

Some great players don’t, Berbatov for example, doesn’t make them a poor player but that type doesn’t tend to last long at United imo.

This team and setup we have currently does not lend itself to lazy or inconsistent runners. What’s your thoughts?
I think you need to watch these players more.
 

RUCK4444

Full Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
4,573
Location
FIFA Headquarters
I think you need to watch these players more.
Martial fan boy I see.

You can’t be watching much footie if you think Martial runs more than any of those players, or indeed influences the game as much.
 

Van Piorsing

Lost his light sabre
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
19,277
Location
Polska
On skill, of course not on Pogba. But I think we HAVE to let Pogba go for this team to move forward. We can't have a situation where an agent is constantly berating the club. It doesn't matter how skilled of a player he is, we can't have a player who does not want to be here. He would be the first to go. We can afford to sign other skilled players. Like most people, you worry that the club may not be capable of making the right decision in the market.
If we can't deal with football agents, we may have a very big problem in this club and it may cause problems in future when signing other big players. Pogba and Martial heading straight through the door while no news about Lingard, Jones and Pereira departing can be a prelude for another disappointing year.

We have to deal with players who can't hit the ball straight, first, then we can easily start selling players that actually can do something productive on the pitch, but have mentality / attitude issues.
 

sp_107

Full Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
1,698
Location
Yorkshire
I think he plays well with some support next to him. What about a diamond formation for rest of the season as Rashford is now out of equation.

OR you think any other formation with different players can bring the best our of this current squad?

-----------------------Martial-----------------Ighalo/Mason--------------------

-------------------------------------Bruno-------------------------------------------------

--------------Pogba-----------------------------Fred-----------------------------------

----------------------------------SMT/Matic---------------------------------------------

--Williams---------------Maguire--------Baily--------------------AWB-----------
 

Raven

Full Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
3,419
Location
Ireland
Martial fan boy I see.

You can’t be watching much footie if you think Martial runs more than any of those players, or indeed influences the game as much.
I'm saying not many players are at it for 90 minutes straight. A lot of top players go through baron spells in matches and runs of form. You seem to have this notion that these players don't have any poor performances.
 

Kappa123

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 6, 2019
Messages
170
Location
corona research lab
I think he plays well with some support next to him. What about a diamond formation for rest of the season as Rashford is now out of equation.

OR you think any other formation with different players can bring the best our of this current squad?

-----------------------Martial-----------------Ighalo/Mason--------------------

-------------------------------------Bruno-------------------------------------------------

--------------Pogba-----------------------------Fred-----------------------------------

----------------------------------SMT/Matic---------------------------------------------

--Williams---------------Maguire--------Baily--------------------AWB-----------
This would be ideal with Fred on the left, but Pogba is out. Who do we have that can do a job in this setup? Certainly not Mata or Lingard.

Maybe Bruno on the right and Greenwood as a makeshift CAM but that seems sketchy too...
 

RUCK4444

Full Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
4,573
Location
FIFA Headquarters
I'm saying not many players are at it for 90 minutes straight. A lot of top players go through baron spells in matches and runs of form. You seem to have this notion that these players don't have any poor performances.
Where did I say they don’t have poor performances?

Again, what I’m saying is the top players are at it for 90 mins.

Would Martial get into Liverpool’s side with his lack of constant running? Would he feck, it’s not ability it’s the lack of desire.
 

tjb

Full Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2013
Messages
1,546
If we can't deal with football agents, we may have a very big problem in this club and it may cause problems in future when signing other big players. Pogba and Martial heading straight through the door while no news about Lingard, Jones and Pereira departing can be a prelude for another disappointing year.

We have to deal with players who can't hit the ball straight, first, then we can easily start selling players that actually can do something productive on the pitch, but have mentality / attitude issues.
We can't act like this is normal. There's a reason why a lot of the top teams aren't dealing with him. We were better where we were before in our stance before we started star chasing. Couthinho left liverpool and they got better for it. It's not like Pogba's influence leads us anywhere either, he's no Hazard or Suarez or Bale. We are 7th without him and were 6th with him.
 

Zlatans Knee

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 24, 2017
Messages
250
Where did I say they don’t have poor performances?

Again, what I’m saying is the top players are at it for 90 mins.

Would Martial get into Liverpool’s side with his lack of constant running? Would he feck, it’s not ability it’s the lack of desire.
That is a silly comment. Different players have different styles of play. Take Messi or Aguero as examples, are they at it for 90 mins? I am not saying that Martial is at their level, merely that it is not true to say that the top players are at it for 90 mins. Some run more than others, that is all. Also, teams have different systems so the strikers are asked to perform different roles. Klopp only wants players who can run all day for him. Would there be a role for Messi in this Liverpool team do you think?
 

Van Piorsing

Lost his light sabre
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
19,277
Location
Polska
We can't act like this is normal. There's a reason why a lot of the top teams aren't dealing with him. We were better where we were before in our stance before we started star chasing. Couthinho left liverpool and they got better for it. It's not like Pogba's influence leads us anywhere either, he's no Hazard or Suarez or Bale. We are 7th without him and were 6th with him.
Our whole midfield is not normal and you seem to be okay with stripping it's down with it's best player like it's so easy to do. We didn't even replaced Herrera properly and we supposed to let Pogba go, while Matić more and more needs replacing.

Replacing Pogba with better player won't be easy because the only upgrade on him are best midfielders in the world. His frustrations about Manchester United are pretty much the same as many other supporters. We are flooded with shit players and it's impossible to go anywhere from there.

Building new midfield will require superb scouting like you mentioned with Pool after selling Coutinho and I have serious doubts Ed, Ole and current stuff can perform such operation after six years of absolute chaos. These people can't hire DoF, couldn't handle Herrera's simple contract situation and when it comes to replacing players the deals are delayed at least half a year, or simply never happen after stages of negotiations. Do you think they'll find someone proper in the same window after selling Pogba, because I have serious doubts.

It's painfully easy to see that Raiola wants to negotiate the most lucrative new contract from United and it's definitely more promising to watch Pogba and Bruno rather telling yourself another season Lingard is a football player.

Let's sign really cracking players first, because last summer we had another huge spending and none of Maguire, Bissaka and James are world class and they definitely don't give us bigger impact than Pogba.

As for Martial he's currently our best dribbler with Rashford gone and that should tell you something about actual state of this team. If you want to sell Martial and Pogba, we better have something really big in store.
 
Last edited:

TRUERED89

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 23, 2019
Messages
2,366
Location
England
Stats aside, the simple eye test tells me Rashford has been performing better than Martial. He contributes more when he doesn't score.

Agree with those who say that they need each other though; both are clearly better when the other one is playing.
Have you forgotten the “is it time to burst Rashy’s bubble” thread ? He was slaughtered when Martial was out.
 

Hawks2008

Full Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2015
Messages
4,513
Location
Melbz
For some he will always be perfect and never accountable for any of his failings during 200ish games for the club so far.

Personally think we'd be better off with an actual striker but good luck moving him on with his 250k wages, maybe we'll get lucky and inter will come calling again.
 

Hammondo

Full Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2015
Messages
2,474
Using James these past 2 months have been like having 10 men. You think continuing like this is fine?
I did not say it was, thats a straw-man fallacy.
Our whole midfield is not normal and you seem to be okay with stripping it's down with it's best player like it's so easy to do. We didn't even replaced Herrera properly and we supposed to let Pogba go, while Matić more and more needs replacing.

Replacing Pogba with better player won't be easy because the only upgrade on him are best midfielders in the world. His frustrations about Manchester United are pretty much the same as many other supporters. We are flooded with shit players and it's impossible to go anywhere from there.

Building new midfield will require superb scouting like you mentioned with Pool after selling Coutinho and I have serious doubts Ed, Ole and current stuff can perform such operation after six years of absolute chaos. These people can't hire DoF, couldn't handle Herrera's simple contract situation and when it comes to replacing players the deals are delayed at least half a year, or simply never happen after stages of negotiations. Do you think they'll find someone proper in the same window after selling Pogba, because I have serious doubts.

It's painfully easy to see that Raiola wants to negotiate the most lucrative new contract from United and it's definitely more promising to watch Pogba and Bruno rather telling yourself another season Lingard is a football player.

Let's sign really cracking players first, because last summer we had another huge spending and none of Maguire, Bissaka and James are world class and they definitely don't give us bigger impact than Pogba.

As for Martial he's currently our best dribbler with Rashford gone and that should tell you something about actual state of this team. If you want to sell Martial and Pogba, we better have something really big in store.
Bruno is already an upgrade imo.
 

Tel074

New Member
Joined
May 8, 2019
Messages
1,531
Or... or... people are using their eyes, have a different opinion to yours and that opinion is also backed up by stats.

Why is it that every time someone brings up stats, people assume that the argument is based exclusively on stats rather than simply supported by them? Is there a more unintelligent counter-argument than "use your eyes"? I sincerely doubt it.
He was right though . Rashford brings way way more to the team than goals while Martial is up there with Nani as one of the most frustrating players ever
 

Tel074

New Member
Joined
May 8, 2019
Messages
1,531
I'm saying not many players are at it for 90 minutes straight. A lot of top players go through baron spells in matches and runs of form. You seem to have this notion that these players don't have any poor performances.

A bare minimum for any player is to work hard . That is a issue United fans have with Martial
 

Tel074

New Member
Joined
May 8, 2019
Messages
1,531
That is a silly comment. Different players have different styles of play. Take Messi or Aguero as examples, are they at it for 90 mins? I am not saying that Martial is at their level, merely that it is not true to say that the top players are at it for 90 mins. Some run more than others, that is all. Also, teams have different systems so the strikers are asked to perform different roles. Klopp only wants players who can run all day for him. Would there be a role for Messi in this Liverpool team do you think?
Would their be a role for Messi in Liverpool's team ? Is that even a serious question
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
6,781
Ridiculous to even consider Martial as a key player. Might as well hand over our status as a big club if Martial is the one we rely on.

Bruno
Rashford
Fred
De Gea
McTominay

Those are our key players, the ones we should build around for the time being.
So clearly you judge things on what you the last game?

Bruno is not a key player, he has played 2 games
Martial has scored 13 league goals this season btw.
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
6,781
He has scored 9 league goals... Not 13.

Huge difference
My mistake, 9 league goals in a team that doesn't create much and injured for 2 months of the season.

If he gets 15 goals this season, it would be a decent return.
 

Zlatans Knee

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 24, 2017
Messages
250
Would their be a role for Messi in Liverpool's team ? Is that even a serious question
It really is. I don't mean that I would not have him. Messi is the best player in the World but as I said Klopp wants players who will fulfill specific roles in his formation. Firmino is crucial to that formation. So which one of the front 3 would get dropped? I think Salah would be most likely.
It is the same with Martial, you know what you are getting with him. He will not run non stop for 90 mins like other strikers, but he is capable of moments of brilliance. What we have to do is either ensure that our formation caters to his style of playing or else find another number 9 who is capable of playing according to the formation and system that we want to play. No point in trying to fit round pegs in square holes and vice versa.
 

Shaw Mee Tah Mané

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 4, 2019
Messages
155
Martial is a player with great strengths and great weaknesses. He have the physics, ball control and actually most of footballing skills. But his weaknesses is all about the head: instinct, composure, concentration and work rate.

It’s good it’s not the other way around at least. The manager that get his head together will manage a great footballer.
 

Volumiza

Natural mincer
Joined
Jul 13, 2018
Messages
5,644
Location
Somewhere in the middle
Martial is a player with great strengths and great weaknesses. He have the physics, ball control and actually most of footballing skills. But his weaknesses is all about the head: instinct, composure, concentration and work rate.

It’s good it’s not the other way around at least. The manager that get his head together will manage a great footballer.
This is it exactly for me. He frustrates me more than anyone else which is why I give him a hard time (which probably has more to say about my temperament than anything else) because he literally has all the physical tools to be an incredible footballer, not just a good one ... every now and then. He should be stronger against the opposition, he's not a small lad physically. Speed. technique. He has it all and I just want to see him using it all better and more consistently.