Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Damien, Aug 11, 2019.
This is 100% true, no more excuses. Give them time though
This season they have to step up considering club and Ole trust them to lead the attack and they both will be first choice players this season. Also don't think we should expect them to be finished products this season, they have time to develop. This will be their first season where they are expected to carry the attack.
Also one more point is usually ignored is, after first season Martial barely played 50% of league mins in last 3 seasons, so we can't expect him to score many goals when he isn't even playing. Same with Rashford, his game time was limited too.
So this season they will play lot of mins, which should help their goal scoring record.
In last 5 years only 7 players have scored 20 or more league goals without taking penalties, 4 of them are pure CFs and Mane, Salah, Sanchez were at their peak.
20 league goals is not very important as long as the player is contributing to the team with his overall game. Tbf to Martial, he has looked good when not in possession which was one of the big issue in last few seasons. He is working hard, pressing the CBs and even attempted sliding tackle/interception which I never saw him doing before this season.
The notion that we can just sell an inconsistent but very productive young player is out of touch with our current reality. We aren't City or Bayern who are guaranteed to replace that kind of production with whomever they stumble on in the transfer market.
Hasn't he already said that the left wing is his best position, but when needed he can play the 9
The difference between last season and this season will be consistency playing and a positive manager.
Its very easy to forget Rashford is 21
We could legitimately be 6/7 years away from the best version of him. Hes improved so much since his breakout campaign so despite my frustrations with him sometimes its exciting to see where he could get to
Well it depends really on if the team is setup to have our striker score our to make space for the widemen or to drop deep. Every team has a game plan going into every game and how they plan to score goals will obviously be a big part of it.
All the players listed above scoring 20+ goals don't score that much by chance, they are expected to score that much and their team will be setup to make space and provide for these players as they are their main goalscorer/s for the team. Most of those players like Kane, Salah, Aguero are either winning trophies or are challenging and alot of that is down to the goals scored by the players who are scoring 20 to 30 goals. Goals win games and if we want to challenge for trophies this year we will need goals from somewhere.
Last week I had a lunch with Dwight Yorke here in Vietnam. We talked about the partnership between Martial & Rashford, and compared them with Yorke & Cole.
Yorke had some really good comments about Rashford, and he insisted that both of them are still young, they will tend to do complicated things, but they will learn.
I agree with the general point you are making but 20+ league goals is not easy. Even in that list, how many players have done it consistently?
Mane had his first 20 goal season,
Salah has 1 (last season he scored 18 or 19 excluding penalties),
Sanchez had 1 season,
Lukaku had 1 20 plus goals season.
Only Costa, Kane and Aguero had more than one season and all these players are pure CFs. Shows how hard it is to score 20 plus league goals in a season, especially for players who don't take penalties or don't play as#9.
Like you said, it also depends on the set up. We should improve the overall team performance for our attackers to score more goals. Creating chances shouldn't be one off even in the game, it should be consistent.
Very nice, great player was key to the treble season and after reading his book seems like a great character haha. It's rare you see a partnership like Yorke and Cole or Shearer and Sutton or Henry and Bergkamp anymore as teams rarely play with two strikers anymore but as Yorke said the more they play together especially in games not just training they will be build up a connection that will only improve.
Mkhitaryan and Fellaini still in top 10. Feck me.
I think having Greenwood on the pitch or Gomes could be an asset in breaking teams down. We need more players that can take people on.
It's definitely not easy to score 20+ but look at the players that are and have done so before all are playing to top clubs and are considered to be some of the best strikers in their leagues and some the world. This is level that top strikers need to be aiming for and it's now upto Rashford and Martial to get there. Do they want to be a striker, LW, CF it's partly down to them to improve in areas of the game that applies with the position they play.
When we were under Ferguson we almost always had at least 1 player with 20+ goals and that was always our main striker/attacker. That was expected from the top striker at one of the best clubs in the world. Simply put we need goals from somewhere and preferably alot of them, if not our strikers then who else is gonna chip in? Lingard maybe 5 max, Pogba I would say around 10 then maybe a goal or 2 on average from the rest that would roughly put us around 40 goals scored excluding Martial and Rashford. You see now that someone will have to step up for us and it's a chance for the two of them to do so. Aim high and keep climbing.
Rashford can reach 20 with penalties. If he takes them all.
Pogba's goals will come down though.
Suprised Pogba's given penalty taking duty to Rashford to be honest so if he stay taking them he should be aiming for 30 so easy
The players who scored 20 plus league goals are playing for the teams which creates many chances too. It's not just on individuals. Liverpool, Spurs, City creates many chances. That's what I said, as a team we should improve in creating chances if we expect many goals from players. It should be team effort.
In the last few seasons, if our strikers missed one chance, we talked about it till the next game as we were poor at creating chance and every chance missed is a points dropped (exaggerating bit but that's how poor we were in general play and creating chances).
Hold up now I never said the striker had to do it alone and of course its a team effort because its a team game. Chances being created is down to many players in a team and not just the striker or forwards in any team.
What I was trying to say was that we should be aiming to challenge the top teams and the top teams are not just defending well but scoring alot more goals than us among'st others and the majority of the goal scoring opportunity will more than likely fall to our strikers? So if that is the case should our strikers not be aiming to score at least 20+ goals like other top strikers around the world? Because that's what we need if we want to challenge and that's what the strikers need to do to be top strikers. Yes the whole team needs to improve and there's alot of work ahead every player will play its part but the topic of the thread is regarding Martial and Rashfords potential and I think you may be going off topic.
People get too hung up on age. Rashford 21. Martial 23.
Yeah, these gents are young, but you need to put perspective around it.
The reality is both of these players have, albeit inconsistently, been in and around our first team for a number of years at this stage.
Therefore I don’t think you can simply say they are young and so can’t expect too much. Likewise I don’t think it’s correct to say that this season is make or break.
For me, this season I’m not expecting both to become finished articles but I’m expecting to see serious progress of improving weaknesses in their games, and to show progress towards proving they can shoulder the responsibility of not just being that young and talented player, but being someone who is expected to produce regularly.
I’m really confident they can step up. They’re both hugely talented.
Martial has all the hallmarks of a young gifted tricky player - inconsistent but clearly has the skill and trickery to beat people. He’s great at finishing. Bags of pace. His risks? Will he consistently improve his work rate? Yesterday was a positive step. Also, eventually said young gifted players either go one of three ways - 1. remain inconsistent; 2. figure it out and become truly devastating; or 3. Find an appropriate interim where you balance the simple with the outrageous. For me this year, I’m hoping to see some progress towards either 2 or 3 from Martial. He’s also a confidence player.
Rashford is rapid. Cool when in front of goal. He’s very physical and has a great mentality and tenacity about him. An unheralded part of his game is his runs: he makes great runs. I don’t see too many risks for Rashford, to be honest. I’m not sure what his peak will be but he will in my view be a very very good player st the very least. Perhaps consistency in scoring is what he needs to guarantee. And needs to ensure he does the basics correct consistently (often misplaced passes). His final ball too, perhaps.
But their success also heavily depends on the players around them and what the create for them. They need those balls like Pogba sent in for Rashford. Perhaps this is their greatest risk to success. Outside of Pogba I’m not sure who can consistently deliver assists for them (and Pogba himself might not even be that consistent).
Is that you devilish? You rebranding?
Not always the case, take Liverpool as example. Firmino is their CF but Mane and Salah ends up in goal scoring positions. There are few more examples.
We are trying to play fluid game so most of the time Rashford and Martial will be changing positions. If Martial was limited player who just plays on the shoulder of the defenders then I agree, without goals he will be useless. But that's not the scenario we have, we have players who are good footballers than just goal scorers, they move all over the place and even drop deeper to involve in the build up play.
I agree that Rashford and Martial should be scoring lot more than their previous records but I don't agree with "If not 20 league goals, they should be moved on" point and that's the point I'm arguing against.
Also I disagree with 'at least 20+ goals part', only 3 players have scored 20 plus league goals without taking penalties, that itself shows how high the bar is.
I expect them to score many goals but the general point 'minimum 20 league goals' is just setting bar too high to end up in disappointment. If it's a pure #9 then yes, they should score goals as that's the only contribution they will make but someone like Martial and Rashford who are not pure 9s.
The dream combination would be Alexis, Rashford and Martial.
Alexis, please no more bad luck this season.
Sit them down and make them watch every clip of Dwight and Yorke on YouTube.
I just hope they play together and don’t start competing with each other. It may be that one of them needs to make the mature decision for the rest of the team to be more ‘support’
Martial got the number 9, Rashford taking penalties is maybe a compromise to spread the goals a little.
Healthy competition is great but only up until it affects general teamplay and decision making.
Great post, they both need to learn how to drop the shoulder and beat a man when running into a heavily marked area. So often they run into trouble and just lose the ball. Sterling always seems to skip through with the ball. Both players were better at this when they first broke into the team, but it seems that this has been drilled out of them.
Yeah, when you see some of the players in our current top 10 goalscorers, it is concerning.
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No, I have only one nick here, and rarely post because they categorized me as a newbie, so I usually read-only.
They seem to get on really well. I think it is the press/pundits who create the story with all this 'main man' stuff.
We don't have a main man. We have a team. It is why Man City and Liverpool are currently so successful. All their attackers can score and create. Salah, Firmino and Sane / Sterling, Aguero and B Silva. We are starting to build that with Rashford, Martial and Lingard and over the season perhaps one from James, Sanchez or Greenwood.
I’m just kidding just alluding to dev, who has regaled this forum with details from his close chats with players and staff when they’ve visited Malta ;P
This. How many guaranteed 20 goal a season strikers are available right now? I challenge anyone to name five.
We need to be looking for 20+ goals from each of them this season, this should be achievable if they stay fit and are the main men up top.
Pogba looks to be playing deeper, so whoever plays 10 and RW need to chip in with a few. That should be a reason why Greenwood looks to start.
I don't think Martial does, yet, have the positional instincts of a natural goalscorer, and it's the part of his game he most needs to improve. It was great to see him getting that second goal yesterday as it's exactly the sort of goal that the main striker should be picking up on a regular basis. Hopefully he'll take some encouragement from it and work to get into dangerous central positions more often.
I think your assessment of Rashford is harsh, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if he finished as our top scorer this season.
It's time to deliver, and if they don't, we will need to get in a prolific scorer next season.
I am still dreaming of a United dream attacking team. And how can you become a top quality players without top quality teammates?Like the assist pass from Pogba to Rashford?
So to give Martial and Rashford better support. I would luv to add Sancho on the right side. Assist passes from the right side ala Walker to Jesus. Or City opposite Sane to Sterling on the left. Same receipt.
In with Sancho and Chiesa on each side.
Sancho - McTom - Pogba/Bruno - Chiesa
Rashford - Martial
Chiesa same hard work/aggresive mentality and speed as Rashford. A really determination, skillful and versatile player on the left. Same level with Sancho on the right.
Like i said. Even it were only Rashford and Martial. You can see how fast it can goes for some premier league opponents. And you add same speed and football skill sets in Sancho and Chiesa. And like said. Those boys together will be to fast and skillful for premier league league. And they are too good with the ball. They will come up on the same level as City and Liverpool, when it come to keep the ball in the team. And explode when its right and most efficient.
And if Pogba is leaving in the future. The ideal replacement for Pogba is Bruno Fernandes. Why Fernandes, Because i want someone who can suit and cope with pace and skills of Sancho, Rashford, Martial and Chiesa level. And Fernandes is a easy on the toes player. It mean he can run alot and cover ground a lot.
Trust me. With adding Chiesa and Sancho. Then United can match City and Liverpool in the attack and theirs consistent in the attack. Same high speed and skills. And same high precise movement and passing.
2/3 more players then my dream team come true.
Chiesa 21 age from Fiorentina
They are all young. Be patience. Let the gel and understand each others. Which they will do quick. Because of they good football vision and head. How movement and passing. A combination football shall play.
Then i can promise. About 2-3 years. You will a team that will dominate over 5 years.
Buy top quality football players around Rashford age. Build a future dominate team. Then Chiesa ans Sancho fits the bill and click all the boxes.
And like i have said. Money back if you are nit satisfying with attacking football playing of the combination of the 6 players i line up above. It will be too fast and too furious. It will be rock n roll. All of Rashford, Sancho, Martial and Chiesa are good on small areas. Same with Bruno Fernandes.
So back to the theme. United are really good with the combination and relations between Pogba, Rashford and Martial. But i do see United can become and improve alot more in the attack. If United buy and get Sancho and Chiesa in the future. Make the team complete in the attack.
Cross chiesa for Gomes and we got ourself a better & more balanced XI & also save us more cash.
Enormous potential. It's been so frustrating watching Martial be plonked out on the left wing the past two years when he's not a winger. It's been so frustrating watching Sanchez be signed and confuse/ block that side when finally there were promising signs there. It's been so frustrating Lukaku being around and Rashford and Martial often being seen as an either/or set.
It's refreshing to see our two young, vibrant, pacey forwards, highly rated all round Europe, finally be given the chance to go and cause havoc together. They will make mistakes, and frankly Martial I feel has had his development stunted by how he's been used, so I expect equal errors from them both. But I'm really excited to see them on the pitch together, close to each other, and how that partnership develops. A difficult one for PL defenders - if you've got one covered, where's the other? Because you probably won't catch him....
No my friend. Chiesa workrate and defensive ability, and aggressiveness are on same level as Rashford. Chiesa can track back a lot. Chiesa is a must have. Rashford and Martial will love the way Chiesa is playing football. Hard work, skillful and still a team player. Know when you have to pass the ball. The difference between the best and second best. Like Messi. Messi nearly 100% knows when to pass the ball and when to take on players.
But your can keep your opinion
These two have more than enough ability to be getting 20+ goals a season for us. Are either of them natural/instinctive goalscorers, probably not, but if they and others in the team consistently help contribute to goals, then we should be okay this season.
The main problem is potential injuries to them, as bar Mason, we are very short now upfront.
Rashford, Martial, Greenwood & Sancho as an interchanging front 3/4 with Pogba, McTominay & mobile/workhorse CM.
Waste of money instead of using what we already have with great talent.
I think it's more a lack of effort to get into those positions. He likes to drift to pick the ball up and is then happy to stay out there. When he is already in the box he very often gets on the end of things.
Rashford for years has just not been very clinical. I'd love him to turn it around but he hasn't yet. He really should be top scorer if he's on penalties and we don't have a dedicated number 9.
It's great that
1) They're not competing with each other and only 1 plays
2)Not kept out of the team by Lukaku
Both have a real chance to push on this year, especially as they can rotate positions.
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