Martial's sprint endurance (or lack there of)

[Jeffthered]

He’s the most frustrating player we have. He lacks that ruthless streak his peers possess in abundance and I think it’s laziness. He doesn’t make runs that gets him behind the defence line like Sane & Sterling....He’s so happy to receive the ball in front of the defence and then start his baby-step dribbling that doesn’t pay off all the time. I really think he’s not as intelligent as the hype surrounding him and his lack of intelligence hurts the team a great deal.

Martial will certainly lose his NT place to Mbappe as the teenager is more accomplished. Kylian understands the role much better - he doesn’t want to dribble all the time, sometimes a simple 1-2 ball gets you past a defence line or he should be making runs like Vardy does where an over the top ball is all that is required to get him 1v1 against the goalie.

He’s been a big disappointment this season. He has all the attributes to be a world class forward but the lack of intelligence and inherent laziness is killing him. As things stand, Sterling and Sane are light years ahead of him. Martial really needs to buckle up or leave the club. I’d take being effective on the pitch than the highlight dribbling he does every now & then. Those Highlight dribblings don’t hurt the opponents.

Good post. Martial has to impose himself (and all that 'talent' etc) on games. He doesn't do this.. and he looks so fed up at times. He needs to apply himself, Yes, he may be out of position.. but I tell you what, does he STILL NOT REALISE that he has to develop his game... cutting inside, ALL THE FLAMING TIME will LIMIT HIS DEVELOPMENT. He isn't a Messi, Ronaldo.... so he needs more. The guy isn't hungry enough to be a top, top player. He isn't hungry enough to develop and evolve his game. You can see it. That is about HIM.. not LVG, or Mourinho. He needs to APPLY and IMPOSE himself.

These players are not children.

 

[NYAS]

I maintain my belief that in light of the productive attacking players we have and their amazing potential (Lukaku/Martial/Rashford) and the fact that we have been struggling to find a suitable no. 10 for many years, the way to get the best out of our players is a 3-5-2/3-4-3.

Put Martial and Rashford behind Lukaku, playing off him, having a bit of freedom to roam and leave the width and wide defensive duties to Young and Valencia. We’ll need to upgrade both wing-back positions very soon but it provides great balance without necessarily taking away from our attacking power. You’d have two wide-men whipping in crosses and Lukaku staying in the box while Martial and Rashford take players on and make things happen and arrive in the box. Pogba can create in midfield and Matic will be supported by the middle CB of the 3 who would ideally have decent enough composure to play the ball out (Lindelof).

This gives Martial and Rashford much less defensive duties and we won’t have to see them in full-back positions when we don’t have the ball.

 

[Lennon7]

If we could find a way to play him in the Henry role, he’d be amazing. Maybe now Pogba’s back we could play 5 at the back and 3 upfront again.

 

[tony54]

For me the easy criticism to make of someone like Martial is that he can get predictable, just running straight at players and doesn't use enough of the skill he clearly has in his locker. It seems like he goes through the motions and takes the easy option sometimes.. all of these you see in a typical 'bad' performance of Martial. Now that has led many to call him lazy... but is it laziness, or a physical flaw he has?

Every young winger/wing forward who bursts onto the scene and aspires to greatness in addition to the natural talent that Martial has, has always tended to have the ability to run at speed all game. Think of the young Cristiano, Robben, even the lightweight that was Messi.. even before that think of Giggs.. and looking at his contemporaries at the moment Dembele, Mbappe, Sane, Sterling.. or Rashford himself, these guys are like greyhounds, they can run all game - most of the time.

Lukaku also shares this problem, they can't really run all day long.. I don't know if this is because they're more physically developed than your average elite striker/winger but not being able to be at the races all game is going to give opponents the opportunity to dominate phases of the game, even lesser opponents if they know you're not able to run at them for a while and hurt them.

Now when Martial plays as a second striker, it is less of an issue because he can playmake a little, and pick and choose when he wants to sprint with the ball but as a winger, you need to have that sprint endurance to take the opponent on at any given moment during that 90 minutes. You need to be a roadrunner to play out wide, and I don't think Martial has that innate stamina needed to be a really top top wing forward. Its the reason why someone like Griezmann who came on the scene as a winger, gradually moved inwards because he too would never have had the sprint endurance to last out wide at the very highest level week in week out. Hazard's endurance and passion for running loads out wide is diminishing by the seasons and he wants to move inside and run less.

I think it is a huge factor why he was dropped in the first place by Jose as he can't do the running needed out wide and why he needs constant rotation. Which begs the question, if we know he has this physical incompatibility with the demands of the position, why not focus on what he can bring to the game and play him up front or off Lukaku.. some of the best football he's played has been in that 3-5-2 as a second striker with the wing-back doing the running for him.

I know some will argue well as he matures that stamina should come and it is something he can work on, but there is limitations on how much he can really push that sprint endurance.. it needs to be compensated for tactically.. either by supporting him with a roadrunner electric left wing back and livewire striker, which means his lack of running throughout 90 minutes isn't that much of an issue or push him closer inside and let him roam (able to play at a slower pace but wreak havoc when he decides to go through the gears).

Thoughts?

 

[tony54]

I know some will argue well as he matures that stamina should come and it is something he can work on, but there is limitations on how much he can really push that sprint endurance.. it needs to be compensated for tactically.. either by supporting him with a roadrunner electric left wing back and livewire striker, which means his lack of running throughout 90 minutes isn't that much of an issue or push him closer inside and let him roam (able to play at a slower pace but wreak havoc when he decides to go through the gears).

Thoughts?[/QUOTE]
I agree, he doesn't seem to cover much ground to the point where you may think he has been told to stay up front and on the left. He doesn't seem to get involved in the match. For example, the Bristol city forwards ran and ran all over the pitch last night and frankly ran the legs off us. Yes, He can show flashes of brilliance but is becoming type cast now and doesnt seem to be putting much effort in for the team. Is it Mourino's influence or has he not got the stamina to do much running.

 

[Swift Football]

I think if we can sign some top quality wingbacks/wide midfielders and a good #10... than the 3-5-2 formation might suit (primarily us as a team and secondarily) Martial better.

I'm talking about this shape:

He's better playing off Lukaku around the box. Lukaku himself plays better with either Martial or Rashford near him to offer link up, rather than being a lone striker with the occasional support from Lingard. We have plenty of very decent CBs that can play that system and cover well enough for the occasionally absent wingbacks.

I think as long as Martial and Rashford are used as wide players with so much responsibility towards maintaining a team shape and tracking runners, they won't reach the potential they can reach as CFs.

Finally Mourinho alluded to working towards a formation like when he tried to sign Perisic. He said that he's happy with Martial as a wide forward but he wanted someone to play the wing back/wide midfielder role.

You are talking about 3 top players. If we can get top 3 players, any formation would be good for that matter.

As for Martial and Rashford having to track back, Last thing I want is to get our full back isolated and having to deal with 2 vs 1 situation. And if you are talking about setting up the formation that does not need our wide forwards to track back, then it means Pogba has to be more disciplined and has to be more fixed positionally, which is not ideal either.

 

[Rawls]

The problem we have is that Martial needs a highly technical forward to bounce ideas off of. He makes rapid give-and-goes all the time and really thrives in compacted scenarios, which is the antithesis of what those around him (except Pogba) want to do. Put a couple of technically strong players next to Martial, leave him high and central, and he will look like a different player to what we're seeing.

I think the problem here is two-fold. In order to thrive, Martial needs to be surrounded by highly technical players who like to play an incisive, quick-passing game. I agree with you in saying that out of our current squad, only Pogba can really play that type of game at an elite level; IIRC, there was some particularly good, incisive link-up play between Pogba and Martial away to Arsenal. It's irrefutable that we need signings in order to improve the general quality of both our side at large and our attack. However, it's almost impossible to buy a high-quality player at their peak, generally because they are at another big club. Therefore, I feel that you have to take a more riskier approach, and buy somewhat raw, young players, not for what they are but for what they potentially could be. For instance, I've seen bits and pieces of Malcom, and largely feel he's a bit raw (He is only 20 mind). Even though he came across as raw however, I still felt that he is the sort of player who could develop and thrive in a quick passing set-up i.e. the set-up we need in order to get the best out of Martial.

However, buying highly technical players is all well and good so long as you are able to get the best out of them. Unfortunately, I am very skeptical as to whether José will ever develop Martial. What's more, I think that the problems which have afflicted Martial since August 2016 are very much the same problems that will afflict highly-technical players if United were to sign them i.e. José is a sub-optimal developer of young attacking talent. Credit where credit is due, José has consistently coached very good defences, and has has also consistently succeeded in developing good CBs into great CBs. What he has not done however is consistently coach high-quality and structured attacks, or develop high-quality attackers. Ozil et al may have developed immensely during his tenure, but I would go so far as to say that those improvements came about because of the individuals themselves, not José. Of course, you could expect young players like Martial to develop of their own accord, but I think it would be a better approach to adopt a more hands-on approach. Sané and Sterling have both substantially improved at City this season thanks to Pep's more significantly hands-on approach; hypothetically, they might have developed anyway, but Pep's hands-on approach made sure they developed quickly and positively.

In all, we have a real need to improve the general level of our squad with regards to their technical ability; however, even if we were to buy highly-skilled attackers, the likes of Martial may not necessarily benefit if the manager is unable to best develop their skills.

 

[MadMike]

You are talking about 3 top players. If we can get top 3 players, any formation would be good for that matter.

We've managed to get 3 very good players (definitions of "top" differ among fans) each summer now. So I don't see why that would be a problem. But I don't agree that every formation would look good in that case. We have a 25 man squad of which 16-17 players make the core. 3 players are only 15% of that core. The majority of the core dictates what's the best formation to use, not the 3 players.

As for Martial and Rashford having to track back, Last thing I want is to get our full back isolated and having to deal with 2 vs 1 situation. And if you are talking about setting up the formation that does not need our wide forwards to track back, then it means Pogba has to be more disciplined and has to be more fixed positionally, which is not ideal either.

They won't be in a 2v1 situation if there's a LCB/RCB helping out, would they? That's the point of 3 at the back. To prevent the fullback from being outnumbered while allowing forward players to remain forward and relieving them of some of that defensive responsibility. Pogba wouldn't have to cover the fullbacks. But he'd have to cover the middle like he currently does. We already play him as part of CM duo with Lingard or Mkhi being the #10. no change there.

 

[Swift Football]

We've managed to get 3 very good players (definitions of "top" differ among fans) each summer now. So I don't see why that would be a problem. But I don't agree that every formation would look good in that case. We have a 25 man squad of which 16-17 players make the core. 3 players are only 15% of that core. The majority of the core dictates what's the best formation to use, not the 3 players.



They won't be in a 2v1 situation if there's a LCB/RCB helping out, would they? That's the point of 3 at the back. To prevent the fullback from being outnumbered while allowing forward players to remain forward and relieving them of some of that defensive responsibility. Pogba wouldn't have to cover the fullbacks. But he'd have to cover the middle like he currently does. We already play him as part of CM duo with Lingard or Mkhi being the #10. no change there.

What i was saying was you told we are just 2/3 players away from playing 3-5-2 ideally. So are we from playing 4-4-1-1 or 4-2-3-1 or any other formation just that the players we are going to buy will differ to suit the formation.

First of all, I doubt our Center halfs are good enough for us to truly excel in 3 at back formation. yes, we looked solid defensively at times with 3 at the back, but that came at a cost and that is sacrificing one player at midfield/attack.

Regarding our wide forwards not helping our wing backs to track the run, even if LCB/RCB helps, opponent can easily overload at one side, especially if they have false nine or clever number 10. Either POgba has to stay deep or one wide forward has to track back all the way to prevent being outmubered.

 

[Son Of Sam]

You're reinforcing the point of him being an actual striker shunted wide here. None of those players you've listed are as much of a sheer panic-induced threat in and around the box precisely because of Martial's close control and quick feet. All of those mentioned there have a much longer stride and dribble gait, which is suited to play further from the box and D.

Martial's fleet-footedness is akin to a young Kun Aguero (the Atletico version) or Cassano and it's almost a guarantee that he would draw countless fouls and pens or be allowed by by defenders too scared to stick a foot out in such close proximity to him. I was going to say Romario, but that's another level entirely, but the principle of short-burst, explosive dribbling in close quarters is prevalent in Martial just as it was the little Brazilian.

The problem we have is that Martial needs a highly technical forward to bounce ideas off of. He makes rapid give-and-goes all the time and really thrives in compacted scenarios, which is the antithesis of what those around him (except Pogba) want to do. Put a couple of technically strong players next to Martial, leave him high and central, and he will look like a different player to what we're seeing.

Even as a wide player, he, as a wing-forward in a 4-3-3, would look like a much better player than when asked to try and do the conventional tasks of a 2-way wide-man. Martial's skillset should rarely see him leave the final 3rd of the pitch, and all that running in the wrong direction is blunting a tool that should be sharp and ready for attacking phases of play whenever they emerge.

If we actually end up with a support-striker ala Griezmann or Dybala, I can't see Martial wanting to stick around for much longer, because they would be coming in to take what should be his position, and have him shunted permanently wide in a system that would require him to work backwards far too much, which is something he might opt out of if he can get a central gig elsewhere.

So you are saying the only problem he’s got is being played out of position? I think it’s more than that. Like I stated earlier, Martial has everything. He’s the most clinical finisher in our squad but he doesn’t apply himself at all.

Actually, if an opponent rubs him the wrong way twice in the opening 10 mins of any game, Martial’s game is done & dusted. The passion, verve and hunger suddenly disappears and he starts strutting around the pitch even when he loses the ball.

It’s simply not acceptable - unless you are Cristiano Ronaldo.....and we know Ronaldo is never contented. When he was here, kicking him is what drives him cos he would keep coming back for more. Who can forget his duels with Ashley Cole? That’s the kind of mentality Martial should have. Being played out of position is not even up to 5% of his flaws. His mentality & drive are questionable.

 

[AP88]

I think that's the problem;both he and Rashford operate better through the middle but they both can't play there. If we had a better wide right/left footed winger we'd be better

That’s the issue; for all of his faults, Van Gaal used Rashford as a central striker and gave Martial the freedom to be an inverting forward, and both benefitted from it; their development has been stunted by Mourinho. They’re not even being used as Sterling/Sane type wide forwards, they’re effectively secondary fullbacks in the top deck of Jose’s bus.

Their playing time in their respective natural roles is being stolen by the clearly less talented Lukaku and a past it, mercenary IKEA Andy Carroll.

 

[Kostur]

That’s the issue; for all of his faults, Van Gaal used Rashford as a central striker and gave Martial the freedom to be an inverting forward, and both benefitted from it; their development has been stunted by Mourinho. They’re not even being used as Sterling/Sane type wide forwards, they’re effectively secondary fullbacks in the top deck of Jose’s bus.

Their playing time in their respective natural roles is being stolen by the clearly less talented Lukaku and a past it, mercenary IKEA Andy Carroll.

It's incredible how much shit one can fit in just one post.

 

[gibers]

That’s the issue; for all of his faults, Van Gaal used Rashford as a central striker and gave Martial the freedom to be an inverting forward, and both benefitted from it; their development has been stunted by Mourinho. They’re not even being used as Sterling/Sane type wide forwards, they’re effectively secondary fullbacks in the top deck of Jose’s bus.

Their playing time in their respective natural roles is being stolen by the clearly less talented Lukaku and a past it, mercenary IKEA Andy Carroll.

People here are to blinkered not realisng no player can outwork a bad system. Not even a player like Messi can paper over Argenitnas awful structure.

When we have the ball we look clueless and all our thrashing of teams came at the end of games when they committed men forward. Mou cannot coach teams to be proactibve with the ball and depends on the oppsition coming on to us.

Give Conte, Klopp or Pep Martial and he would be on the Ballon D'Or shortlist.

 

[ash_86]

One thing martial need to do is to try and draw more fouls in the box. Not a lot of players can do this, but if you look at Hazard, Coutinho footballers with exceptional footwork , they keep shemmying in the box. A good 60-70 % chance that this act would draw a foul and we'll get a penalty. Martial could be that guy for us if he knows what he's doing and not just dribble pointlessly.

 

[ti vu]

People here are to blinkered not realisng no player can outwork a bad system. Not even a player like Messi can paper over Argenitnas awful structure.

When we have the ball we look clueless and all our thrashing of teams came at the end of games when they committed men forward. Mou cannot coach teams to be proactibve with the ball and depends on the oppsition coming on to us.

Give Conte, Klopp or Pep Martial and he would be on the Ballon D'Or shortlist.

Great cliche. Argentine has been coached by a coach who is praised for playing proper football for a while now. Guess what? They barely got qualified for WC having played majority of games under this new coach in underwhelming passion. Messi didn't stop scoring at Barcelona under certain coach who also coached Argentine. Oh it's the system again. Nothing to do with teammates' compatibility.

Ballon D'Or shortlist argument is funny. I didn't exactly see Sane, Sterling being shortlisted this year. I saw Edin Dzeko being shortlisted and who was sold as Pep's takeover while Aguero stopped being shortlisted. What the hell happened? Ragspiracy, perhaps?

 

[Rossa]

For me the easy criticism to make of someone like Martial is that he can get predictable, just running straight at players and doesn't use enough of the skill he clearly has in his locker. It seems like he goes through the motions and takes the easy option sometimes.. all of these you see in a typical 'bad' performance of Martial. Now that has led many to call him lazy... but is it laziness, or a physical flaw he has?

Every young winger/wing forward who bursts onto the scene and aspires to greatness in addition to the natural talent that Martial has, has always tended to have the ability to run at speed all game. Think of the young Cristiano, Robben, even the lightweight that was Messi.. even before that think of Giggs.. and looking at his contemporaries at the moment Dembele, Mbappe, Sane, Sterling.. or Rashford himself, these guys are like greyhounds, they can run all game - most of the time.

Lukaku also shares this problem, they can't really run all day long.. I don't know if this is because they're more physically developed than your average elite striker/winger but not being able to be at the races all game is going to give opponents the opportunity to dominate phases of the game, even lesser opponents if they know you're not able to run at them for a while and hurt them.

Now when Martial plays as a second striker, it is less of an issue because he can playmake a little, and pick and choose when he wants to sprint with the ball but as a winger, you need to have that sprint endurance to take the opponent on at any given moment during that 90 minutes. You need to be a roadrunner to play out wide, and I don't think Martial has that innate stamina needed to be a really top top wing forward. Its the reason why someone like Griezmann who came on the scene as a winger, gradually moved inwards because he too would never have had the sprint endurance to last out wide at the very highest level week in week out. Hazard's endurance and passion for running loads out wide is diminishing by the seasons and he wants to move inside and run less.

I think it is a huge factor why he was dropped in the first place by Jose as he can't do the running needed out wide and why he needs constant rotation. Which begs the question, if we know he has this physical incompatibility with the demands of the position, why not focus on what he can bring to the game and play him up front or off Lukaku.. some of the best football he's played has been in that 3-5-2 as a second striker with the wing-back doing the running for him.

I know some will argue well as he matures that stamina should come and it is something he can work on, but there is limitations on how much he can really push that sprint endurance.. it needs to be compensated for tactically.. either by supporting him with a roadrunner electric left wing back and livewire striker, which means his lack of running throughout 90 minutes isn't that much of an issue or push him closer inside and let him roam (able to play at a slower pace but wreak havoc when he decides to go through the gears).

Thoughts?

Good post!

I remember Giggs talking about how it became harder to run up and down the pitch as he got older. It was not down to reduced stamina as he recorded the best values at United at the time. He said it was down to energy; after going on a run down the wing, he felt drained. Therefore, he had to change his game. Some of it was because he started to lose some of his speed, but a lot of it was down to a lack of energy.

Martial doesn't quite strike me as the most energetic person, so he may well have the same kind of energy as a 33 year old Giggs had. He has the ability and the speed to run down the wing, but it drains him more than it would say Rashford. Martial is the better dribbler of the two, and he is able to dribble at great speed as well; however, he does seem to be catchable on longer runs simply because he appears unable to maintain his speed for very long, unlike what Giggs, Ronaldo and Nani were able to do. It's kind of strange though as Martial is just as fast as Rashford when he gets going, but he is, like you say, not seemingly able to maintain that kind of running through a match; nor does he seem able to exploit the spaces out on the wings either and time his runs well. He looks to be better closer to goal and preferably closer to the middle.

 

[jojojo]

Every young winger/wing forward who bursts onto the scene and aspires to greatness in addition to the natural talent that Martial has, has always tended to have the ability to run at speed all game. Think of the young Cristiano, Robben, even the lightweight that was Messi.. even before that think of Giggs.. and looking at his contemporaries at the moment Dembele, Mbappe, Sane, Sterling.. or Rashford himself, these guys are like greyhounds, they can run all game - most of the time.

Sprint endurance is one of the hardest things to learn, because it's something that actually requires the player to stop running. It's the opposite of what the crowd wants, if it happens in the wrong situation it will be the opposite of what the team needs as well.

For example, if a player runs (not jogs) for 15 seconds, he needs to switch to walking speed for at least 15 seconds, to recover. If he runs for 30 seconds, the recovery time is measured in minutes.

Where the winger has defensive duties, he's still got to take that formula into account. Even if that means they've got to keep one eye on the "what if this goes wrong" bit of the story. It's part of the reason why great wingers usually have favourite fullbacks.

 

[gerdm07]

I think his decision making is holding him back. One example was vs Bristol when he got by his defender and defender lunged to stop him so he was out of the play. Martial could have dribbled at the last defender and dribbled around him or force the defender to come to him pass to a teammate (as long as teammate is not offside). Instead Martial takes a shot just inside the box and the defender easily blocks it. It was just a golden opportunity to score and Martial's decision making failed him and his team.

I'm sorry to say but I'm beginning to think he is just not an intelligent player. I really want him to become the world class player he could become, but he needs to make much better decisions.

 

[Fortitude]

I think the problem here is two-fold. In order to thrive, Martial needs to be surrounded by highly technical players who like to play an incisive, quick-passing game. I agree with you in saying that out of our current squad, only Pogba can really play that type of game at an elite level; IIRC, there was some particularly good, incisive link-up play between Pogba and Martial away to Arsenal. It's irrefutable that we need signings in order to improve the general quality of both our side at large and our attack. However, it's almost impossible to buy a high-quality player at their peak, generally because they are at another big club. Therefore, I feel that you have to take a more riskier approach, and buy somewhat raw, young players, not for what they are but for what they potentially could be. For instance, I've seen bits and pieces of Malcom, and largely feel he's a bit raw (He is only 20 mind). Even though he came across as raw however, I still felt that he is the sort of player who could develop and thrive in a quick passing set-up i.e. the set-up we need in order to get the best out of Martial.

However, buying highly technical players is all well and good so long as you are able to get the best out of them. Unfortunately, I am very skeptical as to whether José will ever develop Martial. What's more, I think that the problems which have afflicted Martial since August 2016 are very much the same problems that will afflict highly-technical players if United were to sign them i.e. José is a sub-optimal developer of young attacking talent. Credit where credit is due, José has consistently coached very good defences, and has has also consistently succeeded in developing good CBs into great CBs. What he has not done however is consistently coach high-quality and structured attacks, or develop high-quality attackers. Ozil et al may have developed immensely during his tenure, but I would go so far as to say that those improvements came about because of the individuals themselves, not José. Of course, you could expect young players like Martial to develop of their own accord, but I think it would be a better approach to adopt a more hands-on approach. Sané and Sterling have both substantially improved at City this season thanks to Pep's more significantly hands-on approach; hypothetically, they might have developed anyway, but Pep's hands-on approach made sure they developed quickly and positively.

In all, we have a real need to improve the general level of our squad with regards to their technical ability; however, even if we were to buy highly-skilled attackers, the likes of Martial may not necessarily benefit if the manager is unable to best develop their skills.

I often think Martial runs off into cul de sacs because he believes rapid interplay has less chance of coming off than him going on a hero run. Pogba is always available and willing to play his part in any chain any other player is bold enough to instigate; Lukaku gets them right once in a while as does Lingard, but after that, there's nobody else who is drawn towards, or willingly makes himself available to be either the foil or the beneficiary of that kind of high stakes, highly technical interplay - Mata is so fleetingly in the team, he barely counts, same goes for Mhiktaryan - that can tear teams to shreds in a matter of seconds if done right. It comes down to both confidence and technical acumen, IMO, and when you have players who shy away from that kind of football, you kind of accept that it's beyond their capabilities and so a potential give-and-go, becomes a give and then a ball played un-ambitiously laterally, or even backwards whilst players like Martial and Pogba throw their hands up in frustration.

I mention this because with a better calibre of player, a lot of these things can work themselves out without the need for Jose to be any better than he currently is at developing offensive patterns and structure. At base ends, we see opportunities, even now, for these plays to develop, but absolutely no belief from the players on the ball that they can see it through. You switch such a player out for one with a higher technical level, and that issue is likely to evaporate. It doesn't mean we'll ever be a fluent and smooth machine under Jose, but we can certainly be a much better one than what we're seeing.

If we want to get the best out of players like Martial, and Pogba, these kind of purchases are essential. I think just as we saw at RM: enough talent ensures a good quality of football and there's no reason for us not to aspire to be something like that even if our names will obviously less stellar in the end.

What I would give for a midfield and forward line eager to come towards the ball and

 

[Fortitude]

So you are saying the only problem he’s got is being played out of position? I think it’s more than that. Like I stated earlier, Martial has everything. He’s the most clinical finisher in our squad but he doesn’t apply himself at all.

Actually, if an opponent rubs him the wrong way twice in the opening 10 mins of any game, Martial’s game is done & dusted. The passion, verve and hunger suddenly disappears and he starts strutting around the pitch even when he loses the ball.

It’s simply not acceptable - unless you are Cristiano Ronaldo.....and we know Ronaldo is never contented. When he was here, kicking him is what drives him cos he would keep coming back for more. Who can forget his duels with Ashley Cole? That’s the kind of mentality Martial should have. Being played out of position is not even up to 5% of his flaws. His mentality & drive are questionable.

Ronaldo isn't a benchmark for anybody, really. His will is probably top 5 if not top 3 of all time, so he's not a barometer for normal players going about their careers. I know what you mean by saying that, but he's at the extreme end of the spectrum when it comes to drive for improvement of self.

Martial's head does drop, but I'm not sure it's for the reasons you're putting forward, and he has looked extremely lively at times here when the play has been set up in the ways the best benefit his game. He's never far from being hooked, for a start, and that's going to mess with a young player's head at the best of times. I don't know if Jose is behind the player - I'm not saying he's not in his plans, but I would say the way Fergie would handle him and get what he wants out of him is polar opposite to what we see from Mourinho. Same goes for LVG, who assured the kid that he was a main man in the way he wanted to set the team up, and that saw him thrive and be risky, daring and expansive with what he would try. Please note, I'm not bashing the manager here, just saying different methods get different results and I personally believe Martial shines brightest when he feels his manager will stick with him through thick and thin. In fact, in the exact same way Jose treats Lukaku and how he treated Ibrahimovic last year - that's what Martial would thrive on, IMO.

 

[Posh Red]

Ronaldo isn't a benchmark for anybody, really. His will is probably top 5 if not top 3 of all time, so he's not a barometer for normal players going about their careers. I know what you mean by saying that, but he's at the extreme end of the spectrum when it comes to drive for improvement of self.

Martial's head does drop, but I'm not sure it's for the reasons you're putting forward, and he has looked extremely lively at times here when the play has been set up in the ways the best benefit his game. He's never far from being hooked, for a start, and that's going to mess with a young player's head at the best of times. I don't know if Jose is behind the player - I'm not saying he's not in his plans, but I would say the way Fergie would handle him and get what he wants out of him is polar opposite to what we see from Mourinho. Same goes for LVG, who assured the kid that he was a main man in the way he wanted to set the team up, and that saw him thrive and be risky, daring and expansive with what he would try. Please note, I'm not bashing the manager here, just saying different methods get different results and I personally believe Martial shines brightest when he feels his manager will stick with him through thick and thin. In fact, in the exact same way Jose treats Lukaku and how he treated Ibrahimovic last year - that's what Martial would thrive on, IMO.

I suppose it's a question then of whether he warrants that treatment. IMO he does but as a young player he will be up and down. What he could really do with is an experienced and productive right winger to take the weight of his shoulders. The player Mki should have been really.

 

[Sayros]

It’s pitiful to be honest. A player like him with all the natural abilities he’s got should be a national treasure. What a waste of talent.....

France are extremely spoiled with talent at the moment. There's no shame in being in and out of the team when you have players like Mbappe, Dembele, Lemar, and Coman to compete with. I think he is more talented than Coman, and I would take him over Kingsley but the notion that he should be a national treasure is difficult when you have guys like Dembele and Mbappe who are both younger and clearly better at the moment.

 

[Janson]

People here are to blinkered not realisng no player can outwork a bad system. Not even a player like Messi can paper over Argenitnas awful structure.

When we have the ball we look clueless and all our thrashing of teams came at the end of games when they committed men forward. Mou cannot coach teams to be proactibve with the ball and depends on the oppsition coming on to us.

Give Conte, Klopp or Pep Martial and he would be on the Ballon D'Or shortlist.

I'm sorry but, no he wouldn't.

 

[Janson]

I think his decision making is holding him back. One example was vs Bristol when he got by his defender and defender lunged to stop him so he was out of the play. Martial could have dribbled at the last defender and dribbled around him or force the defender to come to him pass to a teammate (as long as teammate is not offside). Instead Martial takes a shot just inside the box and the defender easily blocks it. It was just a golden opportunity to score and Martial's decision making failed him and his team.

I'm sorry to say but I'm beginning to think he is just not an intelligent player. I really want him to become the world class player he could become, but he needs to make much better decisions.

Same here. His decision making hasn't been great the whole time he's been here and there's no indiciation it's gonna improve either. It's something that should improve with time but it clearly hasn't and he's been playing professionally for a while now.

What @jojojo mentioned about knowing how to manage his running to get the most out of himself is of course also a part of this, not just deciding what to do with the ball.

 

[Bwuk]

I agree with the sentiments that Martial is a striker.

For me I think we would of been better suited giving him the #9 role this season and buying a winger instead of Lukaku.

Martial has all the talent in the world, we need to capitalise it. He's the only player in our squad near Pogbas level. (Apart from De Gea)

 

[Fortitude]

I suppose it's a question then of whether he warrants that treatment. IMO he does but as a young player he will be up and down. What he could really do with is an experienced and productive right winger to take the weight of his shoulders. The player Mki should have been really.

I'd add: 'for Jose,' to the bolded because it was clear that LVG saw him as 'the man' in his teams and sought to get the best out of him over anyone else in the attack.

I don't necessarily think we need to comparmentalise our players and elevate only 1 or 2 to the top bracket as it would be better for everyone if there were at least 3 elite calibre players across the midfield and attack who could pick up and share the strain in parallel with the others or even cover for them when they're having a bad game. A Pogba or Martial level talent is the norm at the biggest clubs and they are complemented with a number of other players of the same ability and that's where everyone of them gets the chance to come alive and really focus on whatever their specialties are.

Martial is a close-quarter dribbler who becomes more of a threat the closer to goal-scoring free kick and penalty box territory he gets - if we had him focusing on that for the majority of the game, as the specialist that he is, the whole unit gets a chance to go up a level and prosper off the back of the chaos those runs cause the opposition. He would also be more enthused because it's clearly what he loves doing.

The further you place him from those areas, the less effective he is and the more he has to rely on a reductive set of skills - he isn't a winger, he doesn't think like one, doesn't move on or off the ball like one, hates tracking back and has never learned to pace himself in the way wingers do through most of their formative years of development before we see the honed products in first team football - that are pretty foreign to him to get by.

 

[Foxbatt]

Martial in the box is much more dangerous than Lukaku.

 

[kouroux]

My point is that he doesn't have a place, he lost it a long time ago. Martial is trying to gain a place, not keep it.

Exactly, it will a serious sequence of very good matches from couple from terrible ones from his competition (injuries would certainly help his case). I suspect when the final is to be announced, Deschamps will go with safety and not take Martial to the WC.

 

[JPRouve]

Exactly, it will a serious sequence of very good matches from couple from terrible ones from his competition (injuries would certainly help his case). I suspect when the final is to be announced, Deschamps will go with safety and not take Martial to the WC.

Yeah, even injuries won't guarantee a place, the other players are all more versatile. Coman is the only real winger(and play both wings), Lemar is the only real wide playmaker, Mbappé is a better striker than Martial and plays on the right, Dembélé is just Dembélé. Then you have Payet, Fékir and Lacazette who could be in competition with him but they aren't even guaranteed to be in the list themselves.

 

[kouroux]

Yeah, even injuries won't guarantee a place, the other players are all more versatile. Coman is the only real winger(and play both wings), Lemar is the only real wide playmaker, Mbappé is a better striker than Martial and plays on the right, Dembélé is just Dembélé. Then you have Payet, Fékir and Lacazette who could be in competition with him but they aren't even guaranteed to be in the list themselves.

For him to have a serious chance, he needs to perform a little better for United and have truly eye catching moments in big games. Our football is not very good attacking wise so it sure doesn't help.

 

[mayurr]

Martial has the potential to surpass lukaku , ...its just that conditions aren't in his favor at club.

Im really shocked that he is being called predictable and one track pony in some of the comments. The way mourinho sets it up....there are not many runners off the ball in final third, there isnt much of the interchange between the front men that leaves him with only 2 options. Either cross or shoot. He's not a winger, he is a wide / center forward. His default setting makes him try to dribble and shoot. Thats what he does . He can perform the job what salah does for us...may be not the same output.

 

[Posh Red]

I'd add: 'for Jose,' to the bolded because it was clear that LVG saw him as 'the man' in his teams and sought to get the best out of him over anyone else in the attack.

I don't necessarily think we need to comparmentalise our players and elevate only 1 or 2 to the top bracket as it would be better for everyone if there were at least 3 elite calibre players across the midfield and attack who could pick up and share the strain in parallel with the others or even cover for them when they're having a bad game. A Pogba or Martial level talent is the norm at the biggest clubs and they are complemented with a number of other players of the same ability and that's where everyone of them gets the chance to come alive and really focus on whatever their specialties are.

Martial is a close-quarter dribbler who becomes more of a threat the closer to goal-scoring free kick and penalty box territory he gets - if we had him focusing on that for the majority of the game, as the specialist that he is, the whole unit gets a chance to go up a level and prosper off the back of the chaos those runs cause the opposition. He would also be more enthused because it's clearly what he loves doing.

The further you place him from those areas, the less effective he is and the more he has to rely on a reductive set of skills - he isn't a winger, he doesn't think like one, doesn't move on or off the ball like one, hates tracking back and has never learned to pace himself in the way wingers do through most of their formative years of development before we see the honed products in first team football - that are pretty foreign to him to get by.

Don't disagree with any of that mate. Good post

 

[Raees]

Bumping this as I honestly think his fitness has become a big obstacle IMO to him becoming the player we wanted him to be. I know the easy solution is 'stick him up front' but I think his natural athleticism is lacking in this regard generally irrespective of position. We expect him to be a road runner all game ala Rashford and for me he simply doesn't have that natural ability to run at the opposition all game.

He's basically a slightly post pomp Ronaldinho in terms of work-rate even at this relatively young age, and yet the game against West Ham I saw him being asked to cover the left back and then bomb forward - likewise in a two man up top set up, which involves less running than winger but still need to have a lot of work rate to basically be the striker and the left winger in a narrow set up and his energy just wasn't there compared to Rashford (who has the workrate but arguably lacks the quality at this moment in time).

Before I give up, next year I do still want to see him used as a 9 in a 3 man up top set up (last chance saloon) and get some brand new wide men as I think that is probably the only way of reducing his workload in terms of how much distance he needs to cover. He's just not cut out to run long distances week in week out.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Martial is a striker, I will repeat it until people stop with that nonsense. It's obvious and it has always been obvious, he isn't a wide player.

He'd make an horrific CF. No runs in behind, can't hold the ball up, zero off the ball movement, no aerial presence, finishing isn't actually that good.

 

[Raees]

He'd make an horrific CF. No runs in behind, can't hold the ball up, zero off the ball movement, no aerial presence, finishing isn't actually that good.

Which begs the question, where will he end up then if he doesn't make it as a left wing forward? what would you say is his best position considering his work rate?

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Which begs the question, where will he end up then if he doesn't make it as a left wing forward? what would you say is his best position considering his work rate?

He'll make it as a left wing forward, just at a smaller club with less expectations and pressure.

 

[Sylar]

Biggest issue for me with Martial is he always expects the ball to his feet. He doesnt have the off-the-ball movement that Sterling has now developed, which now sees Sterling score a lot of tap ins (granted Sterling plays with better players with him). However there are times where Martial with a bit of clever movement would be in better positions.

This is something he can still be taught though. (Sterling is one year older than Martial) I do agree that putting him out as wide and deep as we have done is a mistake. hes so much better as a finisher and closer to the opponents box.

He'd make an horrific CF. No runs in behind, can't hold the ball up, zero off the ball movement, no aerial presence, finishing isn't actually that good.

His early run when he joined us was a CF that drifted. He was pretty good until Rooney came back from injury and he was pushed out wide by LVG.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Biggest issue for me with Martial is he always expects the ball to his feet. He doesnt have the off-the-ball movement that Sterling has now developed, which now sees Sterling score a lot of tap ins (granted Sterling plays with better players with him). However there are times where Martial with a bit of clever movement would be in better positions.

This is something he can still be taught though. (Sterling is one year older than Martial) I do agree that putting him out as wide and deep as we have done is a mistake. hes so much better as a finisher and closer to the opponents box.



His early run when he joined us was a CF that drifted. He was pretty good until Rooney came back from injury and he was pushed out wide by LVG.

Certain players of ours are FOMO players. We are terrified of them going to another club and being a success that we grant them leeway when they don't perform here because they have "potential". It's one of the most dangerous traps to fall into.

 

[deadrevelz]

His fitness and work rate has looked poor apart from his first season. Back then he actually made runs with energy and scared defenders. Looks a bit like Lukaku now. The last chance for him is next season. Fingers crossed with the right conditioning and coaching he can get back on track. I don't see him as a winger though, should be played as CF, maybe slightly to the left if we play two forwards.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Which begs the question, where will he end up then if he doesn't make it as a left wing forward? what would you say is his best position considering his work rate?

West Ham.

Although he'd struggle to get a game over Felipe Anderson at the minute.

On a serious note, he's here now for the foreseeable and I guess we have to make the most of it, but I'm just not at all convinced he's worth the hassle and is capable of improving the flaws in his game. @Murder on Zidane's Floor's description of him as a FOMO player is incredibly apt.